How would a loving God NOT cease to be God if He eternally stopped the ability to progress of plants and animals?

[nuclearfuels]

Me again. 

Same topic as usual  

All creatures of our God and King - St Francis of Assisi

Quote

 

Animals have spirits (see D&C 77:2–3). Of course, there is a major difference between animals’ spirits and our spirits—we are begotten sons and daughters of Heavenly Father, and they are not.

And according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, there are at least some animals in heaven. He said:

“John saw curious looking beasts in heaven; … actually there, giving glory to God. … (See Rev. 5:13.) …

“I suppose John saw beings there of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,—strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. John learned that God glorified Himself by saving all that His hands had made, whether beasts, fowls, fishes or men (emphasis added by me, OP); and He will glorify Himself with them” (in History of the Church, 5:343). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/03/to-the-point/do-animals-have-spirits-what-happens-to-them-after-they-die?lang=eng

 

 

 

Quote

 

Moses 3:9. The Trees Became Living Souls

Moses 3:9 indicates that “every tree … became also a living soul.” Man, animals, and birds “were also living souls” (see Moses 3:7, 19). Doctrine and Covenants 88:15 teaches that a soul is a spirit and a body combined. On the subject of living things having souls, President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The idea prevails in general, I believe, in the religious world where the gospel truth is misunderstood, that man is the only being on the earth that has what is called a soul or a spirit. We know this is not the case, for the Lord has said that not only has man a spirit, and is thereby a living soul, but likewise the beasts of the field, the fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea have spirits, and hence are living souls” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:63).

 

“[E]very plant of the field before it was in the earth” was “created … spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5).

2. Multiply and replenish the earth, each after it's kind (Genesis and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2000/04/the-creation?lang=eng). This applies to plants and animals. 

3. How would a loving God not cease to be God if He eternally damned, meaning stopped the ability to progress, of plants and animals? (Surely their eternal progression is not completed when they die - unless they progress to eventually become King of Cats or King of Trees and populate their own earth with nothing but cats or trees. Possible but less likely than alternative progression paths, I think.) If plants and animals do not progress eternally (meaning eventually earnign free will, free agency, being bron as humans on an earth, etc.), God will be damning them “but little (plants and animals) are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter of (only humans) persons." Moroni 8:11–12; see also Doctrine and Covenants 20:71; 68:27.   

• Heavenly Father is an impartial God; He offers salvation to everyone (see Acts 10:34; see also 2 Nephi 26:33; D&C 1:35) and to all of His creations..

- 

2 Nephi 2: 13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

- -

Alma 42: 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice (God's love alone can not make His creations progress, meaning they all must one day choose for themselves.)? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

 

Alma 42: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/42?lang=eng

2 Nephi 2: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng&id=p13-p14#p13

Brigham Young on Eternal Progression: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-13?lang=eng

Eternal Progression sources: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?facet=manuals&lang=eng&query=eternal+progression&page=1 

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Me again. 

Same topic as usual  

All creatures of our God and King - St Francis of Assisi

 

 

“[E]very plant of the field before it was in the earth” was “created … spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5).

2. Multiply and replenish the earth, each after it's kind (Genesis and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2000/04/the-creation?lang=eng). This applies to plants and animals. 

3. How would a loving God not cease to be God if He eternally damned, meaning stopped the ability to progress, of plants and animals? (Surely their eternal progression is not completed when they die - unless they progress to eventually become King of Cats or King of Trees and populate their own earth with nothing but cats or trees. Possible but less likely than alternative progression paths, I think.) If plants and animals do not progress eternally (meaning eventually earnign free will, free agency, being bron as humans on an earth, etc.), God will be damning them “but little (plants and animals) are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter of (only humans) persons." Moroni 8:11–12; see also Doctrine and Covenants 20:71; 68:27.   

• Heavenly Father is an impartial God; He offers salvation to everyone (see Acts 10:34; see also 2 Nephi 26:33; D&C 1:35) and to all of His creations..

- 

2 Nephi 2: 13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

- -

Alma 42: 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice (God's love alone can not make His creations progress, meaning they all must one day choose for themselves.)? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

 

Alma 42: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/42?lang=eng

2 Nephi 2: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng&id=p13-p14#p13

Brigham Young on Eternal Progression: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-13?lang=eng

Eternal Progression sources: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?facet=manuals&lang=eng&query=eternal+progression&page=1 

The choice is His.

[manol]

One of the more thought-provoking models I've encountered for how eternal progression plays out is the "Molecular Relationship" by J J Dewey:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21242785-the-molecular-relationship

The idea is that there is a pattern of things on a simpler level coming together and combining to form something greater on a higher level whose properties transcend those of its constituent (simpler-level) parts.

For instance, multiple sub-atomic particles combine to form an atom, or an element, whose properties transcend those of its constituent electrons, protons, and neutrons.

Multiple atoms come together to form a molecule, again with properties which transcend those of its constituent atoms.  For example the element sodium is so reactive that it burns when exposed to air, and the element chlorine is a deadly gas, but combined they form sodium chloride, which is salt, which is necessary for life. 

Molecules called long-chain amino acids come together in a way that forms the first living single-cell organisms.  Multiple living cells combine in a way that forms the first multi-cell organisms, which includes the physical bodies that our spirits incarnated into.  

Dewey proposes that this pattern of progression we see in the physical realm is a reflection of the pattern of progression which exists in the spiritual realm.  He proposes that multiple lesser lives combine to form a greater life; that is, a life on the next higher level up.  Thus he sees multiple animal spirits as combining to form one human spirit, so animals would literally be our little brothers.  I presume the pattern includes plant lives too, but it's been a while and my memory is foggy.

One of the more interesting implications of this concept has to do with the "next level up" for human spiritual evolution.  This isn't what you asked about so I won't describe it unless you want me to, but it follows the same general pattern. 

Edited December 19, 2024 by manol

[nuclearfuels]

4 hours ago, manol said:

1. multiple lesser lives combine to form a greater life; that is, a life on the next higher level up.  Thus he sees multiple animal spirits as combining to form one human spirit, so animals would literally be our little brothers.  I presume the pattern includes plant lives too, but it's been a while and my memory is foggy.

2. One of the more interesting implications of this concept has to do with the "next level up" for human spiritual evolution.  This isn't what you asked about so I won't describe it unless you want me to, but it follows the same general pattern. 

1. Sounds possibly spot on. Also - seems logical like parts of a human or plant cell: alone they dont produce much but together it's quite another thing.

2. Yes please describe it or link it. Is it suggesting we merge with other people, to produce more? I never thought of unity with the Lord, God, etc. to work like that but....might make sense?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

3. How would a loving God not cease to be God if He eternally damned, meaning stopped the ability to progress, of plants and animals? (Surely their eternal progression is not completed when they die - unless they progress to eventually become King of Cats or King of Trees and populate their own earth with nothing but cats or trees

Do you believe nothing will live in Heaven but humans?  Why wouldn’t other lifeforms exist in these nonhuman heavens?

[The Nehor]

Isn’t this just reincarnation with extra steps?

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Me again. 

Same topic as usual  

All creatures of our God and King - St Francis of Assisi

 

 

“[E]very plant of the field before it was in the earth” was “created … spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5).

2. Multiply and replenish the earth, each after it's kind (Genesis and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2000/04/the-creation?lang=eng). This applies to plants and animals. 

3. How would a loving God not cease to be God if He eternally damned, meaning stopped the ability to progress, of plants and animals? (Surely their eternal progression is not completed when they die - unless they progress to eventually become King of Cats or King of Trees and populate their own earth with nothing but cats or trees. Possible but less likely than alternative progression paths, I think.) If plants and animals do not progress eternally (meaning eventually earnign free will, free agency, being bron as humans on an earth, etc.), God will be damning them “but little (plants and animals) are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter of (only humans) persons." Moroni 8:11–12; see also Doctrine and Covenants 20:71; 68:27.   

• Heavenly Father is an impartial God; He offers salvation to everyone (see Acts 10:34; see also 2 Nephi 26:33; D&C 1:35) and to all of His creations..

- 

2 Nephi 2: 13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

- -

Alma 42: 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice (God's love alone can not make His creations progress, meaning they all must one day choose for themselves.)? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

 

Alma 42: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/42?lang=eng

2 Nephi 2: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng&id=p13-p14#p13

Brigham Young on Eternal Progression: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-13?lang=eng

Eternal Progression sources: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?facet=manuals&lang=eng&query=eternal+progression&page=1 

The following quote from the Prophet Joseph is taken from his famous King Follett Discourse, the focus of which is on the Latter-Day Saint concept of eternal progression to godhood.

‘‘All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.”

Since all the animals on planet earth have spirits and minds (in a more rudimentary sense the spirits of plants may have minds as well), it follows that the minds of all animals are endowed with the capacity to continue to increase in intelligence, and no matter how intelligent the mind of a particular animal may become its mind will never lose the capacity to continue to increase in intelligence. If the Prophet Joseph Smith is correct, the implications of this principle are as astounding as they are mind boggling. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Doctrine and Covenants 76 — as it now stands — is presented as a basic introduction the concept of eternal progression, a thus far incomplete revelation that touches only lightly on the theme of the perfection of the soul.

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;  (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Edited December 20, 2024 by teddyaware

[manol]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Isn’t this just reincarnation with extra steps?

If you're referring to my post, maybe so but with a twist, or an upward spiral. 

If the word for multiple lesser entities combining to form a greater entity might be called "organizing", maybe this offers insight in the context of "intelligences that were organized before the world was".

 

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

2. Yes please describe it or link it. Is it suggesting we merge with other people, to produce more? I never thought of unity with the Lord, God, etc. to work like that but....might make sense?

Going by memory (I no longer have my copy of the book):

The next stage of human spiritual evolution would be a "human molecular unit" into which a higher life form could theoretically incarnate, sort of like the first self-sustaining, self-replicating assemblage of specialized long-chain amino acid molecules became the physical unit into which the spirit of the first single-cell life could incarnate.  

A "human molecular unit" would be composed of a plurality of "atoms", each "atom" consisting of a couple.  My understanding is that these could be male and female couples, same-sex couples, non-binary couples, and maybe even polycules.  The idea would be to become that which Christ and/or the Father literally dwells within, or among; to become a collective through which a higher life form could and would "incarnate"; to become Branches which fully (but not exclusively) embody the Vine. 

Perhaps our best (if not only) example of a human molecular unit is Jesus' original Twelve Apostles (and obviously, "molecular unit" is not a term they used!).  Dewey thinks the Twelve were couples, rather than just the men, each couple constituting an "atom".  When the Twelve were "organized", it was as if a higher life form temporarily incarnated or existed through them:  They could do the sorts of things Jesus did (and which he attributed to the Father - the higher life form - within him).  When the molecular unit was broken by Judas' betrayal of Jesus, they became ordinary men again.  Then when the molecular unit was restored, once again it was as if a higher life form unconstrained by our normal limitations existed through them:  They could heal the sick and cast out devils (mental illness?); be understood by people who didn't speaker their language; teleport; and in some cases even their shadow passing over someone could heal the person! 

There may even be a little bit of foreshadowing of this in the Temple:  At the culmination of the Endowment ceremony, multiple couples join together in a particular, prayerful “Order”, after which they enter the next higher level. 

Anyway I think it's possible that Joseph Smith was moving in this, or a similar, direction shortly before he was killed, but I haven't done the sort of research which might uncover support for this hypothesis. 

And I realize that the idea of a higher life in effect "incarnating" through individuals, or couples, or a collective of couples, is not consistent with LDS theology.  Nor do I claim to understand it fully, but can offer my limited, tentative understanding if you'd like.

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by manol

[CV75]

8 hours ago, manol said:

One of the more thought-provoking models I've encountered for how eternal progression plays out is the "Molecular Relationship" by J J Dewey:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21242785-the-molecular-relationship

The idea is that there is a pattern of things on a simpler level coming together and combining to form something greater on a higher level whose properties transcend those of its constituent (simpler-level) parts.

For instance, multiple sub-atomic particles combine to form an atom, or an element, whose properties transcend those of its constituent electrons, protons, and neutrons.

Multiple atoms come together to form a molecule, again with properties which transcend those of its constituent atoms.  For example the element sodium is so reactive that it burns when exposed to air, and the element chlorine is a deadly gas, but combined they form sodium chloride, which is salt, which is necessary for life. 

Molecules called long-chain amino acids come together in a way that forms the first living single-cell organisms.  Multiple living cells combine in a way that forms the first multi-cell organisms, which includes the physical bodies that our spirits incarnated into.  

Dewey proposes that this pattern of progression we see in the physical realm is a reflection of the pattern of progression which exists in the spiritual realm.  He proposes that multiple lesser lives combine to form a greater life; that is, a life on the next higher level up.  Thus he sees multiple animal spirits as combining to form one human spirit, so animals would literally be our little brothers.  I presume the pattern includes plant lives too, but it's been a while and my memory is foggy.

One of the more interesting implications of this concept has to do with the "next level up" for human spiritual evolution.  This isn't what you asked about so I won't describe it unless you want me to, but it follows the same general pattern. 

I've mused that symbiotic life forms living on and within the human body (bacteria, viruses, fungi, mites, etc.) show how, under the right stewardship, all forms of life under God's governance and unity can be mutually beneficial and share a common, synergetic joy. "Adam" the ultimate Human is / represents all existence and creation, individually and collectively. Without the whole, we are less but the lesser parts of the whole are not as they get gathered under someone else's stewardship.

[nuclearfuels]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

?

I guess it'd be a type of reincarnation but with direction. I think the eastern view of reincarnation is that rebirths occur in any direction, plant-human-animal-differnet animal-different plant -mayne human again. I'm understanding/interpreting eternal progression to include more than humans and to be one-directional 

[blackstrap]

Just what we need, a super intelligent mosquito or earth worm, yikes !!! 

Remember " Tremors ?"

Edited December 20, 2024 by blackstrap

[Mfbnew]

Guided evolution.  POOF! No problem.

Science is unable to see MEANINGS in what goes on around them.

Trees don't advance?

Where would humanity be today without God leaving us in the trees?   But wait- that was already a zillion years ahead of when trees were... I don't know- I am not a biologist.

No trees?   No place for we primates to grow up.  

It's Adam and Eve and opposition in all things!!.  Where do you think the "fruit of the tree" came from?  What do you think that story is about?  God's in change, he gives us some conflict for us to solve and POOF the problem goes away, and most important, WE GROW!

Yes he makes the environment and we get to figure out what to do with it.   A tweak here and a tweak there- you think our theory of "God" does not allow such a solution?

I would disagree.

This is why we need to EVOLVE our doctrine.  God makes the world change and we are not keeping up with the changes.   Our world is much different than Joseph's was.

The only thing slowing our progression is our old concepts.   The truth is eternal but the way we express it is not.  Our progress is only thwarted by our resistance to change.  You are looking in 1830 for a 2025 solution!   No wonder people leave the church!  To them it looks like NONSENSE! 

It ain't 1830 no more!  The Restoration was the key and those truths are still eternal, but our world and language has changed. 

 Keep the "truth" so we can change its EXPRESSION as we need to!   That's the key!

We got the idea of "evolution" - great!!  But now somehow alleged "science" that automatically IGNORES purpose and meaning - the HOWS of how things work while ignoring the WHYS!

What does science tell us about the "WHY" of creation, because all it sees-by choice- is HOW it came about.

Again- empirical theology includes BOTH science and room for religion.

THAT is what the Church of Jesus Christ needs now.   Change doctrine as needed- but keep the principles that God gave us.   No more polygamy - but we keep eternal marriage.

All races have the priesthood.

We just need to keep growing up!!

Edited December 20, 2024 by Mfbnew

[nuclearfuels]

8 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

No more polygamy

Agreed with you on all points except this one.

Advocating for the return of the inspired practice, first via SCOTUS then later via Inspiration

[3DOP]

If I were LDS, and believed in the King Follett discourse, I could be persuaded that it would be unloving for God to impede the progress of plants and irrational animals, and maybe more. The definition of the word "soul" as I have learned it since becoming Catholic is..."The principle of life in a material being." It does not necessarily infer a thinking creature capable of logical thought. This would include all vegetative life, and all animate life, both rational (human) and irrational (worms and amoeba to faithful hounds). They all have ability to reproduce and this is a truly wonderful phenomenon which rational man has never been able to recreate. It seems to me like we have to distinguish between minerals and plants, between plants and irrational animals, and then of those rational creatures made in God's image. It could be argued that all of the irrational creation has fulfilled its limited purpose. The rational creation? Nope, I don't think any of us think that it enjoys the perfection of the plants and irrational animals insofar as they never disobey the laws of nature. They cannot sin, or even conceive of the idea, unlike us.

So what about the mineral creation mentioned? Would God be unloving if rocks and rivers, or the atoms that make them up never experience for all eternity the ability for mobility, for reproduction? It seems like all Christians, including our LDS friends, could agree that each of the kinds of creation are made to love and praise their creator. The Psalms speak about the winds and the rain and the mountains and rivers singing praise to God already. If the minerals adore God without thinking already, and obey his laws perfectly already, and without having any desires for anything more, what are plants and animals that they should be sad because they aren't rational, like us. They never disobey God. They cannot do evil. Why must God bridge the chasm between sometimes sinful man and the good brutes who never fail to follow the law, precisely because they do not have intellect and free will. The plants and animals are said to "suffer" in the book of Romans and await the perfection of man. But they only suffer not because of what they have done, but what the rational creature has done in creation. (Rom. 8:19, 20)

In the promised new heaven and new earth, is there to be no distinction in creation? Must everything eventually become rational and then become God? And what about the parts of an animal or plant? Do we have the liberty to expect the skin of a beast or a man to simply be satisfied to be only a part of someone who is God? What about the atoms that make up the skin? I don't suppose atoms in the skin have any less mental activity than a peanut. Do they also need a way to progress to eternal deification? Or else God doesn't love His own creation? I am assured by mere observation of creation, as well as by His revelation to us in the Scripture that God loves what He made, better than any human artificer could ever love his finished product.

A happy and blessed Christmas to all!

Rory     

Edited December 27, 2024 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/19/2024 at 10:06 AM, manol said:

One of the more thought-provoking models I've encountered for how eternal progression plays out is the "Molecular Relationship" by J J Dewey:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21242785-the-molecular-relationship

The idea is that there is a pattern of things on a simpler level coming together and combining to form something greater on a higher level whose properties transcend those of its constituent (simpler-level) parts.

For instance, multiple sub-atomic particles combine to form an atom, or an element, whose properties transcend those of its constituent electrons, protons, and neutrons.

Multiple atoms come together to form a molecule, again with properties which transcend those of its constituent atoms.  For example the element sodium is so reactive that it burns when exposed to air, and the element chlorine is a deadly gas, but combined they form sodium chloride, which is salt, which is necessary for life. 

Molecules called long-chain amino acids come together in a way that forms the first living single-cell organisms.  Multiple living cells combine in a way that forms the first multi-cell organisms, which includes the physical bodies that our spirits incarnated into.  

Dewey proposes that this pattern of progression we see in the physical realm is a reflection of the pattern of progression which exists in the spiritual realm.  He proposes that multiple lesser lives combine to form a greater life; that is, a life on the next higher level up.  Thus he sees multiple animal spirits as combining to form one human spirit, so animals would literally be our little brothers.  I presume the pattern includes plant lives too, but it's been a while and my memory is foggy.

One of the more interesting implications of this concept has to do with the "next level up" for human spiritual evolution.  This isn't what you asked about so I won't describe it unless you want me to, but it follows the same general pattern. 

You might like the idea of holons. 

[BrotherofJared]

My first thought on this subject is, why do you or anyone think that God has stopped their progress? 

First, what is eternal progress? It isn't the acquisition of knowledge and power. That would assume God is still progressing in those areas and if he was still learning new things, that would mean he doesn't know all things or that he doesn't have all power. Eternal progress cannot be in those areas.

So, we have to answer that question first, what is meant by eternal progress and how does God progress who has all, knows all and has all power? Find the answer to that, and it shouldn't be hard to understand how animal continue to progress.

[Dario_M]

You know what i question myself. Why God doesn't stop all those horible diseases, like viruses (Corona, Ebola, HIV, and other nasty diseases). Or what do you think about Cancer for example? More and more people are getting cancer, at an increasingly younger age. That's something to worrie about. Why would God not stop the progress of all those horible diseases. It distroys so many lives. I wish that God would stop them all. That he would get rid of all those diseases. It would make life a lot more pleasent. The progress of plants and animals don't need to be stopped. Nature is part of life. It's Gods creation and it is beautiful. We even need nature to be able to live. It literaly saves our lives. 🌳

Edited January 3, 2025 by Dario_M

[sunstoned]

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

You know what i question myself. Why God doesn't stop all those horible diseases, like viruses (Corona, Ebola, HIV, and other nasty diseases). Or what do you think about Cancer for example? More and more people are getting cancer, at an increasingly younger age. That's something to worrie about. Why would God not stop the progress of all those horible diseases. It distroys so many lives. I wish that God would stop them all. That he would get rid of all those diseases. It would make life a lot more pleasent. The progress of plants and animals don't need to be stopped. Nature is part of life. It's Gods creation and it is beautiful. We even need nature to be able to live. It literaly saves our lives. 🌳

These are good questions.  Here is one more:  What would the world be like if there was no God?  What would be different than what we have now?

[Dario_M]

43 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

These are good questions.  Here is one more:  What would the world be like if there was no God?  What would be different than what we have now?

If there really is no God, there would be no hope in my opinion. Then we will all be hopelessly lost. Sooner or later. Death will have a totaly differend meaning for me if there really doesn't exist a God. For me it will mean that there will be nothing after this life. And after i die i will be lost forever. We all.

A super depressing idea. I don't even wanna imagine that this life is the only thing we have. That this is it.

But i don't believe that. I believe in life after death. But what does that afterlife look like. No idea lol. But i have experienced to many things that proof to me that there is way more then only this life. And that God plays a really big roll in it. So far this life (for me) has been such a big depressive disapointing sad thing. And the older i am, the worse it gets. My hope is in what comes after this life. But i've lost hope that anything good is about to happen anymore in the life i lead right now. 

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/27/2024 at 11:52 AM, 3DOP said:

.

Spot on, friend. 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. 

I associate atoms with intelligences, all of us on our own journey

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/27/2024 at 8:37 PM, BrotherofJared said:

how does God progress who has all, knows all and has all power?

Many years ago I remember reading somewhere that God progresses in glory as His children grow to be more like He was - kind of like a baseball player who later becomes a coach, who later becomes the best coach in the world.

\ALong the lines of:

As man is now, God once was.

As God is now, man may become.

[nuclearfuels]

On 1/3/2025 at 12:13 AM, Dario_M said:

More and more people are getting cancer, at an increasingly younger age

Due to certain experimental mRNA gene therapies marketed as something quite different. 

Environmental pollutions, etc. might be addressed at least in part by our federal gov't, not to name specific names but perhaps someone who's litigated big pharma for 40 years?

TOtally agree on how we need Nature to live.

[nuclearfuels]

On 1/3/2025 at 12:30 AM, sunstoned said:

What would the world be like if there was no God?

THe only way to remove the harmful effects of agency would be to remove agency itself. - ELder Maxwell

This woudl remove the possibility of progress from using agency wisely.

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Due to certain experimental mRNA gene therapies marketed as something quite different. 

Environmental pollutions, etc. might be addressed at least in part by our federal gov't, not to name specific names but perhaps someone who's litigated big pharma for 40 years?

TOtally agree on how we need Nature to live.

Yes indeed right... and what do you think about the food we consume. The steroids in the meat for example (i don't eat meat btw). Apart from the fact that i find it animal abuse to pomp an innocent cow full of steriods it's also just a danger for the people who eat meat because those steriods get inside the body. And that can cause cancer as well. But it's also just animal cruelty in my opinion. And because of that i am a vegetarian (for over 5 years now) and i don't eat any meat or fish. I believe that we as humanity need to change our ways. Because we're not only destroying this earth. But with that we're destroying ourselfs as well. I don't even wanna imagine in what kind of state this earth will be in about 30 a 40 years from now. The end of times is nocking on our door. And it will be a matter of time. But the next generation (the ones who are young now, children) will be facing a big mess when they get older. Massa destruction. And no way back. Plus the world population would be dubble the amount of people. It will be such a mess. And in all that destress and irritation about one another, there will be only 1 more world war that could be enough to wipe this whole earth away from it's grounds. 

Edited January 5, 2025 by Dario_M

[Calm]

On 1/2/2025 at 10:13 PM, Dario_M said:

More and more people are getting cancer, at an increasingly younger age.

Are they actually getting cancer more often or are we getting better at detecting (seeing traces), diagnosing (recognizing traces), and reporting it (getting the info into databases accessible for research)?  From what I am reading, the latter has had a big impact on increased rates…meaning actual rates didn’t change as much, but reported ones did.

Also the rate of childhood cancer has been steady since 2015 (which makes it unlikely anything in the last 5 years has increased the rate) according to a couple of sites I glanced at looking for the stats, but they may be out of date.  This might be because our ability to detect has reached a limit (the tech is catching almost all detectable cancers in children areas it is being used in the US) or something else****.  Many of the sites I am looking at are saying detection played a big part in rising rates, but at least one recent study has also found exposure to traffic pollution increases cancer.  OTOH, melanoma rates have dropped due to prevention efforts by parents (putting on sun block, wearing long sleeves and hats in sun, etc).

The very good news is the death rate due to cancer for children has dropped by over half over the last 50 years in the US.  I am guessing earlier detection is part of what they label as treatment,

Quote

After accidents, cancer is the second leading cause of death in children ages 1 to 14. About 1,040 children under the age of 15 are expected to die from cancer in 2024.

The cancer death rate has declined by more than half from 1970 to 2021 in both children and adolescents, largely due to improvements in treatment and high participation in clinical trials

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/types/cancer-in-children/key-statistics.html#:~:text=How common is cancer in,American Cancer Society.
 

****being able to detect cancer may not always be a good thing. In the past  increases of earlier breast cancer detection  may have led to many more surgeries etc which actually caused more deaths than the cancer would have (because cancer doesn’t always grow to be dangerous).  I say “may have” because my gynecologist brother in law pointed to a massive study supporting this which I checked out way back then, but I believe it was around 20 or more years ago and so that result may have changed (they may have gotten better at determining when to treat and when not to) or there may have been found flaws with the study.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Calm