John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[Duncan]

Crazy thing is as big as our Church is I bet at the same time that Dehlin was having his DC there were other disciplinary courts going on, how many I have no idea, but those ones you never hear about-I am floored he is taking this to the media as DC's are such a personal and private thing that you don't want anyone to know about it

[Duncan]

If you are in a temple marriage, if one of you gets ex'd does it make the temple sealing void? What happens to the faithful member? Does he or she lose their chance at exaltation because of their ex'd spouse?

 

no, they still are good-they didn't violate anything. Now, how they fare in the next life with an exed spouse I can only guess

[cinepro]

No. The sealing ordinance is still intact for innocent parties to the sealing. While excommunication dissolves the sealing for the person who is excommunicated, it doesn't "nullify" the sealing for the innocent spouse or children.

 

I know nothing about Dehlin's wife and children, but it does seem that they have all stopped going to Church and have actively gone inactive.  Who knows what has happened in the past, or what the future holds, but it doesn't appear that the current situation has separated them on Sunday mornings.

[cinepro]

no, they still are good-they didn't violate anything. Now, how they fare in the next life with an exed spouse I can only guess

 

Who knows where the Church will be in 100 or 200 years?  Can we even imagine the possibility that the points of disagreement with Dehlin become accepted beliefs for LDS, and that his excommunication gets posthumously nullified?

[Duncan]

Who knows where the Church will be in 100 or 200 years?  Can we even imagine the possibility that the points of disagreement with Dehlin become accepted beliefs for LDS, and that his excommunication gets posthumously nullified?

 

true! we live by current prophets not future ones

[ksfisher]

If you are in a temple marriage, if one of you gets ex'd does it make the temple sealing void? What happens to the faithful member? Does he or she lose their chance at exaltation because of their ex'd spouse?

 

The temple sealing is no longer in force.  It may be restored at a future date, however, upon condition of repentance. 

 

No one persons chance at exaltation rest on the actions, or inactions, of another person.

[Scott Lloyd]

One other thing:

 

I've heard people speculate that the delay in the decision might have been because it wasn't unanimously sustained by the members of the high council. The decision in a DC is solely that of the stake president or bishop. While the others involved give input, ask questions, and are asked to sustain a decision, refusing to sustain wouldn't "veto" the decision (unless the priesthood leader won't move forward without unanimity). 

Can't put my finger on it, but I read somewhere today about unanimity in the decision. Perhaps it was in the stake president's letter; perhaps in one of the media reports.

[JLHPROF]

No. The sealing ordinance is still intact for innocent parties to the sealing. While excommunication dissolves the sealing for the person who is excommunicated, it doesn't "nullify" the sealing for the innocent spouse or children.

 

If a husband and wife are sealed together as man and wife, and the husband's sealing is cancelled, who is the wife now sealed to?  Nobody.

If the sealing is cancelled she's now single in the eternities.  And her children have a mother but no father in the eternities.

 

Either he repents at some point in the future and his blessings are restored, or she and her children need a new eternal companion.

[stemelbow]

Can't put my finger on it, but I read somewhere today about unanimity in the decision. Perhaps it was in the stake president's letter; perhaps in one of the media reports.

From Bryan King's letter:

"The decision of the Stake Presidency and High Council was unanimous."

[Scott Lloyd]

From Bryan King's letter:

"The decision of the Stake Presidency and High Council was unanimous."

Thanks. I knew I had seen it somewhere, and not long ago.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know nothing about Dehlin's wife and children, but it does seem that they have all stopped going to Church and have actively gone inactive.

I would like to see some one be actively inactive.

[Scott Lloyd]

If a husband and wife are sealed together as man and wife, and the husband's sealing is cancelled, who is the wife now sealed to?  Nobody.

If the sealing is cancelled she's now single in the eternities.  And her children have a mother but no father in the eternities.

 

Either he repents at some point in the future and his blessings are restored, or she and her children need a new eternal companion.

I think you're making a rather broad leap to conclusion in saying she will have no husband and  her children no father in the eternities.

 

My understanding is that a worthy companion will be provided, just as single women who never have the opportunity to marry are often assured.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

I think your making a rather broad leap to conclusion in saying she will have no husband her children no father in the eternities.

 

My understanding is that a worthy companion will be provided, just as single women who never have the opportunity to marry are often assured.

 

Well, yes, of course you are right.  Sorry if I overstated a bit.

However, until that worthy companion is provided she is currently without an eternal companion.  I was responding to the strange notion that her sealing could be intact and his not.  That made no sense.

 

But no, I am not condemning her to lose blessings she is worthy of.  Sorry if it came across that way.

Edited February 10, 2015 by JLHPROF

[KevinG]

Who knows where the Church will be in 100 or 200 years?  Can we even imagine the possibility that the points of disagreement with Dehlin become accepted beliefs for LDS, and that his excommunication gets posthumously nullified?

 

If the doctrine of Christ as Savior, and the Book of Mormon as scripture, is nullified I suspect we will have bigger issues than the membership status of a long dead John Dehlin.

 

Even if doctrines are changed to align with his personal beliefs, he would still need to repent of apostasy.  If you run ahead of the train because you think its too slow out of the station, you may have trouble hopping back on when it gets up to speed.  And if you miss the train, you have a long walk to the destination.

Edited February 10, 2015 by KevinG

[Calm]

Crazy thing is as big as our Church is I bet at the same time that Dehlin was having his DC there were other disciplinary courts going on, how many I have no idea, but those ones you never hear about-I am floored he is taking this to the media as DC's are such a personal and private thing that you don't want anyone to know about it

That is what is different about it so it would seem to me, Dehlin doesn't want it to be personal and private...at least on his side of things.

[Calm]

If a husband and wife are sealed together as man and wife, and the husband's sealing is cancelled, who is the wife now sealed to?

God. Her covenant with him still stands and she has no reason to fear that her blessings will be one whit less for her husband's actions. Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, yes, of course you are right.  Sorry if I overstated a bit.

However, until that worthy companion is provided she is currently without an eternal companion.  I was responding to the strange notion that her sealing could be intact and his not.  That made no sense.

 

But no, I am not condemning her to lose blessings she is worthy of.  Sorry if it came across that way.

This is from that august authority, Wikipedia:

 

If a sealing is canceled, the sealing between them and any children remains in force, though the couple is no longer sealed. The sealing together of husband and wife and the sealing of children to parents are separate ordinances.^[3]

 

It does link to a 1975 Q and A article in the New Era by James A. Cullimore.

 

Here's a paragraph from that article:

 

As to the next question, “What happens to the children in the next life when there has been a cancellation of sealing of the parents?” it is understood that in the case of a cancellation of the sealing of the woman to the man, this does not cancel the sealing of the children to the parents, since they were born in the covenant, which is a birthright blessing. They remain in the status of the sealing to their parents and can never be sealed to anyone else. The decision as to with whom they will go will be determined by the Lord in the hereafter.

 

Edited February 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

God. Her covenant with him still stands and she has no reason to fear that her blessings will be one whit less for her husband's actions.

 

I agree with all of this but I must have missed the bit when we were sealed directly to God.  It's a nice bit of nothing to say she is sealed to God, but I agree that she will not lose out on a single iota of blessings.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Thanks for the clarifications on what happens regarding sealings and post mortal world logistics when someone is ex'd.

[USU78]

Since it is a foregone conclusion that Dehlin will lie about whatever is said or done before, during and after the disciplinary council, the only way to have the truth of what is communicated to him make its way into the press mob that Dehlin created and is manipulating for his selfish and malevolent ends is to put the Stake's decision in writing and deliver it to him.

 

He has waived any entitlement to informal, friendly and personal communications.

 

Please don't speculate about John Dehlin's honesty or lack thereof in this matter. - Ares

 

I can't imagine why this is a problem, since he has objectively misrepresented the entire process prior to the actual disciplinary council.

 

And that in order to woo the press on matters of, at best, tertiary interest.

 

Discuss what is a matter of record not speculation about what he might do.  This is fair to critics and supporters alike.  Thank you.  -Ares

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ares

[USU78]

I was wrong...  The contents of the letter were shared.  By whom I don't know?

 

By him, of course.

[USU78]

Why wouldn't the First Presidency and Apostles welcome ideas to keep members and families together?  Waiting for prophecies doesn't mean you cannot listen.

 

You are working from the false premise that they don't listen.

 

Evidence is quite to the contrary.

[USU78]

Does anyone have a summary or transcript of Dehlin's public comments?

 

He has a website.

[Calm]

FYI, from yesterday:

 

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/john-dehlin-and-document-releases/

 

The question that comes to mind first is “Quotations from what?” I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it seems likely that he recorded his conversations with his Stake President without his informed consent, made a transcript of it, and that he looked through it to see what would place him in the best light and the Church in the worst light and chose which narrative to focus on accordingly. How his Stake President may have felt when he discovered that someone with whom he supposed he was having a cordial and confidential conversation had recorded him and planned on posting his off-handed thoughts on the internet all while smiling a nice smile, and bringing up various topics that he wanted to have a good gotcha quote on we may never know. And based on the fact that he apparently did this, I suppose that John Dehlin doesn’t particularly care.

 

From today:

 

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/8/a/e8a44044aed3fed4/John_Dehlin_Excommunicated_Press_Release_2-10-2015_Final.pdf?c_id=8340788&expiration=1423606293&hwt=2b06b97c70ef446eebef390e6f750abf

Edited February 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[USU78]

FYI, from yesterday:

 

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/john-dehlin-and-document-releases/

 

From today:

 

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/8/a/e8a44044aed3fed4/John_Dehlin_Excommunicated_Press_Release_2-10-2015_Final.pdf?c_id=8340788&expiration=1423606293&hwt=2b06b97c70ef446eebef390e6f750abf

 

Pants

 

 

 

On

 

 

 

Fire