Hans H. Mattsson, Area 70 On Mormon Stories

[canard78]

He had the Doctrine and Covenants, correct?

As do I and the rest of the membership. And yet the detail of Joseph's polygamy was news to me. In fact, among most Europeans I know, polygamy is a vague bit of our history that Brigham Young is famous for. I asked about Joseph and polygamy 5 years ago I would have said "maybe, not sure."

And can you show me where in D&C 136 it says that Joseph was a polygamist (before we even start on the detail of his polygamy).

Jacob discusses the principles of polygamy in the Book of Mormon. That doesn't mean we are taught that he was a polygamist.

Polygamy is something broadly brushed under the carpet in most of my experience in Europe - I can't speak for USA. It's the thing BY and a few pioneers did to look after widows in the absence of a welfare state.

We had limited access to non-official LDS content before the Internet came along (and even then we are warned away from it). Until fairly recently there was one independent book shop ("latter-day bookstore") for all of Europe. They had a very limited selection and the prices were always double USA due to import costs.

As unbelievable as the Utah crowd may find it, we really are not aware of a lot of the history. Polygamy is not around us in our neighbours and family trees like it is in Utah.

You can deride us as 'yokels' if you want, but we simply don't have the resources or heritage for this to be common knowledge.

[bear]

Its funny, as a european/scandinavian I dont see it the same way. I think the people who are interested will know, be it europe or uganda.

On my mission I served with a lot of people from Utah, and they didnt know more than the average european.

-Thats at least my perception.

[canard78]

Its funny, as a european/scandinavian I dont see it the same way. I think the people who are interested will know, be it europe or uganda.

On my mission I served with a lot of people from Utah, and they didnt know more than the average european.

-Thats at least my perception.

I think that's a fair point. I also think that the community that might raise an awareness is less prevalent.

[Alan]

I've done a bit of background reading about this Swedish fella, and have examined his public utterances regarding his doubts. I have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

[teddyaware]

I've done a bit of background reading about this Swedish fella, and have examined his public utterances regarding his doubts. I have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

I'm wondering if Mattsson is the 'model' upon which Grant Palmer fabricated his supposed "closeted and no longer believing General Authority" whom he's supposedly communicating with in secret meetings.

[Teancum]

I've done a bit of background reading about this Swedish fella, and have examined his public utterances regarding his doubts. I have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

Oh sure. He only invested his entire life into the church and was a prominent member in his local. But because his conclusions and experience is different from yours he just really wanted and excuse to toss it all. He only studied for 8 years. He still is a member.

Aren't you the one the things JS did not practice polygamy, at least in its fullest s sense? How odd for you to condemnthis man when your position is hardly tenable.

Sure it is in the D&C but not the full unseemingly details, the pressure JS brought to bear on some women to enter into marriage, the fact that he married some very young women, the fact that it he lied about it to the public and to his wife, the very strange introduction of polyandry and so on. Add to that the further insertion of what Smith's successors did with it and taught about it, the battle the church had with the the US Government over it, which the church lost.....well these are the troubling aspects.

To attempt to simplify it to "we'll hell everyone should know about polygamy because it is in D&C 132 is ludicrous. I agree and am surprised when someone says they knew NOTHING about polygamy. But when one digs they re often surprised because there is a lot of the iceberg beneath the water. In my experience this is what is what starts to trouble some people.

But hey it is just easier to assume that the disaffected saint is the flawed one, that they have some other motive, that they really did not want answers. It helps keep the believer safe.

[teddyaware]

Mormonism is not "the way."

I believe in one path towards becoming more like one God. We're either travelling up the path towards godliness or down the path away from it.

I consider Mormonism to be the best vehicle for me to travel that path. The "only true and living" one for me at this time in my life. But there are lots of other vehicles for travelling that path.

Elder Mattsson makes this point very eloquently in part 5. He even expresses a desire to find a middle way of association with Mormonism even after his changes perspective.

His local leaders on the other hand (the area president) forced a choice. In and shut up, or out.

That's a terrible choice to offer and one that should have never been put on the table.

To me it's very simple: There are members of the Church who are well aware of the controversial aspects of Mormonism who, nevertheless, have very strong testimonies, founded on in-depth knowledge and personal revelation, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indubitably true. And then there are members of the Church who's testimonies, for some reason or another, are less than solid, substantial, secure and unshakable.

It would seem that for those who have found a way to remain active in the Church -- in spite of the fact that their testimonies are somewhat battered, shaken and tentative -- that is a very good thing. After all, for those who chose to remain active, in spite of nagging doubts and varying degrees of shaken faith, there is a much better chance to ultimately gain an unconquerable testimony if they continue to attend meetings and remain as active participants in the Lord's Church.

I believe one of the reasons why some continue to place themselves in the gravitational orbit of the LDS Church, in spite of shaken faith syndrome, is because the Church's overall message is so powerful, wonderful, soul-satisfying and logically compelling that it's exceedingly difficult for many folks to just walk away and never look back. Perhaps their spirits are already convinced of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel, but for some reason the natural man (the source of all doubtfulness of things spiritual and the wellspring of resistance to eternal truth) has gained the upper hand, causing a temporary override of the potent, saving knowledge the spirit already possesses.

Edited July 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

Oh sure. He only invested his entire life into the church and was a prominent member in his local. But because his conclusions and experience is different from yours he just really wanted and excuse to toss it all. He only studied for 8 years. He still is a member.

Aren't you the one the things JS did not practice polygamy, at least in its fullest s sense? How odd for you to condemnthis man when your position is hardly tenable.

Sure it is in the D&C but not the full unseemingly details, the pressure JS brought to bear on some women to enter into marriage, the fact that he married some very young women, the fact that it he lied about it to the public and to his wife, the very strange introduction of polyandry and so on. Add to that the further insertion of what Smith's successors did with it and taught about it, the battle the church had with the the US Government over it, which the church lost.....well these are the troubling aspects.

To attempt to simplify it to "we'll hell everyone should know about polygamy because it is in D&C 132 is ludicrous. I agree and am surprised when someone says they knew NOTHING about polygamy. But when one digs they re often surprised because there is a lot of the iceberg beneath the water. In my experience this is what is what starts to trouble some people.

But hey it is just easier to assume that the disaffected saint is the flawed one, that they have some other motive, that they really did not want answers. It helps keep the believer safe.

Apparently it's a case of blame the victim. I see how some people can read D & C 132, and not understand the extent that JS took it, in fact he broke some of the rules in that section! And the revelation that Emma would die if she didn't accept it, kinda went out the window when she lived to an old age. I think this polygamy/polyandry thing is what breaks the camels back, especially with the sensitive individual. And so many that thought it was just to take care of the widowed or destitute.

[canard78]

I've done a bit of background reading about this Swedish fella, and have examined his public utterances regarding his doubts. I have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

So the ad hominem attacks continue... Have you listened to his interview with John Dehlin? Skip to parts 4 and 5 if needs be. I only hear sincerity in his message.

Read the transcript of the Marlin Jensen visit to Sweden and the paucity of the answers given.

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Turley_Jensen_Stockholm_2010.pdf

Whenever people start saying "we know even more shocking information than you do and we're still here" I can't help but raise a skeptical eyebrow.

If he is a fraud then why would he lead with Joseph's polygamy? If that's already such easy common knowledge among all the membership, why would a cooked up fraud raise an issue that everyone else would shrug off? That doesn't make sense.

You say each of them are answered. Please feel free to show me the original revelation received by Brigham Young that overturns Joseph's original practice of ordaining black members. There are indeed unanswered questions.

Please also give the doctrinal foundation and purpose of Joseph marrying other men's wives (which does not fulfil the guidelines of D&C 132, a section which does not even state Joseph was a polygamist).

Please also explain why there is only a recorded word of the Lord on the matter in 1843, 10 years after he had first started polygamy with his 17yo housekeeper. Lds.org's new search tool of what the church call "safe" and "only returns links to official Church-approved content" returns this result for a search of Fanny Alger: "Fanny Alger, the first plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr."

http://www.lds.org/search?q=Fanny+Alger&domains=all〈=eng

July 1843, when said revelation is recorded, is also after he'd already been married to 28 women. 11 of whom already had husbands.

Elder Mattsson says he spent 8 years seeking an answer to these questions and not getting a good answer.

[canard78]

I find it hard to believe that anyone can be a member of the Church for five minutes without knowing about it. It's almost always the first question people ask about when they find out you are mormon.

Polygamy, yes. The full detail of Joseph's polygamy, no.

[omni]

As do I and the rest of the membership. And yet the detail of Joseph's polygamy was news to me. In fact, among most Europeans I know, polygamy is a vague bit of our history that Brigham Young is famous for. I asked about Joseph and polygamy 5 years ago I would have said "maybe, not sure."

And can you show me where in D&C 136 it says that Joseph was a polygamist (before we even start on the detail of his polygamy).

Jacob discusses the principles of polygamy in the Book of Mormon. That doesn't mean we are taught that he was a polygamist.

Polygamy is something broadly brushed under the carpet in most of my experience in Europe - I can't speak for USA. It's the thing BY and a few pioneers did to look after widows in the absence of a welfare state.

We had limited access to non-official LDS content before the Internet came along (and even then we are warned away from it). Until fairly recently there was one independent book shop ("latter-day bookstore") for all of Europe. They had a very limited selection and the prices were always double USA due to import costs.

As unbelievable as the Utah crowd may find it, we really are not aware of a lot of the history. Polygamy is not around us in our neighbours and family trees like it is in Utah.

You can deride us as 'yokels' if you want, but we simply don't have the resources or heritage for this to be common knowledge.

Canard, since you've listened to the entire podcast, can you clarify if Mattson's faith crisis was started because of his discovery of JS's polygamy, or the more controversial aspects of it?

Edited July 22, 2013 by omni

[Alan]

Oh sure. He only invested his entire life into the church and was a prominent member in his local. But because his conclusions and experience is different from yours he just really wanted and excuse to toss it all. He only studied for 8 years. He still is a member.

Aren't you the one the things JS did not practice polygamy, at least in its fullest s sense? How odd for you to condemnthis man when your position is hardly tenable.

Sure it is in the D&C but not the full unseemingly details, the pressure JS brought to bear on some women to enter into marriage, the fact that he married some very young women, the fact that it he lied about it to the public and to his wife, the very strange introduction of polyandry and so on. Add to that the further insertion of what Smith's successors did with it and taught about it, the battle the church had with the the US Government over it, which the church lost.....well these are the troubling aspects.

To attempt to simplify it to "we'll hell everyone should know about polygamy because it is in D&C 132 is ludicrous. I agree and am surprised when someone says they knew NOTHING about polygamy. But when one digs they re often surprised because there is a lot of the iceberg beneath the water. In my experience this is what is what starts to trouble some people.

But hey it is just easier to assume that the disaffected saint is the flawed one, that they have some other motive, that they really did not want answers. It helps keep the believer safe.

You're right, I don't believe JS practiced polygamy in the way most people do. But comeon, almost everyone in the church thinks he did. This guy must have known. Either that, or he was a very ignorant man. I don't think there is any middle ground.

But my point is that he doesn't believe anymore because he has chosen not to, not because he was forced not to. So his hurt, sincere or otherwise, is self-inflicted.

I have absolutely zero sympathy with him.

And I know what I am talking about as I have been where he is, as those who know me will readily testify to. So I know the mindset. I know he has deliberately decided to disbelieve for other reasons than the ones he presents, because he will have known about those things for years. He is a fraud in my view.

As for investing his entire life in the church, so what? We all know that we get a lot out of the church too. Especially if we enjoy positions of authority as he had.

No I don't buy it. He's a wolf among lambs and he probably always has been.

[Senator]

You're right, I don't believe JS practiced polygamy in the way most people do. But comeon, almost everyone in the church thinks he did. This guy must have known. Either that, or he was a very ignorant man. I don't think there is any middle ground.

But my point is that he doesn't believe anymore because he has chosen not to, not because he was forced not to. So his hurt, sincere or otherwise, is self-inflicted.

I have absolutely zero sympathy with him.

And I know what I am talking about as I have been where he is, as those who know me will readily testify to. So I know the mindset. I know he has deliberately decided to disbelieve for other reasons than the ones he presents, because he will have known about those things for years. He is a fraud in my view.

As for investing his entire life in the church, so what? We all know that we get a lot out of the church too. Especially if we enjoy positions of authority as he had.

No I don't buy it. He's a wolf among lambs and he probably always has been.

Have you checked your own self-inflicted toxicity lately?

[Alan]

Have you checked your own self-inflicted toxicity lately?

Yep, have you?

Edited July 22, 2013 by Alan

[pmccombs1]

I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

I'm certain that your personal answers are personally satisfying to you personally.

And other people who fail to see how your personal answers don't make everything OK for them are what? Oh, I see. Your personal answers are so obvious, so final, so universal, and so beyond any doubt or question, that those who claim to find no answers anywhere must be... insincere and duplicitous.

And this gives you license to read the man's soul and to make the following judgment: "The truth is, he just doesn't want to believe." What do you know about the truth? Nothing.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

Are you kidding? The D&C is no history of Joseph's polygamy. I come from generations of church members and had no idea about Joseph's personal practice of the doctrine until, as an adult, I stumbled on Todd Compton's book. I didn't realize that Joseph himself engaged in the practice, and I liked to think that he didn't; that he was just the messenger of the doctrine. Of later practice in the Utah territory, I was well aware. It seemed an excusable indiscretion for a persecuted people settling a new land who needed a way to raise up their generations. But Joseph himself... I had always imaged there was only Emma. I had been taught of her many times, but of others, nothing at all. It made for a certain perception, the D&C notwithstanding.

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

Well, well. With what judgment ye judge and all that. Take care, your honor; for what you project onto others reveals more about your inner self than it does of that which you presume to discern.

[teddyaware]

So the ad hominem attacks continue... Have you listened to his interview with John Dehlin? Skip to parts 4 and 5 if needs be. I only hear sincerity in his message.

Read the transcript of the Marlin Jensen visit to Sweden and the paucity of the answers given.

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Turley_Jensen_Stockholm_2010.pdf

Whenever people start saying "we know even more shocking information than you do and we're still here" I can't help but raise a skeptical eyebrow.

If he is a fraud then why would he lead with Joseph's polygamy? If that's already such easy common knowledge among all the membership, why would a cooked up fraud raise an issue that everyone else would shrug off? That doesn't make sense.

You say each of them are answered. Please feel free to show me the original revelation received by Brigham Young that overturns Joseph's original practice of ordaining black members. There are indeed unanswered questions.

Please also give the doctrinal foundation and purpose of Joseph marrying other men's wives (which does not fulfil the guidelines of D&C 132, a section which does not even state Joseph was a polygamist).

Please also explain why there is only a recorded word of the Lord on the matter in 1843, 10 years after he had first started polygamy with his 17yo housekeeper. Lds.org's new search tool of what the church call "safe" and "only returns links to official Church-approved content" returns this result for a search of Fanny Alger: "Fanny Alger, the first plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr."

http://www.lds.org/search?q=Fanny+Alger&domains=all&lang=eng

July 1843, when said revelation is recorded, is also after he'd already been married to 28 women. 11 of whom already had husbands.

Elder Mattsson says he spent 8 years seeking an answer to these questions and not getting a good answer.

When one has doubts, as does Elder Mattsson, there is no better counselor, teacher, and resolver of doubts and troubling issues than is the Holy Ghost Himself. At the time of his baptism, Brother Mattsson was the recipient of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and speaking from my own personal experience, I can say that when I was troubled with questions, it was by my own study, research and prayerful seeking that the Holy Ghost Himself ultimately inspired me with answers my questions that brought peace to my heart, enabling me to maintain my conviction of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.

I think it's very likely the reason why Brother Mattsson received what you call Marlin Jensen's "paucity of answers" is because there actually is no good way for an outside party (i.e. someone outside of the doubter's own mind, heart and spirit) who is able to satisfactorily answer these questions in a way that would satisfy a troubled mind and restore testimony. The only way for one to overcome the exceedingly great mists of darkness that cause some to let go their grip on the iron rod of truth and testimony -- as described by Lehi in his vision of the tree of life -- is to maintain his grip on the iron rod of the word of God, and remain steadfast in testimony to the doctrines and principles he already knows to be true.

To further explain the above point, if someone already knows the Book of Mormon is a miraculously produced second prophetic witness of the Lord Jesus Christ, he should maintain a firm grip on that sacred book and not allow some late appearing mist of darkness and confusion to cause him to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Or if a man has a testimony that celestial eternal family life is God's design and will for those most blessed of the Father's spirit children who obtain the third heaven, he should keep a firm grip on that glorious principle, rather than cast it away because of some Johnny-come-lately mist of darkness that ministers doubt. Faith in what one already knows to be true fortifies the soul against the doubts and questions that could cause him to turn away from those things that he, by personal revelation, already knows to be true

Lehi's vision vividly demonstrates that powerful doubts can and will present themselves to testimony bearing believers who cling to the iron rod of truth. And according to Lehi, some will allow those mists of darkness and confusion to override the spiritual knowledge of that which they already knew to be true. Conversely, Lehi also tells us there are others who will not allow the confusing and frightening mists of darkness to persuade them to release their grip on those sacred principles and doctrines which they know in their hearts are be true.

Edited July 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[ALarson]

I've done a bit of background reading about this Swedish fella, and have examined his public utterances regarding his doubts. I have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I can personally answer most of his concerns pretty adequately, so I cannot believe his claim that he couldn't find any answers and Mormon leaders and scholars were evasive. The truth is he just doesn't want to believe, simple as that.

An example: How can he honestly say that he was unaware of Joseph's alleged polygamy..... it's in the D&C for crying out loud!!!

No, I don't buy it. I think he's a fraud and this "poor me I'm hurting so much" act is just that, an act; all part of the fraud.

I understand he now lives in Spain. They're welcome to him.

The polygamy comments are hilarious coming from you, Alan. You STILL don't know that Joseph Smith lived polygamy! (And you run away when asked for sources on this...after you promise sources.)

As far as thinking he's a fraud. He was a very high ranking leader within the church and he seems very sincere to me. Who are you to pass judgement on him?

Have you even listened to his podcasts?

[Senator]

When one has doubts, as does Elder Mattsson, there is no better counselor, teacher, and resolver of doubts and troubling issues than is the Holy Ghost Himself. At the time of his baptism, Brother Mattsson was the recipient of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and speaking from my own personal experience, I can say that when I was troubled with questions, it was by my own study, research and prayerful seeking that the Holy Ghost Himself ultimately inspired me with answers my questions that brought peace to my heart, enabling me to maintain my conviction of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.

Then perhaps an apt response to the Mattson story is simply, he's not finished yet....

[Alan]

I come from generations of church members and had no idea about Joseph's personal practice of the doctrine until, as an adult, I stumbled on Todd Compton's book. I didn't realize that Joseph himself engaged in the practice....

Seriously? I didn't know we had members on the moon!

So you had never read D&C 132? You know, the bit where Emma is told to accept the "wives" Joseph has already been given?

I joined the church when I was 13 (nearly 40 years ago) and I have known about Joseph's alleged polygamy nearly all of that time. I don't know anyone who doesn't.

In fact, it is only relatively recently that I have come to realise I was wrong and that Joseph wasn't a polygamist - but that's another story.

I am 99.99% certain this man has other issues and so is looking for a convenient way out. This pattern is very common and was my mindset many years ago too. Anti info was an absolute godsend for me back then. Like I said, I know his game so zero sympathy.

[omni]

You're right, I don't believe JS practiced polygamy in the way most people do. But comeon, almost everyone in the church thinks he did. This guy must have known. Either that, or he was a very ignorant man. I don't think there is any middle ground.

But my point is that he doesn't believe anymore because he has chosen not to, not because he was forced not to. So his hurt, sincere or otherwise, is self-inflicted.

I have absolutely zero sympathy with him.

And I know what I am talking about as I have been where he is, as those who know me will readily testify to. So I know the mindset. I know he has deliberately decided to disbelieve for other reasons than the ones he presents, because he will have known about those things for years. He is a fraud in my view.

As for investing his entire life in the church, so what? We all know that we get a lot out of the church too. Especially if we enjoy positions of authority as he had.

No I don't buy it. He's a wolf among lambs and he probably always has been.

Unbelievable. It's sad that someone who has essentially dedicated his entire adult life to the church and then admits to a faith crisis suddenly becomes persona non grata.

[teddyaware]

Then perhaps an apt response to the Mattson story is simply, he's not finished yet....

God never gives up on any one of his beloved children, most especially the wayward ones. One wonders if the Father even continues to love those who become son's of perdition? After all, they gave up on Him, He didn't gave up on them

[Alan]

It's sad that someone who has essentially dedicated his entire adult life to the church and then admits to a faith crisis suddenly becomes persona non grata.

Yes it is, but that's life.

Please dial down the negativity.

[Senator]

Like I said, I know his game so zero sympathy.

Yet supposedly you've come through this and are a better man. So one would think you would have 100% empathy for him. Interesting.

[ALarson]

Yes it is, but that's life.

No it's not. Why would you say that? Obviously Hans Mattsson is still thought of as an interesting, prominent personality. His story made it to the front page (#1 read story) of the NYTs! There are over 550 comments regarding this story. Alan, do you really agree that he has become "an unacceptable or unwelcome person"? Nice. He is still active in the church from what I've heard and you say this about him?

(By the way, Alan....how's your research into finding the proof that William Clayton's journal was rewritten or altered coming? We're still waiting for you to keep your promise and provide that.)

[canard78]

Canard, since you've listened to the entire podcast, can you clarify if Mattson's faith crisis was started because of his discovery of JS's polygamy, or the more controversial aspects of it?

The faith crisis really started because he was trying to answer questions for a friend, among which was the nature of Joseph Smith's polygamy. I'll see if I can get the exact quote from Dehlin's interview. He first tried to get answers from leaders and other LDS faithful historians. When they're responses came no-where near an answer (and it's not hard to see why when reading the transcript of the Swedish meeting in 2010 with Elder Jensen and Richard Turley).