John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[ERayR]

I've got to say that I think that's a really, really well-written letter.  

I've been seeing the comments from Dehlin's supporters on Facebook and other forums, and honestly, it's getting to the point where they are almost willfully deluding themselves.  They are desperately creating an alternate reality where Dehlin was some kind of Galileo, when in the end his excommunication wasn't much more than a garden variety apostasy (although much more publicized).  

 

Kind of like Kate Kelly and she is now relegated to a footnote when she is mentioned at all.

[mormonnewb]

Nope, but if they listened to Joseph Smith they would set them free.

 

 

 

So your advice to the German saints if you went back in time would be active opposition to the Nazi regime and get the Mormons added to those sent to the camps? I am not sure I would see this as a moral thing to do. I think the advice of the Priesthood leaders of the time was probably best, that is, to gather to Zion.

 

 

 

Nope, but the gospel already teaches charity and the like so it was already there.

 

 

 

And here we come to the crux of the matter. We know which side history is on. This is the way things are going. We will be reviled for our stance. It is amazing how many prophets with a sure word of prophecy we have in the world isn't it?

 

The people fighting to keep gays from getting dragged behind trucks were those practicing charity. Joining the marriage equality campaign is a cheap way of casting oneself as a hero. I have more respect for a guy collecting money for textbooks for underprivileged schools then I do a thousand people in favor of gay marriage. One is unsung discipleship. The other is joining a party movement and being lauded for almost no sacrifice.

 

"For they love the high seats"

 

The two are not mutually exclusive.  One can advocate for SSM and collect money for underprivileged kids.

 

And as for your accusation of high seat loving, I'll gladly stack my unprivileged school textbook receipts against yours any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

Edited February 11, 2015 by mormonnewb

[Calm]

Mormonstories is down now. I wonder if someone reported him trying to post a private conversation to the host and they were like, shut it down. I guess it wouldn't surprise me. Or if he had a change of heart and decided to stop all the nonsense he's been spewing of late.

One can hope.

I agree with a LGBT supporter who pointed out his claim he is getting shut down is hurting the cause, rather than helping. He is promoting fear and doubt by his false claim.

[stemelbow]

One can hope.

I agree with a LGBT supporter who pointed out his claim he is getting shut down is hurting the cause, rather than helping. He is promoting fear and doubt by his false claim.

I agree. If he continues as he has the past week or so he's really going to turn off a lot of his own supporters, I'm guessing. People will soon catch on that he's cuasing problems for his own stated designs.

[juliann]

Sigh.

 

So sad that the church felt it needed to carry this parochial battle forward in a world-wide church.

 

I am sure the saints in Uganda are up in arms about all this.  Now Dehlin is known world-wide. 

 

 

Great.

 

Who manages the PR?

 

Ten RS ladies met for lunch today and I heard the news. I asked each one of them if they had heard of John Dehlin. Not one of them had. Only one woman confirmed his name to look into it more.  I think that is probably representative in outside Utah areas.

 

Reality checks are useful sometimes.

 

Given the disclosures of the percentage of his non-profit income feeding into his income by two blogs on the Bloggernacle, he may have bigger concerns than excommunication now.

[Calm]

I agree. If he continues as he has the past week or so he's really going to turn off a lot of his own supporters, I'm guessing. People will soon catch on that he's cuasing problems for his own stated designs.

Perhaps. But I think a lot enjoy the drama of the story of a martyr, more interesting than the usual mundane stories on the ground...especially the reporters, so I am not as certain as you are.

[ERayR]

Ordain Women sounds off about Dehlin's excommunication including a nice pic of him with Kate Kelly:

 

http://ordainwomen.org/johns-dehlin-announcement/

 

Anything to get noticed even if it is only a footnote.

[mormonnewb]

But the other websites do and as you can imagine, it's not pretty for Team Church.

 

 

Says Newb as he gleefully rubs hiss piously folded hand together.

 

I can understand why you think I revel in our (relatively minor) public scorn.  After all, I predicted such and we all know how prideful I am and how much I like to be right (I'm certainly alone on this board in that capacity).

 

However, just to be clear, I do NOT revel in the thought of the conversations I will have with my liberal friends asking, "So why do you belong to such a backwards church?"  I'd much rather talk about a topic that is much more interesting (i.e., ME, my current business plans, my kids, and all other things Newb).  Instead, I'll be taking away valuable Newb-discussion time saying things like, "I know what it looks like, but trust me, on an individual basis, Mormons are kind-hearted, loving and generous Christians.  And yes, collectively, we're a little slow to come around to modern ways of thinking, but don't give up on us yet.  We'll get there!  Pray for us, Brother/Sister!"

 

Fortunately, this is a much bigger deal within Mormonism than without, so I don't expect to have this conversation more than a half-dozen times or so; that is, until we have our next heresy trial (which I predict will be sometime this summer).

[ERayR]

But Sister Kelly was ex'd for advocating for women, so it still is true that one must stay on the slow train (don't blame me ... I didn't craft this metaphor) to be a faithful saint.

 

If the fast train is headed for a train wreck it is much better to be on the slow train.

[Calm]

Highlight from the transcript:

 

 

Based upon your decision of what to do—I would hope that our discussions could be in confidence. Again; not recorded—simply because I think in that sense... I can speak more openly. No one wants to feel like every word that they may say may be taken out of context. It is very, very difficult to do that. And in my professional life—many times, it is interesting to read a patient’s perception of the care that they have received. I do the things over and over again and I think I’m the same person—some things I do over and over and over again—but how interesting it is to see how the same words of my mouth... and I have the same sentences and the same discussion that happens over and over again—sometimes is misinterpreted. So I hope, and I share that with you in the sense that our conversations are not shared outside of this... they’re not shared in our high council meetings. President Jenkins and I are the only ones that talk about this and it is in the confidence of that capacity that we talk. So that is my invitation to you. 

 

 

And Dehlin says nothing in response to this statement by King while knowingly continuing to record him.

[juliann]

Sister Kelly isn't the topic of this thread. And plenty of women in the Church advocate for women, just differently than Sister Kelly (Which I've learned through Juliann has made these sweet ladies like my wife as much a target of her scorn as anyone else).

 

Um, what?

[teddyaware]

I can understand why you think I revel in our (relatively minor) public scorn.  After all, I predicted such and we all know how prideful I am and how much I like to be right (I'm certainly alone on this board in that capacity).

 

However, just to be clear, I do NOT revel in the thought of the conversations I will have with my liberal friends asking, "So why do you belong to such a backwards church?"  I'd much rather talk about a topic that is much more interesting (i.e., ME, my current business plans, my kids, and all other things Newb).  Instead, I'll be taking away valuable Newb-discussion time saying things like, "I know what it looks like, but trust me, on an individual basis, Mormons are kind-hearted, loving and generous Christians.  And yes, collectively, we're a little slow to come around to modern ways of thinking, but don't give up on us yet.  We'll get there!  Pray for us, Brother/Sister!"

 

Fortunately, this is a much bigger deal within Mormonism than without, so I don't expect to have this conversation more than a half-dozen times or so; that is, until we have our next heresy trial (which I predict will be sometime this summer).

 

 If your liberal friends are so unfailingly liberal that they will think its wrong for the Church to expel a destructive, proactive apostate from it's ranks -- with the proviso that he is loved and can return if he sees the light and repents -- then I would say it's time to stand up for the Church in spite of your fears. One of the great tests for the saints of latter-days is to continue feasting on the precious fruit of the tree of life, even while the spiritually ignorant point mocking fingers from the large and spacious building that represents the pride of the fallen world

[KevinG]

The two are not mutually exclusive. One can advocate for SSM and collect money for underprivileged kids.

And as for your accusation of high seat loving, I'll gladly stack my unprivileged school textbook receipts against yours any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

I don't save those receipts some I can't measure my piety compared to other posters here.

However... The Church has taken a clear position on Gays and marriage. There is a thread or two on the subject with very good quotes from General Authorities. Essentially now that the decision has been made in civil law, we support equal rights under the law, but we also expect reciprocal respect be given our membership to define marriage according to the dictates of our own doctrines.

It is very revealing that in a thread dedicated to a public figures excommunication, where said public figure claims the reasons for excommunication are not the central doctrinal issues that led to that excommunication, is being derailed by laundry lists of your favorite social issues that have nothing to do with the excommunication.

Edited February 11, 2015 by KevinG

[Mystery Meat]

Highlight from the transcript:

And Dehlin says nothing in response to this statement by King while knowingly continuing to record him.

Yeah <cut>

No personal insults. -Ares

[rockpond]

I thought he made a terrible case. Absolutely horrible. And after reading the transcript it's not only obvious he went to the meeting with King, as another poster on another forum put it, to set him up in regards to SSM and OW, it is obvious he has played everyone. Not in any sense did President King indicate a pending excommunication had anything to do with LGBT and SSM. I honestly don't think one can go that route. I felt his interview with Fabrizio was a low point for him, but this really just magnified it. The letter is clear--it has nothing to do with SSM/OW. It never was. Not even a little bit. Wow.

Yeah you didn't read the transcript. President King said that the previous president didn't feel like he could approach Dehlin--wasn't equipped to. If he felt like he could he probably would have.

After hearing the interview today I'm not sure he's going to back down by trying to make this about LGBT and OW. Hopefully he does, but he seems to have lost it a little.

That doesn't make sense that the previous SP "couldn't approach" Dehlin. They met multiple times to discuss his issues. It was that previous SP who cleared John to baptize his son.

I agree that Dehlin has greatly exaggerated SSM/OW advocacy as causes of his church discipline but we can't say they weren't on President King's mind as he did bring them up with respect to the DC (not referring to the Aug '14 transcript... Unfortunately I can't access the doc that mentions it due to MS.org being overloaded).

That said, that SSM/OW were on the SP's mind does NOT mean they were the reasons for Dehlin's excommunication. And Dehlin should be celebrating the fact that they weren't! And the fact that the Church keeps saying they weren't. He seems to be going a little off the rails. He's also ridiculously downplaying his public statements of non-belief and their role in his excommunication.

[rongo]

That doesn't make sense that the previous SP "couldn't approach" Dehlin. They met multiple times to discuss his issues. It was that previous SP who cleared John to baptize his son.

 

It makes perfect sense. Different priesthood leaders have different make-ups. President King said in the transcript that he had told President Jensen that he didn't think he could have had the patience to work with Dehlin as he had, and President Jensen had told him that he couldn't bring himself to confront Dehlin like President King had. This happens all the time --- some priesthood leaders rarely administer church discipline, while others seek to administer it much more often.

 

It doesn't appear to be that he "couldn't approach" Dehlin. He met and worked with him a great deal. But, he apparently wasn't comfortable bringing things to a confrontational head in the way that convening a disciplinary council does.

[The Nehor]

The two are not mutually exclusive.  One can advocate for SSM and collect money for underprivileged kids.

 

Of course they can. You think the best course of action is to do both. I think you are better off doing the latter. I would even consider the former a waste of time.

 

And as for your accusation of high seat loving, I'll gladly stack my unprivileged school textbook receipts against yours any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

 

Does the winner get the high seat?

[rockpond]

It makes perfect sense. Different priesthood leaders have different make-ups. President King said in the transcript that he had told President Jensen that he didn't think he could have had the patience to work with Dehlin as he had, and President Jensen had told him that he couldn't bring himself to confront Dehlin like President King had. This happens all the time --- some priesthood leaders rarely administer church discipline, while others seek to administer it much more often.

 

It doesn't appear to be that he "couldn't approach" Dehlin. He met and worked with him a great deal. But, he apparently wasn't comfortable bringing things to a confrontational head in the way that convening a disciplinary council does.

 

That makes sense... confront and approach are very different words.

 

What you have described here is the ecclesiastical leader roulette that is often referred to by church members.

[Calm]

Um, what?

I think he is saying Kelly has been scornful to women like his wife…as you brought to his attention (her quotes condemning other feminists, etc)

[Calm]

Unfortunately I can't access the doc that mentions it due to MS.org being overloaded).

 

will send you a PM

[Calm]

He's also ridiculously downplaying his public statements of non-belief and their role in his excommunication.

 

He was demanding sources from the SP.

 

Uh…did you say them or not?  Either confirm or deny them, guy.  

Edited February 11, 2015 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

Pants

 

 

 

On

 

 

 

Fire

We need an emoticon for that!

[Kenngo1969]

Thought I'd draw something.

That's awesome, Mak!  Good to cyber-see you!

[Teancum]

Well after reading most of this thread and other things out there all I can say is I am glad it is all over.

John made this a media circus. In that I am disappointed.

I am also disappointed that it seems clear doubts about the church's fundamental truth claims best not be broadcasted to publicly if one wants to maintain membership. This anonymity for some may still be a good thing if they seek to discuss such issues on a forum like this.

But mostly I am sick of it all. There are so much more important things that need addressing really. Again I am glad it is over and I am not surprised how it ended up.

[carbon dioxide]

Glad this is done.  I am confident that we would not allow someone to be baptized into the Church with the views he currently so why should he remain a member with such views?  It is not like the standards drop once one is baptized.