A Church Of Continuing Hunches?

[JLHPROF]

To say it would be wrong seems too far.  Was Joseph Smith WRONG for saying he saw God and Christ?  Was Stephen WRONG for saying he saw God and Jesus on his right hand.  How about Paul, Brother of Jared, and others?

 

Again, this is the difference between "Calling and Election Made Sure" - a personal visit from the Savior that is not for public consumption, AND being privileged to bear witness of the Savior.

 

Joseph bore witness of the Savior in the Grove and in the Temple.  But he did not go around bragging that the Savior had spent time with him and he was going to be exalted.  Two different types of vision - one intensely personal and wrong to reveal, one given to be borne witness of.

[DBMormon]

I mean honestly, what is the purpose in asking this kind of question?   Do you honestly think that past prophets had theophanies on a daily basis?

 

If I am honest, I highly doubt that many of this dispensations prophets have had and face to face discussion with God and have not had an audible conversation where he has spoken back in audible words.  Though I still call them prophets and have faith they are led by him

[JLHPROF]

 

YET AGAIN you are assuming that the prophet or apostle can tell the difference between "what is in his mind" that God said VS "what God really said"

 

How is ANYONE supposed to make that distinction and see that difference??

 

 

Because there is a world of difference between the still small voice and the First Vision.

Joseph didn't just FEEL that he should join no church.  He was actually told by the being standing right in front of him.

Lorenzo Snow didn't just FEEL that he should go ahead and reorganize the first presidency.  The Savior came down, stood before him, and TOLD him to do it.  No impression, no still small voice.  Actual Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the room as one man converseth with another.

 

Just as in the same way there is a world of difference between a dream and the Second Comforter.

 

We are talking the spirit of the Lord vs the presence of the Lord physically.  I would argue that many revelations were verbatim and many were impressions.  And I would hope no prophet would put words in the mouth of our Lord that he didn't actually say.

Edited October 3, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

Because there is a world of difference between the still small voice and the First Vision.

Joseph didn't just FEEL that he should join no church.  He was actually told by the being standing right in front of him.

Lorenzo Snow didn't just FEEL that he should go ahead and reorganize the first presidency.  The Savior came down, stood before him, and TOLD him to do it.  No impression, no still small voice.  Actual Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the room as one man converseth with another.

 

Just as in the same way there is a world of difference between a dream and the Second Comforter.

 

We are talking the spirit of the Lord vs the presence of the Lord physically.  I would argue that many revelations were verbatim and many were impressions.  And I would hope no prophet would put words in the mouth of our Lord that he didn't actually say.

You still don't understand the question.  I have run out of ways to ask it.

[JLHPROF]

You still don't understand the question.  I have run out of ways to ask it.

 

No, I understand exactly what you are saying.  And I agree, but only up to a point.

 

You said:

 

Did he hear a voice or not? Do you think HE knows if it was audible or "just in his mind"?

How precisely does anyone know what is "real" vs what is "in their mind"?

 

And I agree.  But at some point we have to differentiate between in our mind and what is actually in front of us in this dark and dreary world.

Don't go all matrix on me.  In our minds and real world ARE different and so are the revelations that take place in each of them.

Edited October 3, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

No, I understand exactly what you are saying.  And I agree, but only up to a point.

 

You said:

 

And I agree.  But at some point we have to differentiate between in our mind and what is actually in front of us in this dark and dreary world.

Don't go all matrix on me.  In our minds and real world ARE different and so are the revelations that take place in each of them.

Exactly what is the difference and HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT?

 

This has nothing to do with the matrix- this is an epistemological question.  If you cannot distinguish the "difference" there IS no difference.

 

Could you be mistaken that you love your wife, or that the sky is blue?   What color is the sky "really", if it only appears blue?

 

In these cases , appearance IS reality.  We are not talking about some mirage in the desert that changes when you get down the road, or some optical illusion that can be seen in two different ways. 

 

What you see is what you get, in these cases.   This is not the elephant and three blind men, this is about if one of the blind men "really" felt a thing like a rope- not if he misinterpreted the alleged "rope" to be a tail.

 

When you walk into a wall, are you walking into the wall or "your experience of the wall"?   It doesn't matter.   There IS no difference.

[Avatar4321]

Well, here's what it comes down to - it's the quintessential ambiguous hint, similar to the one made by Elder McConkie.

 

 

He also referred to other Apostles who made similar allusions to him that he took to mean the same thing:

So, does that mean he's seen the Lord?  Vision or visit?  Calling and Election?  Very possible.

Did Elder McConkie also receive this blessing?  Quite possible.

I don't expect Pres. Packer and others to openly discuss something so sacred.  That would be wrong.  But like it or not, these ARE allusions/hints that leave members to guess.  These are NOT clearly presented as referring to a specific event in their life.

 

Compare this to the accounts of Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Moses, Adam, and pretty much every other prophet prior to the 1920's.  They left NO room for speculation.

Perhaps we are supposed to take more on faith these days.

you are making my point. How much clearer can they be? Do they have to give detailed specifics about what happened before you believe them when they say they've seen the Savior?

[Guest]

To the OP:

Some of the most profound revelation come through the "still small voice"...far to many what the heavens to open up and every revelation to be like Moses on the Mount, or Joseph via the first vision. Sometimes it is wrestling with and Angel, but more often wrestling with ourselves.

[JLHPROF]

you are making my point. How much clearer can they be? Do they have to give detailed specifics about what happened before you believe them when they say they've seen the Savior?

 

No, my point is that while it's entirely possible that those intimately personal visitations with the Savior are continuing (calling and election) apparently the Lord no longer sees any point in appearing to GA's or sending messengers with direct messages for the Church.  Apparently the Holy Spirit is the only messenger currently visiting anyone with a message for the Church.

It's just very different from EVERY time period prior to the turn of this century.

[ksfisher]

No, my point is that while it's entirely possible that those intimately personal visitations with the Savior are continuing (calling and election) apparently the Lord no longer sees any point in appearing to GA's or sending messengers with direct messages for the Church.  Apparently the Holy Spirit is the only messenger currently visiting anyone with a message for the Church.

It's just very different from EVERY time period prior to the turn of this century.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Duncan]

No, my point is that while it's entirely possible that those intimately personal visitations with the Savior are continuing (calling and election) apparently the Lord no longer sees any point in appearing to GA's or sending messengers with direct messages for the Church.  Apparently the Holy Spirit is the only messenger currently visiting anyone with a message for the Church.

It's just very different from EVERY time period prior to the turn of this century.

 

well, not really, the Holy Ghost was operative 2000 years ago just as it was 120 years ago and who knows maybe 1200 years ago. As I say God gives revelation but it is manifested differently

[Robert F. Smith]

To the OP:

Some of the most profound revelation come through the "still small voice"...far to many what the heavens to open up and every revelation to be like Moses on the Mount, or Joseph via the first vision. Sometimes it is wrestling with and Angel, but more often wrestling with ourselves.

Yet the "still small voice" (Hebrew qol demama daqqa) was only the precursor to the Lord addressing Elijah directly in specific dialogic revelation (I Kings 19:12-18).

[volgadon]

I think you might be surprised at my age.

Everyone has a "different" conversion experience. They are deeply personal. My own was completely unexpected (hello, I was an Orthodox Jew!) and people are usually surprised by what I had to endure to get there. I am not even sure I fully appreciate/understand it myself. Especially when I hear a stake president say to a GA, "you have to hear her conversion story. It's amazing!". Don't we all have amazing stories?

Trust me, there are some things here and there in the church that I really don't get. Really. Don't. And I probably won't understand in this life. I think there is a lot of stuff that we won't understand in this life and I think a lot of people are fooling themselves on the things they think they have figured out. I have found some comfort and joy in - at least for now - embracing the fact that the prophets and apostles do know more than I do and I can trust them. Even more so, I know I can trust my Heavenly Father most of all, and knowing he's the one in charge of the church, I am okay not having the answers. Well, most of the time. I do have my ornery moments.

I offered the example of the rabbi's advice because I would like to see you happy in the church. You don't seem to be. I realize I could be wrong.

 

The advice that you gave was good. This thread reminds me of a parable attributed to the Besht. There are musicians playing, and people dancing. Along comes a deaf man, and all he sees is a bunch of raving lunatics swirling, swaying, and flailing about with no rhyme nor reason to their strange movements. All very, very peculiar...

[Storm Rider]

The advice that you gave was good. This thread reminds me of a parable attributed to the Besht. There are musicians playing, and people dancing. Along comes a deaf man, and all he sees is a bunch of raving lunatics swirling, swaying, and flailing about with no rhyme nor reason to their strange movements. All very, very peculiar...

 

We each have the ability to hear, to see, to feel the truth of the gospel and the joy that comes from following Christ.  However, if one is lacking faith one must desire to hear, to see, and to feel its truthfulness.  Whether one finds joy in the gospel, in the Church of Jesus Christ has a great deal to do with attitude. It is one of the reasons I love and appreciate the 13th Article of Faith:

 

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

The attitude of this thread and so many others has very little in common with the principles taught here.  There is not seeking after those things that are virtuous, lovely, or praiseworthy.  I would go so far to say that one way of being reflects Christ and in the other....nothing of the Light.  

 

I know that I could sit down with Rory and worship Christ, engage in that which is right and proper for a disciple of Christ. However, I am not sure I could do the same with those that reflect such a negative attitude and perception.  What makes this startling is that Rory is a good Catholic and others claim to be LDS.  

 

Though I say there is definitely a need for repentance by some, the issue, the problem, is not in the questioning.  It is how one questions, how one struggles to expand our faith in God and his teachings, and how one relates their thoughts and questions to others.  We can still be joyful in our faith even as it ebbs.  Some see the pursuit of truth is a path of destruction; tearing down what was and is.  Others see the path of truth as a path of creation and building a sure foundation on Christ and growing in his grace.  

 

We each must choose who we will be and who we will follow; whether we will be joyful and a source of peace in the world or not.  There is no rebellion in our Father; the rebellion is found in our own soul.  

[mormonnewb]

The advice that you gave was good. This thread reminds me of a parable attributed to the Besht. There are musicians playing, and people dancing. Along comes a deaf man, and all he sees is a bunch of raving lunatics swirling, swaying, and flailing about with no rhyme nor reason to their strange movements. All very, very peculiar...

For the record, I hear the music and I even find some of the tunes "catchy." It's just that I often find myself thinking, "They call THIS music? Whatever happened to the golden oldies? These days, it's nothing but Rapstoration!"

[mormonnewb]

We each have the ability to hear, to see, to feel the truth of the gospel and the joy that comes from following Christ. However, if one is lacking faith one must desire to hear, to see, and to feel its truthfulness. Whether one finds joy in the gospel, in the Church of Jesus Christ has a great deal to do with attitude. It is one of the reasons I love and appreciate the 13th Article of Faith:

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

The attitude of this thread and so many others has very little in common with the principles taught here. There is not seeking after those things that are virtuous, lovely, or praiseworthy. I would go so far to say that one way of being reflects Christ and in the other....nothing of the Light.

Congratulations! You managed to distill the entire Gospel down to one paragraph. If you had only come along sooner, HF and Christ could have done their work of salvation with a lot less trouble. In fact, if Christ had just focused on the 13th Article of Faith, He could have just ignored all of our sins and not had to go to the cross at all.

And let's be clear. I totally understand the wisdom of being a Gospel half-full type of person. It's one of the things that I like best about this community of believers. However, the world also needs Gospel half-empty folks.

SOMETIMES, it isn't just enough to focus on the good, but we also need to actively confront the bad. Just about every positive social movement in this country has been led by Gospel half-empty Christians.

Abolition was a movement led by half-empty Christians. These saints could have focused on the rapid growth of a new nation and the frequent discoveries of vast resources of a new land, but they felt even more compelled to turn their focus on the hideous practice of human bondage. The same could be said for those Christians that were instrumental in the suffrage, labor and civil rights movements. It wasn't enough for them to simply focus on the good, but to even more closely examine that which was unpure, evil and of bad report.

In short, there isn't just one way to be a good Mormon, at least, I THINK that's what Pres Uchtdorf was trying to teach us a few years back at GC. And as part of the BODY of Christ, it's imperative that we have ALL types of members. Just as a person with six kidneys and no heart isn't healthy, neither is a Church with 15 million half-full members and no heart.

[Boanerges]

In short, there isn't just one way to be a good Mormon, at least, I THINK that's what Pres Uchtdorf was trying to teach us a few years back at GC. And as part of the BODY of Christ, it's imperative that we have ALL types of members. Just as a person with six kidneys and no heart isn't healthy, neither is a Church with 15 million half-full members and no heart.

 Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin:

 

"Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the Church should look, talk, and be alike. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father’s children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds depth and richness to the whole." (GC April 2008)

[Storm Rider]

 Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin:

 

"Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the Church should look, talk, and be alike. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father’s children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds depth and richness to the whole." (GC April 2008)

 

Yes, and that is not an invitation for anyone to set in the back and run their fingernails across the chalkboard spouting the stupidity of "I am different and beautiful". 

[Robert F. Smith]

If I am honest, I highly doubt that many of this dispensations prophets have had and face to face discussion with God and have not had an audible conversation where he has spoken back in audible words.  Though I still call them prophets and have faith they are led by him

You and Mark use the word "honest" a lot, while honesty probably ought to cause some hesitation in being so **** sure of what you suppose to be the case.  Yet you have made doubt the measure of reality for others.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, and that is not an invitation for anyone to set in the back and run their fingernails across the chalkboard spouting the stupidity of "I am different and beautiful". 

Yes, but is it the occasion for those so moved to shout a nice "Halleluyah!" from time to time in a congregational setting?  How about the quiet raising of a hand to witness agreement with what is being said?  How tolerant should we be of very different "gospel cultures" (mentioned by a Seventy in today's opening Conference session) in various parts of the world?  What was it like in the early Mormon Church?  Have you read about the evident spiritual gifts which were on display during meetings?

 

I recall a scene from "Elmer Gantry" in which Burt Lancaster seems right at home in a Black Church setting, and takes full, effusive part.  Is that O.K.?  Would it be O.K. in a Mormon Church setting?

[california boy]

Yes, and that is not an invitation for anyone to set in the back and run their fingernails across the chalkboard spouting the stupidity of "I am different and beautiful". 

 

Can you tell us why you think someone who views themselves as being different and ok with that a stupid idea???  Especially after what  Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin was trying to teach members?

Edited October 4, 2014 by california boy

[DBMormon]

You and Mark use the word "honest" a lot, while honesty probably ought to cause some hesitation in being so **** sure of what you suppose to be the case.  Yet you have made doubt the measure of reality for others.

Sorry for sharing my perspective but that is what I think.  I get that in doing so I may be spreading doubt.  That is not my intention.  I am sharing my thoughts and at times they will involve sharing my doubt.  You seem to suggest that there is no place to have such discussions.... if not here than where?  who can I share my feelings with?  

[Storm Rider]

Can you tell us why you think someone who views themselves as being different and ok with that a stupid idea???  Especially after what  Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin was trying to teach members?

 

Hello Cal, my point was not addressed to those who (to mix metaphors) walked to a different drummer.  The focus of my comment is for those who rebel just to be rebellious.  It is the individual that purposely plays off key, out-of-beat with conductor.  It is not someone who honestly is different or feels different.  Can you see the distinction I am making?  BTW, you don't fit within the parameters I was addressing. 

[CV75]

Sorry for sharing my perspective but that is what I think.  I get that in doing so I may be spreading doubt.  That is not my intention.  I am sharing my thoughts and at times they will involve sharing my doubt.  You seem to suggest that there is no place to have such discussions.... if not here than where?  who can I share my feelings with?  

It is up to you, but I think sharing questions about spiritual things needn’t involve injecting doubt into them. The best spiritual questions are leveraged on the faith and knowledge one already has (“…remember how merciful the Lord hath been… and ponder it… [and] receive these things… [then] ask God …having faith in Christ.”). I recall a couple of recent General Conference talks on this. Disciplined scholarship, because it is limited to more rational processes, strives to formulate objective questions based on one’s confidence in his existing fund of knowledge, which can serve as a hedge against the prejudice of doubt and belief that can undermine vibrant scholarship.

 

As part of remembering and pondering, it helps to “study it out in your mind” which sometimes entails discussion like we see here. Once we involve others in our study, I think we need to be even more careful about doing all we can not to inject our doubts into the process, whatever media we employ for that discussion. It’s bad enough when we sabotage our private personal efforts!

[HappyJackWagon]

 Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin:

 

"Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the Church should look, talk, and be alike. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father’s children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds depth and richness to the whole." (GC April 2008)

Great quote, Boanerges!

Sometimes we just need more cow bell.