Panel About The Conference

[rockpond]

I see their request as not being inspired by the Spirit, considering the way they went about expressing and justifying their goal.

 

Also, as they said (on the blog), they requested it because they would "like to see" it, it was important to them, and this is how they felt about it, what it means to them, etc. Check their own website and their instructions on writing the letters and the samples. It is geared toward expressing their concern. There is no indication in the instructions or the sample letters of seeking the Spirit or to making a prayerful consideration about what they are doing.

 

So I see the movement as an example of politics affecting the campaigners' attitudes and perspectives on this point rather than the Spirit influencing the campaigners' politics on this point.

 

I agree that the campaign was not presented in any way that reflected a desire to invoke inspiration (at least from what I've seen of it).  But, again, my point is that those who initiated the effort may have felt inspired to do so -- whether they publicly proclaimed that or not.  We certainly have no more info that the decision made by the church was inspired.

[CV75]

I agree that the campaign was not presented in any way that reflected a desire to invoke inspiration (at least from what I've seen of it).  But, again, my point is that those who initiated the effort may have felt inspired to do so -- whether they publicly proclaimed that or not.  We certainly have no more info that the decision made by the church was inspired.

 

Of course they may have "felt inspired"--politically, emotionally, culturally, ideologically, socially, etc.--why else do it? Suggesting that the Church leaders may have been as "inspired" as LWP's initiators doesn't spiritually elevate the source of LWP's inspiration at all. If you don't know, you don't know, and that is fine. But don't suggest that "we" don't have the info to tell the difference because from what I do know and explained from the scriptures, and comparing how the two parties behaved, it is certainly reasonable to accept that the Church was inspired by the Spirit on this point, and that the LWP members were not.

[rockpond]

Of course they may have "felt inspired"--politically, emotionally, culturally, ideologically, socially, etc.--why else do it? Suggesting that the Church leaders may have been as "inspired" as LWP's initiators doesn't spiritually elevate the source of LWP's inspiration at all. If you don't know, you don't know, and that is fine. But don't suggest that "we" don't have the info to tell the difference because from what I do know and explained from the scriptures, and comparing how the two parties behaved, it is certainly reasonable to accept that the Church was inspired by the Spirit on this point, and that the LWP members were not.

 

It's only speculation to suggest that the church leaders were inspired of the Spirit and the LWP originators were not.

 

If you believe that women praying in conference was what the Lord wanted, then it's "reasonable to accept" that the Spirit could communicate that to all parties.

[CV75]

It's only speculation to suggest that the church leaders were inspired of the Spirit and the LWP originators were not.

 

If you believe that women praying in conference was what the Lord wanted, then it's "reasonable to accept" that the Spirit could communicate that to all parties.

You asserted your speculation about the parties' inspiration based on what you don't know about the LWP, the Church, the leaders; you further tried to place limitations on what I do know based on your own lack of evidence.

 

But I asserted my position about the parties' inspiration based on what I actually know about the LWP, the Church, the leaders and the scriptures (including the addage, "by their fruits ye shall know them"), by study and observation.

 

I do believe that women praying in conference is what the Lord wants, and that it is more reasonable to accept that He reveals His will to His servants the prophets through spiritual and not political means, and that LWP participants were operating from an ego-centric, political perspective.

 

Having admitted that you do not know, I think you would be better off acknowledging that everyone is free to believe what he wants than to assert that someone else cannot know based only on what you cannot see or believe or accept as evidence.

[rockpond]

You asserted your speculation about the parties' inspiration based on what you don't know about the LWP, the Church, the leaders; you further tried to place limitations on what I do know based on your own lack of evidence.

 

But I asserted my position about the parties' inspiration based on what I actually know about the LWP, the Church, the leaders and the scriptures (including the addage, "by their fruits ye shall know them"), by study and observation.

 

I do believe that women praying in conference is what the Lord wants, and that it is more reasonable to accept that He reveals His will to His servants the prophets through spiritual and not political means, and that LWP participants were operating from an ego-centric, political perspective.

 

Having admitted that you do not know, I think you would be better off acknowledging that everyone is free to believe what he wants than to assert that someone else cannot know based only on what you cannot see or believe or accept as evidence.

 

I do acknowledge that everyone is free to believe what they want.  It was your "I know" statement in post 199 that, I believe, was a step too far and required justification.  If it's what you believe, I accept it as your belief.  (Your final sentence above leads me to think that maybe you use "believe" and "know" somewhat interchangeably so maybe we weren't even using the same vocabulary.)

 

I think I've acknowledged multiple times that it's possible that church leadership made the decision to allow women to pray completely independently of the LWP campaign.  But the coincidence of that occurring at the same time as the LWP campaign after 180 years (or even 34 years) seems to suggest otherwise.

 

I do agree with you that the Lord reveals His will to His servants, the Prophet & Apostles who lead this church.  All I'm proposing is my belief in the likelihood that the LWP campaign triggered the Brethren to go and ask.  To seek the inspiration that led to the decision.

[Kenngo1969]

Is the LWP group entitled to receive revelation governing the entire Church?

Apparently ... (at least, according to some. ).

Edited October 23, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

I do acknowledge that everyone is free to believe what they want.  It was your "I know" statement in post 199 that, I believe, was a step too far and required justification.  If it's what you believe, I accept it as your belief.  (Your final sentence above leads me to think that maybe you use "believe" and "know" somewhat interchangeably so maybe we weren't even using the same vocabulary.)

 

I think I've acknowledged multiple times that it's possible that church leadership made the decision to allow women to pray completely independently of the LWP campaign.  But the coincidence of that occurring at the same time as the LWP campaign after 180 years (or even 34 years) seems to suggest otherwise.

 

I do agree with you that the Lord reveals His will to His servants, the Prophet & Apostles who lead this church.  All I'm proposing is my belief in the likelihood that the LWP campaign triggered the Brethren to go and ask.  To seek the inspiration that led to the decision.

Vocabulary might have something to do with it, but as I explained in #279, the actual approach used in looking at the events and the available information has a great deal to do with making an assessment of likelihood. What is “likely” from one approach is “unlikely” from another. For example, keeping D&C 50 and 88 out of the equation, so many things in the Church are accomplished in the least likely manner. But keeping these scriptures in mind, it is most likely that the Church’s accomplishments are the product of adhering to the principles in D&C 50 and 88, which pretty much rule out coincidences and political triggers as factors in the process.

 

So the mere coincidence of the campaign and the decision doesn’t necessarily add up to the likelihood that the LWP campaign triggered the Brethren to make a decision when the spiritual process that we know as the norm is considered. An extreme example is that it could be said that both God and the devil “wanted” Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit; one employing a divine method for an exalted aim and the other a devilish method for a debased aim. The coincidence of the devil tempting them and the Savior redeeming them doesn’t mean the devil was inspired by the Spirit to temp them or that he triggered the Savior’s intervention, since He had planned to already.

 

An example of how "unlikely" things are to get done in the Church is found in Elder Bednar's recent talk about tithing (two scriptural instructions instead of volumes of administrative protocols).

[rockpond]

Vocabulary might have something to do with it, but as I explained in #279, the actual approach used in looking at the events and the available information has a great deal to do with making an assessment of likelihood. What is “likely” from one approach is “unlikely” from another. For example, keeping D&C 50 and 88 out of the equation, so many things in the Church are accomplished in the least likely manner. But keeping these scriptures in mind, it is most likely that the Church’s accomplishments are the product of adhering to the principles in D&C 50 and 88, which pretty much rule out coincidences and political triggers as factors in the process.

 

So the mere coincidence of the campaign and the decision doesn’t necessarily add up to the likelihood that the LWP campaign triggered the Brethren to make a decision when the spiritual process that we know as the norm is considered. An extreme example is that it could be said that both God and the devil “wanted” Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit; one employing a divine method for an exalted aim and the other a devilish method for a debased aim. The coincidence of the devil tempting them and the Savior redeeming them doesn’t mean the devil was inspired by the Spirit to temp them or that he triggered the Savior’s intervention, since He had planned to already.

 

An example of how "unlikely" things are to get done in the Church is found in Elder Bednar's recent talk about tithing (two scriptural instructions instead of volumes of administrative protocols).

 

Our church history seems to show that there is often something that triggers the Prophet or other church leaders to seek guidance, answers, inspiration which often leads to the receipt of revelation.

[CV75]

Our church history seems to show that there is often something that triggers the Prophet or other church leaders to seek guidance, answers, inspiration which often leads to the receipt of revelation.

Yes, often there is, and often it just seems there is (or is not). Coincidence is ceratinly not cause and effect. Co-incidence does not mean that (a) there was a "trigger"; (b) the event or person doing the "triggering" was necessarily inspired; or © the outcome wasn't on its way through an unrelated, less apparent processes.  Each revelation has to be assessed according to the best information available, which is what I'm doing with women having been assigned to pray in General Conference.

[rockpond]

Yes, often there is, and often it just seems there is (or is not). Coincidence is ceratinly not cause and effect. Co-incidence does not mean that (a) there was a "trigger"; (b) the event or person doing the "triggering" was necessarily inspired; or © the outcome wasn't on its way through an unrelated, less apparent processes.  Each revelation has to be assessed according to the best information available, which is what I'm doing with women having been assigned to pray in General Conference.

 

While I agree that what you are saying is possible, the striking coincidence COULD indicate that the LWP campaign was the trigger, that the sisters behind it were inspired, and that the outcome may have been even further delayed without their work.

 

I too have made my best assessment given the best information available.

Edited October 23, 2013 by rockpond

[Stone holm]

While I agree that what you are saying is possible, the striking coincidence COULD indicate that the LWP campaign was the trigger, that the sisters behind it were inspired, and that the outcome may have been even further delayed without their work.

 

I too have made my best assessment given the best information available.

 

Causation is tough thing to prove.  I sometimes think the Brethren delay certain things so it appears they are immune to pressure...but that is just my cynicism showing through....not sure which is worse intense credulity or cynicism...must be a center position somewhere.

[CV75]

While I agree that what you are saying is possible, the striking coincidence COULD indicate that the LWP campaign was the trigger, that the sisters behind it were inspired, and that the outcome may have been even further delayed without their work.

 

I too have made my best assessment given the best information available.

Still, coincidence is not a vaild indicator, and this seems to be the primary basis for drawing your conclusions.

 

Rather than a "trigger," it makes more sense that the Brethren were inspired along the same trajectory the Church has been taking for many years, which was going on independent of (although obviously concurrent with) any campaigns. Inspiration is aligned more with intent and process than it is with outcome; intents direct the form and source of inspiration and the methods to employ it regardless of how successful the outcome. The outcome is the outcome regardless of the initiating intents and inspiration.

 

No doubt you're making your best assesment, but I don't think coincidence represents the best information available.

[rockpond]

Still, coincidence is not a vaild indicator, and this seems to be the primary basis for drawing your conclusions.

 

Rather than a "trigger," it makes more sense that the Brethren were inspired along the same trajectory the Church has been taking for many years, which was going on independent of (although obviously concurrent with) any campaigns. Inspiration is aligned more with intent and process than it is with outcome; intents direct the form and source of inspiration and the methods to employ it regardless of how successful the outcome. The outcome is the outcome regardless of the initiating intents and inspiration.

 

No doubt you're making your best assesment, but I don't think coincidence represents the best information available.

 

What is the trajectory that the Church has been taking for many years?

[CV75]

What is the trajectory that the Church has been taking for many years?

To be led in the way that is pleasing to the Lord!

On this subject of women praying in General Conference, the trajectory has been that the innate moral power and authority of women (just as men, youth and children) has been playing an expanding role in the Church organization and functioning to hasten the work of the Lord under the direction of His authorized servants. I think the lowering of the age of missionaries, and the emphasis on senior missions in recent years, the increase in temple building and other initiatives that require greater unity and harnessing of the saints' spiritual power is part of this hastening as well. Women praying in Conference contributes to that expansion of involvement, not for the sake of political causes, but for the benefit of all as we unite in prayer to hasten the work. I see this aspect of the trajectory as a deployment of resources that have been under development for a long time, at the needed time, under the direction of His authorized servants (yes, I'm emphasizing that point).

 

The trajectory (path) of the Lord is right, straight and narrow, plain, well-lit and difficult for the unwise, untested and rebellious to navigate. His course is one eternal round. I keep referring to D&C 88, where He grants His mortal authorities light in His own due time, and sequentially over the dispensations and through the Restoration.

 

D&C 88 is speaking spiritually of spiritual things happening within in a temporal frame. Since His spiritual "trajectory" (course / tour of the field) occurs within a certain number of "hours," we cannot rightly extrapolate an ultimate conclusion based on imagination and mortal politics. His thoughts and ways are not ours; they are spiritual, and not carnal, sensual, devilish, etc. This is why we work according to the Spirit and councils and build upon prior accomplishments of those previous servants in the field having done the same.

[rockpond]

To be led in the way that is pleasing to the Lord!

On this subject of women praying in General Conference, the trajectory has been that the innate moral power and authority of women (just as men, youth and children) has been playing an expanding role in the Church organization and functioning to hasten the work of the Lord under the direction of His authorized servants. I think the lowering of the age of missionaries, and the emphasis on senior missions in recent years, the increase in temple building and other initiatives that require greater unity and harnessing of the saints' spiritual power is part of this hastening as well. Women praying in Conference contributes to that expansion of involvement, not for the sake of political causes, but for the benefit of all as we unite in prayer to hasten the work. I see this aspect of the trajectory as a deployment of resources that have been under development for a long time, at the needed time, under the direction of His authorized servants (yes, I'm emphasizing that point).

 

The trajectory (path) of the Lord is right, straight and narrow, plain, well-lit and difficult for the unwise, untested and rebellious to navigate. His course is one eternal round. I keep referring to D&C 88, where He grants His mortal authorities light in His own due time, and sequentially over the dispensations and through the Restoration.

 

D&C 88 is speaking spiritually of spiritual things happening within in a temporal frame. Since His spiritual "trajectory" (course / tour of the field) occurs within a certain number of "hours," we cannot rightly extrapolate an ultimate conclusion based on imagination and mortal politics. His thoughts and ways are not ours; they are spiritual, and not carnal, sensual, devilish, etc. This is why we work according to the Spirit and councils and build upon prior accomplishments of those previous servants in the field having done the same.

 

Ahhh... good.  Something we can both agree on!  Well said.  Amen.

Edited October 24, 2013 by rockpond

[Stone holm]

Ahhh... good.  Something we can both agree on!  Well said.  Amen.

Actually would characterize it as a slow retreat from a non sustainable cultural position punctuated periodically by reactionary rhetoric and interrupted by occasional political alliances with ultra conservative non Mormon religious voices.

[rockpond]

Actually would characterize it as a slow retreat from a non sustainable cultural position punctuated periodically by reactionary rhetoric and interrupted by occasional political alliances with ultra conservative non Mormon religious voices.

Well... Two sides. Same coin.

[Stone holm]

Well... Two sides. Same coin.

Its a toss...once won an election on a coin toss, although there were times hen I wondered if I had truly one or lost.

[CV75]

Ahhh... good.  Something we can both agree on!  Well said.  Amen.

Great! I think it is good to consider that it takes quite a number of generations of faithful women and priesthood service to prepare for the Lord's Coming according to the righteous principles laid out in scripture. These involve "the shaping sound of lullabies …the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods … what happened in cradles and kitchens …the everlasting family…, a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, The Women of God, Ensign (CR), May 1978, p.10).”

[CV75]

Its a toss...once won an election on a coin toss, although there were times hen I wondered if I had truly one or lost.

No, the same coin can purchase a turd or a vitamin!

[rockpond]

Great! I think it is good to consider that it takes quite a number of generations of faithful women and priesthood service to prepare for the Lord's Coming according to the righteous principles laid out in scripture. These involve "the shaping sound of lullabies …the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods … what happened in cradles and kitchens …the everlasting family…, a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, The Women of God, Ensign (CR), May 1978, p.10).”

 

Wow, fascinating choice of a quote to respond with.

[Stone holm]

Wow, fascinating choice of a quote to respond with.

 

Yep, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen....got keep them peacemakers busy, and the male function is to go out and stir up strife, hatred and war...oh the tragedy of fate to land in that role....

[juliann]

Great! I think it is good to consider that it takes quite a number of generations of faithful women and priesthood service to prepare for the Lord's Coming according to the righteous principles laid out in scripture. These involve "the shaping sound of lullabies …the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods … what happened in cradles and kitchens …the everlasting family…, a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, The Women of God, Ensign (CR), May 1978, p.10).”

When I see that many ellipses, I always go to the source to see what has been removed.  He is comparing what happens in the home, which is women's space vs. "the word".  Somebody has to sing those lullabies, if men were doing it, his point would still stand. We do have a home based theology so it is not nearly as sinister as you seem to want to make it.   This talk actually is quite good for the time period. 

 

When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses? When the surf of the centuries has made the great pyramids so much sand, the everlasting family will still be standing, because it is a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this.

 

[Stone holm]

When I see that many ellipses, I always go to the source to see what has been removed.  He is comparing what happens in the home, which is women's space vs. "the word".  Somebody has to sing those lullabies, if men were doing it, his point would still stand. We do have a home based theology so it is not nearly as sinister as you seem to want to make it.   This talk actually is quite good for the time period.

Interesting qualifier there.."for the time period" .... You do or do not believe in eternally established roles and spheres of influence?