John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I can hardly wait to see what happens. Oh wait, I really don't care. Thanks for nothing though.

[DragonLancer]

On one hand, i can completely understand why he would make an announcement about this issue.  So many people are interested in it and since he's made the whole thing public from the get-go it makes sense that he would continue with that.

 

On the other hand,  it seems a little celebrity that he is waiting to make an official announcement on a radio show rather than to just relate what took place and what the outcome was on his blog or Facebook page.

 

Dehlin's life has always been like a reality TV show for some people.

[Mystery Meat]

I can hardly wait to see what happens. Oh wait, I really don't care. Thanks for nothing though.

 

Why even comment then?

[why me]

Being exed for apostacy would not be good for john. He has already claimed that he is being disciplinced for his stances on gays and lesbians and gay marrige and ordain women support. These issues will keep him in the spotlight and increase donations for him whereas apostacy will not.

 

http://www.msnbc.com/the-cycle/watch/speaking-out-for-equality-396390979751

 

Since he is claiming that he may be exed because of his stance on equality, we can see the position that he will take in the public eye. I just hope that the church makes the decision clear point by point in order to take the sail out of a money making position.

Edited February 10, 2015 by why me

[stemelbow]

if excommunication is the verdict, as it seems he and many others assume, I hope the letter reads something like, "you are excommunicated for your public arguments and statements posed to dissuade people from believing the core elements of the faith, like your argument against the atonement, the creating of a public platform and followers used to criticize leaders of the Church, your continued effort to publicize private conversations amongst leaders of the Church, and your refusal to accommodate any attempted correction on the above. These reasons together constitute the sum of why you are excommunicated. You are not suffering this consequence for any one of the above, but all of the above, joined together. You are not being excommunicated for your personal convictions regarding your support for LGBT and women's issues. you are not being excommunicated for speaking out on equality issues.

you are most welcome to attend the Church, to associate with fellow Mormons and we will gladly and warmly welcome you into the waters of baptism if ever you wish to correct the reasons for your excommunication. We love you and hope the best for you."

And other such stuff. Anything ambiguous will be eaten up and more confusion, hurt, and criticism will result.

[ALarson]

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for ‘apostasy’

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2163720-155/mormon-critic-john-dehlin-is-excommunicated

[bluebell]

Dehlin's life has always been like a reality TV show for some people.

 

I don't mean this to be disrespectful to him, but i think that's part of the problem for Dehlin.  I think he's become accustomed to the spotlight and to being a bit of a celebrity to a specific group of people.  

 

I would never have thought it but after going thru a few years of dramatic trials i've learned that drama really can be addicting.  In many ways it is easier to deal with dramatic happenings than with a quiet life of living each day like everyone else does.  

 

I don't know him but his actions make me think that he's probably addicted to the drama right now and that he does whatever he needs to (maybe subconsciously) to keep that drama in his life.

[KevinG]

I was wrong...  The contents of the letter were shared.  By whom I don't know?

Edited February 10, 2015 by KevinG

[ALarson]

Interesting that these are the 2 reasons that John's Stake President gave for his excommunication:

 

 

The official charge against the founder of the "Mormon Stories" podcast was "conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church," but the letter from Dehlin's North Logan LDS stake president, Bryan King, called it "apostasy" and cited evidence for the unanimous decision:

 

• Dehlin's teachings disputing the nature of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ.

• His statements that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are fraudulent and works of fiction.

 

Edited February 10, 2015 by ALarson

[stemelbow]

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for ‘apostasy’

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2163720-155/mormon-critic-john-dehlin-is-excommunicated

the letter kept it pretty simple it seems. I'm sure he'll post the contents of it. I wonder how he's going to use it to talk about LGBT issues though. I guess we'll see.

[ksfisher]

Yes, section 6.10.4, item #8:  "Invite the person back into the council meeting to inform him of the decision."

 

Step 9 is to inform them of their right to appeal and Step 10 is to invite them to close the council with prayer.

 

There is a note that if the person has decided not to attend the council, the decision can be communicated by meeting with the individual or by other means if necessary (Kate Kelly case).

 

But, as I've stated a couple of times, the Handbook is a guide.  And in this case, I think that Dehlin created special circumstances through his own actions.  So I do not fault the SP for making adjustments to the process.

 

Then if the decision of the council that night was no decision tonight, then they followed procedure.

[KevinG]

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for ‘apostasy’

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2163720-155/mormon-critic-john-dehlin-is-excommunicated

 

From your link:

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for ‘apostasy’

By PEGGY FLETCHER STACK | The Salt Lake Tribune

10:33pm MST, February 10, 2015

 

 

Mormon critic and podcaster John Dehlin didn't have to wait long to find out the verdict of Sunday's church disciplinary council — he has been excommunicated from the LDS Church.

 

The official charge against the founder of the "Mormon Stories" podcast was "conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church," but the letter from Dehlin's North Logan LDS stake president, Bryan King, called it "apostasy" and cited evidence for the unanimous decision:

 

• Dehlin's teachings disputing the nature of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ.

 

• His statements that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are fraudulent and works of fiction.

 

• His statements and teachings that reject The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as being "the true church with power and authority from God."

 

King further notes that the Cache Valley-based podcaster has "spread these teachings widely via the Internet to hundreds of people in the past," and that Dehlin has said he plans to "continue to do so."

 

The action was not taken because Dehlin had doubts about the church or its history, the LDS leader wrote, but "because of your categorical statements opposing the doctrines of the church, and their wide dissemination via your Internet presence, which has led others away from the church."

 

Dehlin is free to criticize the church and to share his opinions, King wrote, but not "as a member in good standing."

 

Dehlin has said he expected to be ousted from the Utah-based faith.

 

The Salt Lake Tribune will update this story as more information becomes available.

[JLHPROF]

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for ‘apostasy’

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2163720-155/mormon-critic-john-dehlin-is-excommunicated

 

And just like Kate Kelly, was there ever any real doubt.  The apostasy was pretty clear, not that I'm judging, but the authorized judges clearly saw the same thing.

[rockpond]

Then if the decision of the council that night was no decision tonight, then they followed procedure.

 

That's not presented as an option in the instructions.

[KevinG]

That's not presented as an option in the instructions.

 

Neither is crowd control for protesters (excuse me, "followers in a vigil")  

Edited February 10, 2015 by KevinG

[Boanerges]

Interesting that these are the 2 reasons that John's Stake President gave for his excommunication:

• Dehlin's teachings disputing the nature of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ.

• His statements that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are fraudulent and works of fiction.

 

That's exactly what I expected it to say. It was never about gay rights and OW.

[Calm]

"conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church"

This is the standard language for such things, if any doesn't remember from Kelly's letter.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's exactly what I expected it to say. It was never about gay rights and OW.

He desperately needs it to be about those things, because those issues are key to his being able to excite public opinion against the Church. The public at large doesn't care so much about the other things.

[Daniel Peterson]

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

 

That's a very jaundiced and unjust view of men who, I'm sure, are good and sincere, and who didn't seek their positions.

 

I would have done the same thing.

 

Je suis Bryan King.

 

Feel free to call me a coward.

 

But, for greater credibility in doing so, use your real name.  

[Scott Lloyd]

From the Trib article, a crucial point that ought not be neglected in any discussion of this matter:

 

Dehlin is free to criticize the church and to share his opinions, King wrote, but not "as a member in good standing."

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

Men who were scared and weak would not have brought forth the disciplinary proceedings in the first place.

[mfbukowski]

Now we can have a thread with the following title:

 

"Any Word On The 11:00 Am Press Conference?"

Sigh.

 

Utah.

 

Double sigh.

[Brian 2.0]

It's obviously a matter of degrees of how much you are spreading your doubts, or "teaching" your disbeliefs, right?

I could post on Facebook that I don't believe in the BoM and that probably wouldn't result in any action.

So when does "public support" cross that line into teaching and leading people away?

There's plenty of blogs, sunstone articles, etc that had had equal amounts of apostaty as Dehlin. But is it because he has a bigger following and his effects are felt more?

Edited February 10, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[KevinG]

Sigh.

 

Utah.

 

Double sigh.

 

Let's start another Utah Mormon thread.  I hear Scott Lloyd loves those!  

[mfbukowski]

Crazy

 

the reason for the wait is the same story hashed out here all day long, yet played out in microcosm

 

Event happens, people without enough information speculate the motives, thoughts, and desires of parties involved based on their predisposition to believe one way or another.

 

we don't see the world for what it is, we see it for who we are