Hans H. Mattsson, Area 70 On Mormon Stories

[ERayR]

I guess I expected more out of my Church.

What did you expect?

[Ahab]

Ahab Ahab can you only see in terms of black and white.

No I can also see in shades of gray while knowing those are a mix of both black and white.

There is only truth and what is not true, bro. If you can't see that way then you should work on it.

[ERayR]

No I can also see in shades of gray while knowing those are a mix of both black and white.

There is only truth and what is not true, bro. If you can't see that way then you should work on it.

You assume to usurp a task from me that I take very seriously. If you can assure me of absolution I will turn it over to you, Otherwise. . .

[Ahab]

You assume to usurp a task from me that I take very seriously. If you can assure me of absolution I will turn it over to you, Otherwise. . .

I'm not usurping or even volunteering to do your thinking for you. I'm just telling you what God has told me he thinks.

.. and you can either agree or not agree with him/me/us.

[ERayR]

I'm not usurping or even volunteering to do your thinking for you. I'm just telling you what God has told me he thinks.

.. and you can either agree or not agree with him/me/us.

I find it very disconcerting that to disagree with you I have to also disagree with God. But I will just assume that you erred and that to disagree with you is not turning my back on God.

[Teancum]

.

On the other hand I have met a few, albeit a very few, LDS members who are about as far from the Father as they can get. To paraphrase what Brigham Young once said: Nobody can outdo the Mormons. We have the best and we have the worst.

That is certainly true!!

[cinepro]

Years ago, I saw this happen with a former bishop who outed himself to a Trib reporter, with his all-so-supportive wife in tow. The end results were so very unhappy.

The wife, who chose to go and appear with him at conclaves where he was feted and pushed into the flashing cameras, kept getting to hear how disgusting her body was to him, and how he needed to free himself from the lie that was his consecrated and covenanted life. On some level she believed him, ultimately succumbing to the self-hate, as her body ate her womanhood, annihilating it and her.

The children? Neither daughter, now pushing 40, will ever marry, one son's succumbed to drugs and despair, while the "good" son, the one who went on a mission while all this was happening, spends his time trying to solve the world's problems (but none of his own) as a substitute for the family whose destruction Dad's narcissism wrought.

It's very glib and oh so worldly wise to say "that's just the way folks are," yet it is a cowardly approach to a very real and very destructive problem.

The Godbeite ilk have a lot to answer for.

That's a sad situation that you describe, but again, it hardly describes a situation unique to the ex-Mormon crowd. And even for them, that has to be a pretty severe outlier as far as ex-Mormon narratives go.

Regarding Brother Mattsson specifically, I suppose some would wish that he had kept his mouth shut and not publicized the problem. But I suspect Brother Mattsson would have wished that the Church could have actually answered his questions and not peddled such a whitewashed version of its history in Sweden.

So it sounds like no one's getting what they want.

[cinepro]

The Godbeite ilk have a lot to answer for.

What the heck are you talking about? Has Mattsson expressed sympathy with the religious or political beliefs of William Godbe? Or is this a label that is being applied for some unknown reason?

[canard78]

That's a sad situation that you describe, but again, it hardly describes a situation unique to the ex-Mormon crowd. And even for them, that has to be a pretty severe outlier as far as ex-Mormon narratives go.

Regarding Brother Mattsson specifically, I suppose some would wish that he had kept his mouth shut and not publicized the problem. But I suspect Brother Mattsson would have wished that the Church could have actually answered his questions and not peddled such a whitewashed version of its history in Sweden.

So it sounds like no one's getting what they want.

No one is listening to what they're actually saying because what they're saying goes against their personal 'world view.'

They presume that people who stop believing in every aspect of Mormonism will become sad little maggots who eat themselves through their misery and dispair.

I've got used to people needing to think that way. It's the nature of people who need certainty and absolutes in their life.

As I mentioned in your thread on teaching difficult history:

Brené Brown said:

The other thing we do is we make everything that's uncertain certain. Religion has gone from a belief in faith and mystery to certainty. I'm right, you're wrong. Shut up. That's it. Just certain.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

[canard78]

I'm not usurping or even volunteering to do your thinking for you. I'm just telling you what God has told me he thinks.

.. and you can either agree or not agree with him/me/us.

So now you've become The Prophet? You're version of the truth, the personalised curriculum that God taught you for your personal growth, became the version of the truth that also applies to ERayR and me and everyone else?

Do you enjoy winding people up?

[canard78]

Ahab Ahab can you only see in terms of black and white. Canard78 unless you don't have access to many LDS people I would say this (I have met more people outside of Mormonism than inside of it who are at greater "stages of advancement in our progression to be like our Father.") is a bit of hyperbole used for your own purposes. Whatever that may be. I have met and know a lot people who are not Church members who at advanced stages of being like the Father but they number comes nowhere close to outnumbering LDS members.

On the other hand I have met a few, albeit a very few, LDS members who are about as far from the Father as they can get. To paraphrase what Brigham Young once said: Nobody can outdo the Mormons. We have the best and we have the worst.

I should clarify what I said a little. I've always lived in a low-membership area. Most of the people I work with and am friends with are not Mormon, simply by principle of availability. Yes, I suppose it was hyperbole. What I meant was that the process of becoming more Christlike or more like our Father is possible outside of Mormonism.

I consider ordinances to be important to me. They create a clear set of covenants to act in a certain way. The actions lead to habits. The habits form character. It is character that makes us Christlike.

Some people become more Christlike without Mormon ordinances. I've met many who have and are, because of my circumstances in life.

I'm fine to acknowledge that for other people like you or Ahab it's the other way round, based on your surroundings and where you live. It's probably a simple matter of statistics that if we take 14mn vs 7billion there will be more in the second group who have developed Christlike attributes, simply by matter of volume. I'm not sure I agree with the Brigham Young quote, but I get where he's coming from.

[ERayR]

No one is listening to what they're actually saying because what they're saying goes against their personal 'world view.'

They presume that people who stop believing in every aspect of Mormonism will become sad little maggots who eat themselves through their misery and dispair.

I've got used to people needing to think that way. It's the nature of people who need certainty and absolutes in their life.

As I mentioned in your thread on teaching difficult history:

Brené Brown said:

http://www.ted.com/t...nerability.html

Nobody I know of believes those that leave the church will become sad little maggots. As far as I can tell that is a construct of some who leave. The members I associate with think the sad thing is that the one leaving the church finds other interest and the active members miss the association with them.

Edited July 26, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I should clarify what I said a little. I've always lived in a low-membership area. Most of the people I work with and am friends with are not Mormon, simply by principle of availability. Yes, I suppose it was hyperbole. What I meant was that the process of becoming more Christlike or more like our Father is possible outside of Mormonism.

I consider ordinances to be important to me. They create a clear set of covenants to act in a certain way. The actions lead to habits. The habits form character. It is character that makes us Christlike.

Some people become more Christlike without Mormon ordinances. I've met many who have and are, because of my circumstances in life.

I'm fine to acknowledge that for other people like you or Ahab it's the other way round, based on your surroundings and where you live. It's probably a simple matter of statistics that if we take 14mn vs 7billion there will be more in the second group who have developed Christlike attributes, simply by matter of volume. I'm not sure I agree with the Brigham Young quote, but I get where he's coming from.

Of course there are many, many people who are not LDS who are Christlike. If there weren't there would be no need to send out missionaries. The Church has a unique set of ordinances and promises to offer to those who are interested. There is another old High Priest and myself who have to remind some members of this. The members feel attacked by the antis and critics and it becomes easy to develop an us or them mentality. Understandable considering the cacophony raised against the Church out there.

[canard78]

Of course there are many, many people who are not LDS who are Christlike. If there weren't there would be no need to send out missionaries. The Church has a unique set of ordinances and promises to offer to those who are interested. There is another old High Priest and myself who have to remind some members of this. The members feel attacked by the antis and critics and it becomes easy to develop an us or them mentality. Understandable considering the cacophony raised against the Church out there.

Yes, I agree with this. I especially appreciate the phrase: "the church has a unique set of ordinances and promises to offer."

There is real value in our ordinances. Partly for their symbolic value and what they teach us about who we are and partly for the promises made and later kept which lead to who we become.

[USU78]

That's a sad situation that you describe, but again, it hardly describes a situation unique to the ex-Mormon crowd. And even for them, that has to be a pretty severe outlier as far as ex-Mormon narratives go.

Regarding Brother Mattsson specifically, I suppose some would wish that he had kept his mouth shut and not publicized the problem. But I suspect Brother Mattsson would have wished that the Church could have actually answered his questions and not peddled such a whitewashed version of its history in Sweden.

So it sounds like no one's getting what they want.

Outlier? You charm me with your naivete. The faithful Griselda wife in Mormondom who supports her husband's philandering with guys is so common as to be the stuff of parody.

As for "whitewash" being peddled, you do, of course, know that there are few Swedes who don't learn English in school and have a pretty fair facility, right? 86% per Wiki. To claim that the English language publications of the Church aren't available to Swedes is pretty naive as well. I won't use the term ludicrous.

[ERayR]

Outlier? You charm me with your naivete. The faithful Griselda wife in Mormondom who supports her husband's philandering with guys is so common as to be the stuff of parody.

As for "whitewash" being peddled, you do, of course, know that there are few Swedes who don't learn English in school and have a pretty fair facility, right? 86% per Wiki. To claim that the English language publications of the Church aren't available to Swedes is pretty naive as well. I won't use the term ludicrous.

Thanks I am glad you didn't say ludicrous.

[canard78]

Outlier? You charm me with your naivete. The faithful Griselda wife in Mormondom who supports her husband's philandering with guys is so common as to be the stuff of parody.

As for "whitewash" being peddled, you do, of course, know that there are few Swedes who don't learn English in school and have a pretty fair facility, right? 86% per Wiki. To claim that the English language publications of the Church aren't available to Swedes is pretty naive as well. I won't use the term ludicrous.

Eh? How does your last paragraph have any relevance to what was said by cinepro:

But I suspect Brother Mattsson would have wished that the Church could have actually answered his questions and not peddled such a whitewashed version of its history in Sweden.

[Questing Beast]

Of course there are many, many people who are not LDS who are Christlike. If there weren't there would be no need to send out missionaries. The Church has a unique set of ordinances and promises to offer to those who are interested. There is another old High Priest and myself who have to remind some members of this. The members feel attacked by the antis and critics and it becomes easy to develop an us or them mentality. Understandable considering the cacophony raised against the Church out there.

The "us and them" perspective is taught from the cradle inside of Mormonism. That's the core shared feature of exclusivity doctrine religions everywhere. It doesn't begin with apostates becoming critics or antis. Exclusivity doctrine is one of my core objections to believing in dogma, and it's all manmade dogma....

[Ahab]

I find it very disconcerting that to disagree with you I have to also disagree with God. But I will just assume that you erred and that to disagree with you is not turning my back on God.

Be careful about assumptions, though. The fact that you can assume something doesn't mean it is true.

Anytime the thoughts of anyone are the same as God's thoughts on an issue your assumption would be your error.

[USU78]

Eh? How does your last paragraph have any relevance to what was said by cinepro:

Stay with me: Swedes speak English at the rate of 86% of the population. Accordingly, they don't need to limit themselves to available Swedish-language Church resources for their education in Church matters. To claim, as my correspondent did, that dreck was being peddled instead of good, rigorous, historicicistical treatment of historical sources in the available Swedish resources ignores that Swedes aren't limited to Swedish-language resources, but also may reasonably be expected to peruse English-language resources . . . and there's also this thing called the Internet, which has been around since no later than the early '90s, with stuff being available and talked about since no later than that era.

In short, the assertion was ludicrous.

Not to mention the vacuity of the implicit assertion that TRVTH is suppressed in LDS circles.

[Tacenda]

Ok, did any of you that listened to the OP's podcast, hear that the prophet is advised not to keep a journal? And just the other day I listened to a podcast about the Mark Hoffman case where the investigators ask Pres. Hinckley if he keeps a journal or day planner, and he said he didn't have one. So maybe true, but that's odd, since for a long time we've been told to keep a journal.

[Duncan]

Ok, did any of you that listened to the OP's podcast, hear that the prophet is advised not to keep a journal? And just the other day I listened to a podcast about the Mark Hoffman case where the investigators ask Pres. Hinckley if he keeps a journal or day planner, and he said he didn't have one. So maybe true, but that's odd, since for a long time we've been told to keep a journal.

I suspect they keep a personal journal like some of us or not...hahaha! but maybe they don't keep a day to day journal of the incomings and outgoings of the office i.e. "met with Robin Banks, former Burglar extraordinaire, wanting to donate some of his ill gotten gain to the Church. Told him we appreciate his offer but to kindly and quietly buzz off"

[Scott Lloyd]

Stay with me: Swedes speak English at the rate of 86% of the population. Accordingly, they don't need to limit themselves to available Swedish-language Church resources for their education in Church matters. To claim, as my correspondent did, that dreck was being peddled instead of good, rigorous, historicicistical treatment of historical sources in the available Swedish resources ignores that Swedes aren't limited to Swedish-language resources, but also may reasonably be expected to peruse English-language resources . . . and there's also this thing called the Internet, which has been around since no later than the early '90s, with stuff being available and talked about since no later than that era.

In short, the assertion was ludicrous.

As a missionary to Sweden in the mid-'70s, I can attest from experience to what USU78 says here. All of the missionaries I knew from Sweden were fluent in English, as were nearly all of the Church members.

There were many Swedish-language curriculum materials and periodicals translated into Swedish, but many of the members simply used the English-language versions.

I had the opportunity to return to Sweden for Seatrek 2001. It would have been a perfect opportunity for me to brush up on my rusty Swedish. But though they raved about my facility with their language, I quickly realized it was far less trouble -- for the Swedes as well as me -- to spend most of my time communicating in English.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Stay with me: Swedes speak English at the rate of 86% of the population. Accordingly, they don't need to limit themselves to available Swedish-language Church resources for their education in Church matters. To claim, as my correspondent did, that dreck was being peddled instead of good, rigorous, historicicistical treatment of historical sources in the available Swedish resources ignores that Swedes aren't limited to Swedish-language resources, but also may reasonably be expected to peruse English-language resources . . . and there's also this thing called the Internet, which has been around since no later than the early '90s, with stuff being available and talked about since no later than that era.

In short, the assertion was ludicrous.

Not to mention the vacuity of the implicit assertion that TRVTH is suppressed in LDS circles.

Mattson said he studied Bushman, etc. did he not?

[Nevo]

Mattson said he studied Bushman, etc. did he not?

Mattsson said he read Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling, Brodie's No Man Knows My History, Newell and Avery's Mormon Enigma, Van Wagoner's Sidney Ridgon: A Portrait of Religious Excess, Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View and Mormon Hierarchy series, and Palmer's An Insider's Guide to Mormon Origins, among other things.

But these supplements to the "available Swedish-language Church resources" didn't resolve his doubts or remove the feeling that he'd been lied to.

.