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The Seven Levels of Mankind

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14 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

I think the idea of seven levels of progression is not correct. Because the kingdom of God within, Luke 17:21, is much simpler than that. Seven in the Bible refers to the seven spirits of God in the heart of a child of God, and they are graduated from least to most intelligent; and they are used as guides to everyday living, where one's actions proceed from least precise to most precise, whatever the task. Everything depends on humbling oneself and becoming as a little child or one cannot experience the kingdom of God -- 3Nephi 11:38,39. There are no ladders of progression, your either a child of God or your not -- why do you complicate things? Because your using your reason instead of relying on direct truths from God: D&C section 9, verse 8: you must study it out and then ask God if it is right and if it is right he will cause your heart to burn with the spirit. When as a child of God you have 7 spirits in your heart then there are seven degrees of truth, from somewhat true to totally true or Holy Spirit.

I've posted these articles in other LDS forums as well, and the "nuh uh" folks always seem to chime in first. I mean, that makes sense given these truths require time to ponder and pray to consider by the Spirit. Casting aside a seed is easy and immediate:

Alma 32:39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

That's OK - As I stated to others in this thread, these articles aren't intended to reach anyone other than those who are ready to even consider the truths herein - and these truths are absolutely among those that you reference in Article of Faith 9. 

You presume to know enough of the mysteries to know what isn't by your remarks above, and you have not demonstrated how you know what things aren't. There are no ladders of progression? So you disagree with Joseph Smith (I believe I already quoted him here...did you happen to read that before chiming in? I'll paste it again here for your convenience.)

Joseph Smith: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave." HC 6:306-307

You'll forgive me if your "nuh uh" argument is already lost on me for just the reasons above. Your accusations of me complicating and using reason instead of truth is just not accurate. I have not revealed how I came to know these things as they are pearls that are unfit for those who disregard without consideration - without planting the seed of truth as I have with these truths that have grown and have tasted marvelous to me.

14 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

There are actually ten spirits to begin with (Daniel 1: 10 days and ten times) but God expects us to learn to live in the top 7 most-intelligent: Abraham 3: 18-19. Verse 19: there are two spirits one more intelligent than the other, and there shall be another spirit more intelligent than they, I am the lord thy God I am more intelligent than they all. But you might think that Abraham is about the spirits of the stars and planets only, but the truth is everything we can see is made out of balls of spirits that we cannot see. The edge or Firmament spirit is the spirit of God. Galaxies are the largest and lightest souls with innumerable-to-man spirits and a very highly-intelligent firmament spirit. Heavier souls of the stars within the galaxy are made out of a fewer number of rings or shells, and have a less-intelligent firmament than a Galaxy does. Next comes planets. Then all humans flora and fauna and atoms, all with souls.

I like what President Dieter F. Uchtdorf said in Feb. 2018 Ensign page 80: Isn't it a remarkable feeling to belong to a church that embraces truth -- no matter the source... and we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God: Articles of Faith verse 9.

So there are levels? As thaabit stated, we already believe in levels of successive progression. You cannot attend the temple unless you were baptized. You cannot be baptized unless you sustained the Son. You cannot be married in the temple unless .. you get the picture. The fact there are overarching levels of progression that traverse eternal rounds is, however, new to most LDS. It is nonetheless true. I too like what Elder Uchtdorf said. 

13 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

I said you complicate things because of your Reason. That means by the power of your mind you create ideas that you feel the scriptures represent. A child of God does not create ideas with power. If you use power you force the scriptures into a meaning, whereas the opposite is to allow the scriptures to speak meaning.

There are many writers who force the scriptures into a meaning, a meaning of might or power. Many Christians and Mormons fall into the trap of trying to worship both the Holy Spirit and the spirit of power. There are four ways people worship power, Isaiah 66:17: Idol: a group that worships a man or thing to bestow power, emotional colour gold, number 9; Mouse: clever words or precise-small actions that glamorize power, yellow, 8; Swine: unnaturally high intensity or lust, green, 6; Abomination or Might: a dark, slow, heavy spirit that is the accumulation of facts or actions to make a strong argument or immoveable fortress, black, 2. This is the false work-self soul, there is also a false work-sex soul and a false sex-self soul; the lust colours respectively are: Royal Blue and Maroon.

Zech. 5: the spirits of two false prophets: the perjurer is green-lust; the heavy lid on the basket is the abomination spirit, which is set up by worshipping lustful sex or maroon.

3Nephi: 11:38-39 You must repent and be baptised in my name and become as a little child or you can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Verily, verily I say unto you this is my doctrine and whosoever builds upon this builds upon my rock and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.


The genesis of these connections I made of the levels of mankind's progression were divine ... through studying and pondering and prayer - and most importantly - submitting to God's will is key to learning something new--especially when that new line or precept conflicts with earlier "understanding" that was presumed to be correct based of false assumptions, false conclusions, and false traditions. Joseph Smith struggled with the Saints and their clinging to false traditions. 

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” ~ Joseph Smith

I'm really not sure what points you are making with your second two paragraphs, though it sure seems you are somehow equating me to idols, clever words, swine, abomination, etc. I'm not sure why you even brought up sex-self soul and tossed in a couple of colors there. In fact at this point I'm not even sure why I'm taking the time to respond to you.

However, as with all truth, truth is opposed. I would be much more concerned if these truths were embraced outright without any opposition and if the "nuh uh" folks just passed by, choosing to spend their time and energy elsewhere on their important work.


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19 hours ago, thaabit said:

The church clearly attests at least 5 levels of glory composed of the Telestial, Terrestrial, and 3 levels of Celestial.  The D&C gives some explanations of the 3 major levels, but I've never seen any official declarations as to the gradations of the Celestial levels.  Most theories I've heard on them will say something like married vs single, but that is only two levels.  That there could be other sublevels is possible, imo.  The Ascension of Isaiah suggests at least 7 levels with many being split into a left and right division.  He is told he cannot ascend beyond the 7th heaven and then be able to return to his body iirc (insinuating further levels).    Also, Gileadi gleaned 7 spiritual levels from Isaiah with some correlations to Alaris' ideas, though not an exact mapping (not all levels of glory): http://www.isaiahexplained.com/resources/isaiahs-seven-spiritual-levels-of-humanity


I'd love to see that scripture reference on the inability to return beyond the 7th heaven.

Some assume that because there is a final judgement and a final assignment to Telestial, Terrestial, etc. that there is no progression through Terrestrial space whatsoever. In the temple, we traverse terrestrial space first before we arrive in Celestial space. Doesn't this make sense though? If no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, we are not magically going to be able to go from Telestial space to Celestial space and be master of Celestial living without learning to be masters of Terrestrial living first. The fact there are three degrees within the Celestial also implies that the higher degrees are holier than the lower, which is also overtly symbolized by the spaces in the temple, where the holiest space is the holy of holies! A holy space within a holy space that is not accessible to all. All these symbols are right there hiding in plain sight.

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On my mission, we received a beautiful sermon by one of the Seventy who spent a great deal of time enunciating the fact we are all independent spheres and always will be. We have to learn to be Gods. There is no magic wand that will make you perfect. There is no magic wand that will make you a good administrator, or a good judge, or have perfect passions. These have to be learned. 

D&C 93: 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

God has agency. You cannot be a God without agency. (Not you specifically thaabit, though yeah you too :) )

"to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." ~ Joseph Smith,  King Follett Sermon


Edited by Alaris
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6 hours ago, Alaris said:

I'd love to see that scripture reference on the inability to return beyond the 7th heaven.

Either I couldn't find it, misremembered it, or it's from something else (perhaps Emanuel Swedenborg).  Here is a translation you can peruse if you'd like: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ascension.html

It does say this:


8:11. I indeed say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has ascended or seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see.

This isn't scripture, it's pseudopigrapha, but it's interesting.  It suggests the idea of ascending and descending the various levels.  In the common vernacular we have the idea of a "seventh heaven," but also "cloud nine."


Doctrine and Covenants 131:1 - In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

I find it interesting that heavens is often plural and often in parallel with "earth" singular:


Genesis 2:1 - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

I also found that many instances have translated shammay-im (heavens) as heaven, singular. 


Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

"Heavens" in Gen 2:1 and "heaven" in Gen 1:1 are the same word.  Not sure why the confusion..

However, I should add that Strong's Concordance says it's a dual, not a plural, which would imply two heavens..

I feel like the D&C clarifies it--3 "heavens" in the Celestial glory.  I do find it interesting that the Book of Mormon, D&C, and PofGP use the word "heavens" about 100x and "heaven" about 300x.  I get that the OT and NT might have translation issues, but I'd be curious to really investigate the usage of singular vs plural in the other standard works.

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