John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[rockpond]

There are at least three threads discussing John Dehlin but I thought this might be of interest to everyone.  If it is an inappropriate use of the boards to make such an announcement (and maybe consolidate Dehlin discussions into one place) then mods... please delete this with my apologies.

 

Dehlin posted on his Facebook page that he has received the letter from his SP and will be discussing what it says with Doug Fabrizio on RadioWest this morning at 11am mountain time.

 

 

[Mars]

Now we can have a thread with the following title:

 

"Any Word On The 11:00 Am Press Conference?"

Edited February 10, 2015 by Mars

[bluebell]

On one hand, i can completely understand why he would make an announcement about this issue.  So many people are interested in it and since he's made the whole thing public from the get-go it makes sense that he would continue with that.

 

On the other hand,  it seems a little celebrity that he is waiting to make an official announcement on a radio show rather than to just relate what took place and what the outcome was on his blog or Facebook page.

[rockpond]

Now we can have a thread with the following title:

 

"Any Word On The 11:00 Am Press Conference?"

 

Ha.  Yes, I'll get right on that.

[rockpond]

On one hand, i can completely understand why he would make an announcement about this issue.  So many people are interested in it and since he's made the whole thing public from the get-go it makes sense that he would continue with that.

 

On the other hand,  it seems a little celebrity that he is waiting to make an official announcement on a radio show rather than to just relate what took place and what the outcome was on his blog or Facebook page.

 

I agree.  On both counts.

[HappyJackWagon]

I had understood that the SP didn't deliver the verdict on Sunday because he wanted more time to deliberate. Considering that the letter was delivered less than 24 hours later it doesn't seem like a whole lot of deliberating went on after the DC.

 

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

[KevinG]

Let me guess...

• The church  has excommunicated him for apostasy.
• He is saddened by the decision, and the church authorities inability to understand his enlightened and progressive views.
• He will be a voice for the voiceless victims of Mormon religious hegemony.
• He will continue to work for uncorrelated and disenfranchised Mormons with counselling services and pod casts.
• Please donate to support his efforts at mormonstories dot org

Let me know if I get that right.  

[KevinG]

I had understood that the SP didn't deliver the verdict on Sunday because he wanted more time to deliberate. Considering that the letter was delivered less than 24 hours later it doesn't seem like a whole lot of deliberating went on after the DC.

 

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

 

You forgot the variable that John and his supporters held a public vigil outside the Stake Center during the counsel.  That might have influenced the decision to send the results privately and by letter, don't you think?

Edited February 10, 2015 by KevinG

[Mystery Meat]

I had understood that the SP didn't deliver the verdict on Sunday because he wanted more time to deliberate. Considering that the letter was delivered less than 24 hours later it doesn't seem like a whole lot of deliberating went on after the DC.

 

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

 

My guess is the delay can be attributed to at least two reasons. First, they wanted the decision in writing so they could accurately explain the reasons for his (assumed) excommunication (meaning it had nothing to do with SSM or OW). Second, there were a lot of people at the stake center on Sunday night. Announce it there and you have an angry crowd on hand and while I doubt it would get super ugly, you don't need people there harassing the SP as he is going home. Better safe than sorry.

 

My thoughts for what they are worth.

[The Nehor]

You forgot the variable that John and his supporters held a public vigil outside the Stake Center during the counsel.  That might have influenced the decision to send the results privately and by letter, don't you think?

If I was the Stake President I would have added another variable: tear gas. This is probably why I am not a Stake President.

[Ham Clam]

Let me guess...

• The church  has excommunicated him for apostasy.
• He is saddened by the decision, and the church authorities inability to understand his enlightened and progressive views.
• He will be a voice for the voiceless victims of Mormon religious hegemony.
• He will continue to work for uncorrelated and disenfranchised Mormons with counselling services and pod casts.
• Please donate to support his efforts at mormonstories dot org

Let me know if I get that right.  

I have class during the Radio West Show, but I'm guessing this will be it too.

[HappyJackWagon]

You forgot the variable that John and his supporters held a public vigil outside the Stake Center during the counsel.  That might have influenced the decision to send the results privately and by letter, don't you think?

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

[rockpond]

If I was the Stake President I would have added another variable: tear gas. This is probably why I am not a Stake President.

 

Well that and... "President Nehor" just doesn't sound great.

[stemelbow]

I have class during the Radio West Show, but I'm guessing this will be it too.

One thing missing: His LGTB support and Ordain Women stance will be mentioned as reasons for his excommunication even if the letter doesn't mention them. He'll say he's outspoken on these issues and reasoning from the letter will indicate he opposed the doctrines of the Church or something like that.

If the letter does say these two issues contributed, then he was right all along, and perhaps many others of us will be next.

[USU78]

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

 

Since it is a foregone conclusion that Dehlin will lie about whatever is said or done before, during and after the disciplinary council, the only way to have the truth of what is communicated to him make its way into the press mob that Dehlin created and is manipulating for his selfish and malevolent ends is to put the Stake's decision in writing and deliver it to him.

 

He has waived any entitlement to informal, friendly and personal communications.

 

Please don't speculate about John Dehlin's honesty or lack thereof in this matter. - Ares

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ares

[Ares]

Please bring discussions about the Dehlin disciplinary counsel and related matters here.  The other threads are locked due to derailing.  Thank you.

 

AND keep all comments civil!  This is a sensitive issue for all sides and an active discussion is anticipated.  

 

Brawls, trolling and unfounded accusations from any side of the discussion will not be tolerated.

 

-Ares

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ares

[rockpond]

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

 

Procedure per the handbook is to deliver the decision at the council, not after.  But, I agree with lvjd66....

 

My guess is the delay can be attributed to at least two reasons. First, they wanted the decision in writing so they could accurately explain the reasons for his (assumed) excommunication (meaning it had nothing to do with SSM or OW). Second, there were a lot of people at the stake center on Sunday night. Announce it there and you have an angry crowd on hand and while I doubt it would get super ugly, you don't need people there harassing the SP as he is going home. Better safe than sorry.

 

My thoughts for what they are worth.

[ksfisher]

I would imagine that the delay was caused by needing to get the wording of the decision right, so it wouldn't be twisted into something that it wasn't meant to be...and the tear gas.

[Mars]

Crazy

 

the reason for the wait is the same story hashed out here all day long, yet played out in microcosm

 

Event happens, people without enough information speculate the motives, thoughts, and desires of parties involved based on their predisposition to believe one way or another.

 

we don't see the world for what it is, we see it for who we are

[Mystery Meat]

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

 

You say this likes its a bad thing.

[rockpond]

Since it is a foregone conclusion that Dehlin will lie about whatever is said or done before, during and after the disciplinary council, the only way to have the truth of what is communicated to him make its way into the press mob that Dehlin created and is manipulating for his selfish and malevolent ends is to put the Stake's decision in writing and deliver it to him.

 

He has waived any entitlement to informal, friendly and personal communications.

 

I agree with your final statement but I think the preceding paragraph is unnecessarily harsh and accusatory (without evidence to support it).

 

Report board violations and allow moderators to make judgements on them.  DO NOT board nanny. - Ares

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ares

[ksfisher]

Procedure per the handbook is to deliver the decision at the council, not after.  But, I agree with lvjd66....

 

I know that the decision needs to be made at the council, the high council needs to vote to sustain the stake presidencies decision.  But does the handbook state that the decision must be communicated to the accused then?  After all, in many cases the accused chooses not to be present.

[Buzzard]

I had understood that the SP didn't deliver the verdict on Sunday because he wanted more time to deliberate. Considering that the letter was delivered less than 24 hours later it doesn't seem like a whole lot of deliberating went on after the DC.

 

Question: For those of you who have presided over DC's, how often have you NOT delivered the decision while the person is still present at the DC? It seems very unusual for the DC to close with the decision still pending (like Kate Kelly's) Hopefully the SP was one of the 2 MP holders who delivered the letter, otherwise it seems very cowardly to me.

I have never actually participated in a DC.  From the knowledge I have as an outsider of a few of them, it's not uncommon for apostasy cases to take a day or two.  Sexual immorality cases, especially where there has been a confession and a desire for repentance, the verdict and decision seems to come the same day. 

[KevinG]

That's exactly what I think. I think they punted because they were scared to make a decision when others were around to criticize them for it. So for their own comfort they make JD wait. Delivering a letter that the leaders believe impact JD's eternal destiny is weak.

 

Not weak.  Safe.  

 

Assuming the extra time was not used for careful consideration of what John presented (not a good assumption but I will play along) John Dehlin created the conditions that made an instant decision announcement unwise and potentially unsafe for the Stake High Counsel.  He called for a pubic vigil at the Stake Center, and made it a matter of public interest.  A manipulation of the process inspired and designed to be a private course of action that leaves room for repentance and reconciliation.  

 

There is nothing weak about honoring that process in a way that could still benefit the participant, even if the participant is seeking to manipulate it for his own purposes and notoriety.

[rockpond]

I know that the decision needs to be made at the council, the high council needs to vote to sustain the stake presidencies decision.  But does the handbook state that the decision must be communicated to the accused then?  After all, in many cases the accused chooses not to be present.

 

Yes, section 6.10.4, item #8:  "Invite the person back into the council meeting to inform him of the decision."

 

Step 9 is to inform them of their right to appeal and Step 10 is to invite them to close the council with prayer.

 

There is a note that if the person has decided not to attend the council, the decision can be communicated by meeting with the individual or by other means if necessary (Kate Kelly case).

 

But, as I've stated a couple of times, the Handbook is a guide.  And in this case, I think that Dehlin created special circumstances through his own actions.  So I do not fault the SP for making adjustments to the process.