John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[DragonLancer]

I think he's loving all this publicity. No doubt he'll continue to say some informal comment from his SP some months ago about whether his support for LGBT was a problem will remain his main focus as he talks about his excommunication. But the letter interestingly doesn't mention it at all. Not even in a sly way. It's all about his public arguments against the Church's core doctrines.

 

I think publicity is why he didn't just remove his name from the Church, but made it a circus, and had his "supporters" hold the vigil and so forth.

[mfbukowski]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-responds-to-john-dehlins-public-comments

Sigh.

 

So sad that the church felt it needed to carry this parochial battle forward in a world-wide church.

 

I am sure the saints in Uganda are up in arms about all this.  Now Dehlin is known world-wide. 

 

 

Great.

 

Who manages the PR?

Edited February 10, 2015 by mfbukowski

[why me]

Here are some of the headlines from websites covering the decision.  One of these is not like the others.

 

 

Mormon critic John Dehlin is excommunicated for 'apostasy'

 

Mormon Stories founder Dehlin's spread of 'false concepts' results in excommunication

 

John Dehlin, Popular Mormon Podcaster, Excommunicated by Church

 

John Dehlin, 'Mormon Stories' Podcaster, Is Excommunicated For Apostasy

 

LDS church: Mormon blogger excommunicated for 'apostasy'

 

 

I think we can pick out the one from Deseret News.  The others are not so clear about the reasons for Dehlin's excommunication.  And the articles themselves are fairly sympathetic to Dehlin (although not as critical of the church as one might guess).  The only surprising thing is the Fox coverage, which included quotes from attendees at the vigil expressing fear of being silenced.  Fortunately, Fox doesn't allow comments to its story.  But the other websites do and as you can imagine, it's not pretty for Team Church.

 

Of course, you could argue that the Church isn't interested in its standing in the eyes of "infidels," but I could point to literally millions of dollars in the Internet campaigns, a feature motion picture and a Times Square billboard that says the Church is EXTREMELY interested in its public image.

Team church is a winner in this one. Any church that shows some spunk when it comes to wayward members sends a no nonsense message to the world. And its public image is intact. The lds church is a church which has policies in place to handle members who are publically leading people away from the church. And what is the public image of the church after john? Strong and vibrant. John did commit apostacy againt the church. And john know it too. He should have been exed a few years ago. The church was patient and lenient with john for many years so much so that he became the hulk of critic mormonism. Something had to be done before it got out of hand.

 

You should join team church.

Edited February 10, 2015 by why me

[Brian 2.0]

Team church is a winner in this one. Any church that shows some spunk when it comes to wayward members sends a no nonsense message to the world. And its public image is intact. The lds church is a church which has policies in place to handle members who are publically leading people away from the church. And what is the public image of the church after john? Strong and vibrant. John did commit apostacy againt the church. And john know it too. He should have been exed a few years ago. The church was patient and lenient with john for many years so much so that he became the hulk of critic mormonism. Something had to be done before it got out of hand.

You should join team church.

I will say this will not nearly have the negative press that the Kate Kelly action did. Her plight was equality for women, which is easy to get behind and can make the church look old fashioned.

Disbelief in old papyri, historicity of the BOM, etc is not nearly as salacious.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sigh.

 

So sad that the church felt it needed to carry this parochial battle forward in a world-wide church.

 

I am sure the saints in Uganda are up in arms about all this.  Now Dehlin is known world-wide. 

 

 

Great.

 

Who manages the PR?

Put yourself in the position of Church leaders and Church public affairs who at times such as this are besieged with inquiry from news media representatives.

 

Instead of responding to each individually -- an incredibly difficult if not impossible task -- it makes far more sense to put a uniform position on a website to which inquiring individuals can be directed. That is largely the purpose for which "Mormon Newsroom" was created. From my outside observation (I don't work for Church public affairs) it has worked pretty well so far.

 

Moreover, when the matter is being followed by the likes of the New York Times and other national media, I don't think it accurate to characterize it as a "parochial battle."

Edited February 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

Dehlin is no more a world-wide threat than I am, because he is on the internet.

 

Guess what?

 

If you have an internet connection and a computer, you too can go "worldwide"

 

There are all kinds of wrong people on the internet, and the church has not deigned to take them on individually.

 

Edit- Scott- I was writing this as you posted your reply above, and had not seen it.   I guess I anticipated your "reply".

Edited February 10, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

But as the leader of such a group it is hard not to let your sways in your own journey bleed trough to that "space" and by so you have given it the slant you were so trying to avoid.

And yet he claims in the podcast (or so I am told) that he expected to be excommunicated right from the beginning ten years ago.  Puts a different light imo on the "sways in [his] journey".

[Calm]

Sigh.

 

So sad that the church felt it needed to carry this parochial battle forward in a world-wide church.

 

I am sure the saints in Uganda are up in arms about all this.  Now Dehlin is known world-wide. 

 

 

Great.

 

Who manages the PR?

I don't see it as parochial.  Dehlin's 'world' is the internet (for the most part), the Church responded on the Internet.  Seems appropriate to respond in the same media that an apostate is using.

Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[tonie]

what did JD say about the Book Of Abraham - what quotes or quote could have been relied on?

[stemelbow]

I don't know if anyone else listened to the interview today. He seemed very upset that the letter focused on the core teachings that he's publically argued against, trying to get people to buy into his perspective and as doing so has led people out of the Church. he kept saying things like, "many LDS remain in the Church but don't believe the BoA is historical" without noting his public platform he's created to continually argue his criticisms of the Church. no one in the Church has created such a platform but him. And as the letter points out, he's led people out of the Church, which at one point he gladly boasted about.

I think he really wanted something in the letter to say in some way that his support for LGBT was part of it. In the interview he kept referring back to an informal statement by his SP that support for SSM was a problem, hoping to make it appear that this was a factor.

[Calm]

Why wouldn't the First Presidency and Apostles welcome ideas to keep members and families together?  Waiting for prophecies doesn't mean you cannot listen.

What makes you think they don't?  And if they really care, they would be very careful about not jumping on every bandwagon that claims to be the solution and actually search out ones that really work.

 

Just because someone claims and even believes that what they are doing keeps members and families together does not mean they are actually effective at doing so.  I have heard a number of reports from families where they believe that Dehlin's work has driven a wedge between their members.  Dehlin himself has said he has helped more people out of the Church then to stay in.  Research shows that interfaith couples are less likely to stay marry.  Therefore Dehlin's work is more likely to resort in a family splitting up than staying together by his own account.

Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Does anyone have a summary or transcript of Dehlin's public comments?

Which ones?

 

(it would be a full time job transcripting all his public statements….yes, that is snide, yes, I am somewhat tired of his grabbing the spotlight every time he can….I was not impressed by the way he used his wife for the vigil, even if she was likely willing and maybe even volunteered)

Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

I wonder how his wife feels about his excommunication knowing her temple sealing is now void.

[cinepro]

I've got to say that I think that's a really, really well-written letter.  

I've been seeing the comments from Dehlin's supporters on Facebook and other forums, and honestly, it's getting to the point where they are almost willfully deluding themselves.  They are desperately creating an alternate reality where Dehlin was some kind of Galileo, when in the end his excommunication wasn't much more than a garden variety apostasy (although much more publicized).  

He stopped believing in the core doctrines of the Church, he shouted it far and wide and got other people to follow him, and that wasn't kosher with the Church.

That's not as interesting a narrative, and it doesn't make the Church look like an evil totalitarian regime, but ultimately that's what it was.  Oh well.  I'm always kind of disappointed when a story ends exactly the way I expected it to, but I can't say I'm surprised.

 

It is also my impression that, to the degree there was any deception, people show their true stripes after they are disciplined.   I was recently talking with a relative who served in a HC years ago, and the subject of Church discipline came up, and he said there were actually some people who were very humbled and repentant as a result of the process, and found their way back to the Church.  And there were others who went out like Homer Simpson.

 

So there won't be much debate about Dehlin in the future.  I suspect we'll see exactly what his true stripes are, and I hope it's more of the former than the latter.

[KevinG]

Which ones?

 

Post announcement of the excommunication.  The press conference.

[Scott Lloyd]

Dehlin is no more a world-wide threat than I am, because he is on the internet.

 

Guess what?

 

If you have an internet connection and a computer, you too can go "worldwide"

 

There are all kinds of wrong people on the internet, and the church has not deigned to take them on individually.

 

Edit- Scott- I was writing this as you posted your reply above, and had not seen it.   I guess I anticipated your "reply".

I think camoriah's post (#83) is pertinent to this.

 

I would just add that the "all kinds of wrong people on the Internet" are not currently determined to put their very recent excommunication on the world stage and have not largely succeeded in doing so.

[Calm]

I agree that the church should not allow someone to give a talk in sacrament meeting about why he doesn't believe some fundamental truth claims of the church. But expression of that view publicly outside of church shouldn't be grounds of excommunication... in my opinion.

I think it is not just expression of that view, but promotion of the view from what I've seen of who has been disciplined and who hasn't over the years.  There is, imo, a significant difference.

Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[KevinG]

What makes you think they don't?  And if they really care, they would be very careful about not jumping on every bandwagon that claims to be the solution and actually search out ones that really work.

 

Just because someone claims and even believes that what they are doing keeps members and families together does not mean they are actually effective at doing so.  I have heard a number of reports from families where they believe that Dehlin's work has driven a wedge between their members.  Dehlin himself has said he has helped more people out of the Church then to stay in.  Research shows that interfaith couples are less likely to stay marry.  Therefore Dehlin's work is more likely to resort in a family splitting up than staying together by his own account.

 

Add to that the eternal perspective that the only way to keep families together forever is through Christ's church, its ordinances and covenants.  Why on earth would the brethren think a temporary peace bought by destroying faith would be of more value than an eternal increase?

 

This brings me to the short and sweet difference between faithful questions and apostasy.  

 

Do your actions lead people unto Christ or away from Christ?

[Calm]

I think he really wanted something in the letter to say in some way that his support for LGBT was part of it. In the interview he kept referring back to an informal statement by his SP that support for SSM was a problem, hoping to make it appear that this was a factor.

If he himself was continually bringing up SSM in the interviews as it appears he was, it is hardly surprising that the SP would say something about it.  If he ever releases the recordings he made without the SP's permission to prove his claims that, yes, the SP said something about SSM to him, it will be interesting to see if it backfires on him….a quote here and there can come across quite differently when one has the tone of what was said.

[KevinG]

I would love to hear the Stake President reply by saying, "I counsel people that drinking coffee is a problem too, but I've yet to excommunicate someone over it".

 

That is probably why I'm not a Stake President.  

[stemelbow]

I've been seeing the comments from Dehlin's supporters on Facebook and other forums, and honestly, it's getting to the point where they are almost willfully deluding themselves.  They are desperately creating an alternate reality where Dehlin was some kind of Galileo, when in the end his

I agree...it's been quite a spectacle.

[rongo]

 

 

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

The formal letter would always be at least the next day, *at the very earliest.* Usually (in my experience, always, but there are extenuating circumstances), the decision is announced to to the person at the conclusion of the council. I always was one of the the MP holders delivering the letter announcing the DC (with one of my counselors, who would also be present. I figured that limited the scope of people being aware of it), and I always delivered the letter afterwards myself. That was my preference. 

 

The letter takes a lot of prayerful thought, so there's not really a way you can have that "ready to go" at the end of a DC. I can understand waiting a couple of days to announce to the people involved in Kelly's and Dehlin's cases.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If you are in a temple marriage, if one of you gets ex'd does it make the temple sealing void? What happens to the faithful member? Does he or she lose their chance at exaltation because of their ex'd spouse?

[rongo]

One other thing:

 

I've heard people speculate that the delay in the decision might have been because it wasn't unanimously sustained by the members of the high council. The decision in a DC is solely that of the stake president or bishop. While the others involved give input, ask questions, and are asked to sustain a decision, refusing to sustain wouldn't "veto" the decision (unless the priesthood leader won't move forward without unanimity). 

[rongo]

If you are in a temple marriage, if one of you gets ex'd does it make the temple sealing void? What happens to the faithful member? Does he or she lose their chance at exaltation because of their ex'd spouse?

No. The sealing ordinance is still intact for innocent parties to the sealing. While excommunication dissolves the sealing for the person who is excommunicated, it doesn't "nullify" the sealing for the innocent spouse or children.