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The Seven Deadly Heresies

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

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I think Joseph was very open to what people can have opinions on, and not run afoul of teaching false doctrine after instruction.

So yes or no?  Did he never correct someone and tell them they needed to stop teaching false doctrine?

Questing Beast Veteran

Questing Beast

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So yes or no?  Did he never correct someone and tell them they needed to stop teaching false doctrine?

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/journal-1835-1836?dm=image-and-text&zm=zoom-inner&tm=expanded&p=30&s=undefined&sm=none Robert Matthews, "Joshua the Jewish Minister", or Robert Mathias, or Mathias, et al., was hosted by JS in 1835, and told by JS that his doctrine was of the devil, and his god was the devil, etc....

Bill “Papa” Lee Grand Master

Bill “Papa” Lee

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It was a great talk.  Doesn't mean we have to agree with him that these are all heresies.  After all, some (most) of them were taught by the prophets of the Church.

I made it clear, good job one the first post and the talk the greatest I have ever heard live. Let's see if I can truly quote from memory his closing words, and those who know me this is a true attempt...

"I am one of his witnesses and in the coming days, I will feel the nail prints in his hands wet his feet with my tears. But I will not know Better than I know now, that he is God's almighty Son and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way. God grant that we may walk in the light as he is in the light"

Prophet, Seer and Revelator (hope I spelled that last word right) Elder Bruce R McConkie

How did I do?

Also I am not suggested any have to believe as I do and I do not see how it matters that other (Prophet should always be capitalized, unless one believes they are not "Prophets) "Prophets taught it, he never claimed they were his doctrines revealed to God by him.

Lightbearer Rising Star

Lightbearer

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Full Speech by Bruce R. McConkie in 1980: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658

 

Does anybody agree that all seven items on this list are heresies?

Yes I agree with all seven items and they are heresies. I will explain why:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

The Restored Gospel teaches us that God knows all things and there is not anything that He does not know.

 

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.

I absolutely agree with Elder McConkie's explaination here, I cannot harmonize the idea that there was death before the fall.

 

Heresy Three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.

It is rather a no brainer to know that this is a heresy, much akin to the "saved by grace" fantasy that many espouse that we can be saved no matter what we do. If we do not keep our covenants we cannot have the blessings.

 

Heresy Four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

Here again basic doctrine of the Church, we do not get a second chance, salvation for the dead (in the Celestial Kingdom) is reserved for those who "would have received it with all their hearts had they had the opportunity. If rejected in this life (and only God can make that judgement) and if it is accepted later then the highest kingdom is the Terrestrial (at least according to D&C 76)

 

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

Here again total speculation, there is not progression between the Telestial and the Terrestrial or Celestial at least according to D&C 76 "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come worlds without end..."

 

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

This has been denounced repeatedly and I will not go into detail why it is an untenable teaching. My understanding is that we are spirit children of Elohim the Father not Michael or Adam who is the father of our flesh. In as much as he is a prototype of salvation and as he has attained exaltation, he is a God, but he is not the only God with which we have to do. We worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

Here again, if one reads and studies the scriptures as Elder McConkie has then one would know the truth about perfection in Christ.

 

I hate it that so many try to say the Elder McConkie did not know what he was talking about, he knew and taught more about the restored Gospel than anyone on this board. I would pit his teachings against any of the damnedable hereries that are being foisted on the world today. He was hated by many in his lifetime and here 30 years after his death he is vilified. I stand as a friend to Elder McConkie, though I never had the privledge of meeting him in person I was inspired by his teachings and writings all my life and I always admired his courage of his convictions. One thing he was never accused of and that of watering down the principles of the Gospel of Christ. He always stood like a lion against the enemies of the Church both without and within and he is one of the great apostles of the 20th century.

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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

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Yes I agree with all seven items and they are heresies. I will explain why:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

The Restored Gospel teaches us that God knows all things and there is not anything that He does not know.

 

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.

I absolutely agree with Elder McConkie's explaination here, I cannot harmonize the idea that there was death before the fall.

 

Heresy Three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.

It is rather a no brainer to know that this is a heresy, much akin to the "saved by grace" fantasy that many espouse that we can be saved no matter what we do. If we do not keep our covenants we cannot have the blessings.

 

Heresy Four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

Here again basic doctrine of the Church, we do not get a second chance, salvation for the dead (in the Celestial Kingdom) is reserved for those who "would have received it with all their hearts had they had the opportunity. If rejected in this life (and only God can make that judgement) and if it is accepted later then the highest kingdom is the Terrestrial (at least according to D&C 76)

 

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

Here again total speculation, there is not progression between the Telestial and the Terrestrial or Celestial at least according to D&C 76 "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come worlds without end..."

 

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

This has been denounced repeatedly and I will not go into detail why it is an untenable teaching. My understanding is that we are spirit children of Elohim the Father not Michael or Adam who is the father of our flesh. In as much as he is a prototype of salvation and as he has attained exaltation, he is a God, but he is not the only God with which we have to do. We worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

Here again, if one reads and studies the scriptures as Elder McConkie has then one would know the truth about perfection in Christ.

 

I hate it that so many try to say the Elder McConkie did not know what he was talking about, he knew and taught more about the restored Gospel than anyone on this board. I would pit his teachings against any of the damnedable hereries that are being foisted on the world today. He was hated by many in his lifetime and here 30 years after his death he is vilified. I stand as a friend to Elder McConkie, though I never had the privledge of meeting him in person I was inspired by his teachings and writings all my life and I always admired his courage of his convictions. One thing he was never accused of and that of watering down the principles of the Gospel of Christ. He always stood like a lion against the enemies of the Church both without and within and he is one of the great apostles of the 20th century.

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

 

We might ask, when shall we cease to learn? I will give you my opinion about it; never, never. If we continue to learn all that we can, pertaining to the salvation which is purchased and presented to us through the Son of God, is there a time when a person will cease to learn? Yes, when he has sinned against God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost—God's minister; when he has denied the Lord, defied Him and committed the sin that in the Bible is termed the unpardonable sin—the sin against the Holy Ghost. That is the time when a person will cease to learn, and from that time forth, will descend in ignorance, forgetting that which they formerly knew, and decreasing until they return to the native element, whether it be one thousand or in one million years, or during as many eternities as you can count. They will cease to increase, but must decrease, until they return to the native element. These are the only characters who will ever cease to learn, both in time and eternity. - Brigham Young

 

It has been stated that God our Father comprehends eternity, from eternity to eternity, all there is, all there was, all there ever can be about eternity, in and through it. When a person undertakes to establish such a doctrine, what does he do? He gives bounds to that eternity which he at the same time admits to be boundless. Admit such doctrine, and eternity flees away like the shadow of morning; and that is as much as I ever teach about it. - Brigham Young

 

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.

No argument.

 

Heresy Three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually. 

 

Not those who marry, but those who receive all the ordinances & Calling and Election

D&C 132:26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.

 

Heresy Four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

Agreed.  Salvation for the dead is for those who never had the first chance.

 

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

 

But if there are kingdoms higher than Celestial then progression must continue:

D&C 130:10-11 Then the white astone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a bhigher order of kingdoms will be made known

And a awhite stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new bname written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

 

Also, that those in the Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial condition stay there without change forever is simply illogical.  It would not work.

 

 

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

 

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken--HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. - Brigham Young

"Adam is our father and God and no use to discuss it with [the] Josephites or any one else." - Wilford Woodruff

 

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

Only as perfect in our sphere as Christ is in his - Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore bperfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is dperfect.

Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

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I suspect there are certain beliefs which if you really held them and published them would put you outside the tent of Mormonism. I don't think McKonkie's list is a very good one.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

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 (Prophet should always be capitalized, unless one believes they are not "Prophets)

Well, I'd happily fix that error, if I could figure out how to edit or delete a posted comment.  Being new here I haven't quite figured out the board yet.

Lightbearer Rising Star

Lightbearer

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Posted

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

 

We might ask, when shall we cease to learn? I will give you my opinion about it; never, never. If we continue to learn all that we can, pertaining to the salvation which is purchased and presented to us through the Son of God, is there a time when a person will cease to learn? Yes, when he has sinned against God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost—God's minister; when he has denied the Lord, defied Him and committed the sin that in the Bible is termed the unpardonable sin—the sin against the Holy Ghost. That is the time when a person will cease to learn, and from that time forth, will descend in ignorance, forgetting that which they formerly knew, and decreasing until they return to the native element, whether it be one thousand or in one million years, or during as many eternities as you can count. They will cease to increase, but must decrease, until they return to the native element. These are the only characters who will ever cease to learn, both in time and eternity. - Brigham Young

 

It has been stated that God our Father comprehends eternity, from eternity to eternity, all there is, all there was, all there ever can be about eternity, in and through it. When a person undertakes to establish such a doctrine, what does he do? He gives bounds to that eternity which he at the same time admits to be boundless. Admit such doctrine, and eternity flees away like the shadow of morning; and that is as much as I ever teach about it. - Brigham Young

I see your Brigham Young quotes... Journal of Discourses? And raise you the Stardard Works:

  "O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:20)

Another scripture states:

 "THUS saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 38:1-3)

Now I never have accepted the JD as scripture but the Book of Mormon I have. I could give a few other quotes but I think these are enough to prove my point.

 

Glad we agree on heresy two.

As for three, I believe Elder McConkie was referring to those who mistakenly thought that the ordinance itself could seal up a person no matter what they did. He had no reference to having a calling and election sure, even then a person who has such a blessing could commit certain sins for which they could not be forgiven but that is another topic. As the general idea it is a heresy to think that we can be exalted by virtue of the ordinances alone, all blessings are conditioned on obedience to the covenants we make with God.

Also agree on Heresy 4.

Now as for this:

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

 

But if there are kingdoms higher than Celestial then progression must continue:

D&C 130:10-11 Then the white astone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a bhigher order of kingdoms will be made known

And a awhite stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new bname written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

 

Also, that those in the Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial condition stay there without change forever is simply illogical.  It would not work.

Now as for there being Kingdoms of a Higher order than the Celestial we do not know. However God has told us that if we are exalted we receive ALL that He has. Which includes access to any higher kingdoms via the white stone. This is speculation of course but it really is not what Elder McConkie was talking about. He was referring to moving from the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial which it catagorically states is not true in the following in the scriptures:

 "But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:109-112)

Perhaps not logical, but rather final. This idea of progressing between kingdoms comes from an old pamplet on the Three Degrees of Glory, and is speculation and was not offical teachings of the Church. There are no scriptures in the standard works that back up the idea.

 

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

 

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken--HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. - Brigham Young

"Adam is our father and God and no use to discuss it with [the] Josephites or any one else." - Wilford Woodruff

Again the Brigham quote is from Journal of Discourses and I do not remember it ever being accepted as a standard work and this idea is not a doctrine of the Church. We do not teach it today, or even in the recent past (last 50 years or so). You can quote this till doomsday and while I do not know if it is an error in reporting or if BY ever taught it, it is not part of the doctrines of this Church so for me it is irrelevant. It is mostly used by Anti-Mormons to try to defame Brigham Young and to confuse the gullible into thinking that the Church has some hidden doctrine. I still stand with BRM on this one.

 

Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

Only as perfect in our sphere as Christ is in his - Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore bperfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is dperfect.

 

Not sure if you are agreeing or not on this one. Of course I agree absolutely with the scripture in Matthew and other teachings that indicate that we must be perfect to be saved. In fact let me quote Elder McConkie on this point:

"Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

This is not really a great heresy, only a doctrinal misunderstanding that I mention here in order to help round out our discussion and to turn our attention from negative to positive things. If we keep two principles in mind we will thereby know that good and faithful members of the Church will be saved, even though they are far from perfect in this life.

These two principles are (1) that this life is the appointed time for men to prepare to meet God—this life is the day of our probation; and (2) that the same spirit which possesses our bodies at the time we go out of this mortal life shall have power to possess our bodies in that eternal world.

What we are doing as members of the Church is charting a course leading to eternal life. There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity. The prophet taught that there are many things to be done, even beyond the grave, in working out our salvation.

And so what we do in this life is chart a course leading to eternal life. That course begins here and now and continues in the realms ahead. We must determine in our hearts and in our souls, with all the power and ability we have, that from this time forward we will press on in righteousness; by so doing we can go where God and Christ are. If we make that firm determination, and are in the course of our duty when this life is over, we will continue in that course in eternity. That same spirit that possesses our bodies at the time we depart from this mortal life will have power to possess our bodies in the eternal world. If we go out of this life loving the Lord, desiring righteousness, and seeking to acquire the attributes of godliness, we will have that same spirit in the eternal world, and we will then continue to advance and progress until an ultimate, destined day when we will possess, receive, and inherit all things." Elder Bruce R McConkie

In fact if one looks at what he said about each point I find it hard to disagree with him on any of these points.And for those who like to attack Elder McConkie and say he was some sort of dogmatic dictator that was speaking out of turn even though he was an apostle of Jesus Christ just as much as Paul or Peter or any of the apostles I suggest reading this statement in the talk:

"Now I do not say these are the only great heresies that prevail among us. There are others that might be mentioned. My suggestion, relative to all doctrines and all principles, is that we become students of holy writ, and that we conform our thinking and our beliefs to what is found in the standard works. We need to be less concerned about the views and opinions that others have expressed and drink directly from the fountain the Lord has given us. Then we shall come to a true understanding of the points of his doctrine. And if we pursue such a course, we will soon find that it proceeds in a different direction than the one that the world pursues. We will not be troubled with the intellectual views and expressions of uninspired people. We will soon obtain for ourselves the witness of the Spirit that we are pursuing a course that is pleasing to the Lord, and this knowledge will have a cleansing and sanctifying and edifying influence upon us." Elder Bruce R McConkie

Still I say, a great man, a great Apostle, a great prophet, seer, and revelator (we sustain all of the 12 apostles as such every conference) and his teachings are sound and I defy anyone to say otherwise.

canard78 Grand Master

canard78

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I would agree with 3,6, and 7.

Me too. I'm ok with those three. The others are uncomfortable reading. It's sometimes a shame to consider the dogmatic influence some of the leaders have had on a church whose founder enjoyed the liberty of believing whatever he wanted and refused to be "tramelled."

I'm glad I stil can believe whatever I want and I'm grateful for leaders like President Uchtdorf who encourage me to find my own truth. But it does mean that those influenced by people like McConkie can get quite uncomfortable around me.

canard78 Grand Master

canard78

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So storm rider and light bearer agree with all seven. Did anyone else agree with all seven, did I miss anyone (pa pa?)

The fact that the majority don't say they do is reassuring.

Storm Rider Grand Master

Storm Rider

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Me too. I'm ok with those three. The others are uncomfortable reading. It's sometimes a shame to consider the dogmatic influence some of the leaders have had on a church whose founder enjoyed the liberty of believing whatever he wanted and refused to be "tramelled."

I'm glad I stil can believe whatever I want and I'm grateful for leaders like President Uchtdorf who encourage me to find my own truth. But it does mean that those influenced by people like McConkie can get quite uncomfortable around me.

I think it is a mischaracterization that Joseph believed or taught that this life was a free-for-all of religious belief and still be a follower of Christ. The disciples of Christ are to be of one heart and one mind. Joseph taught that others were free to believe what they wanted, but Truth has value and the Truth will bind those who follow.

There is no such thing as uniqueness of belief within those that stand before the Father. The objective is to learn truth.

Storm Rider Grand Master

Storm Rider

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So storm rider and light bearer agree with all seven. Did anyone else agree with all seven, did I miss anyone (pa pa?)

The fact that the majority don't say they do is reassuring.

That big house across the way; why do you think it is so big? Patting oneself on the back so much because of others admiration and agreement is hardly a sign of those who follow. It may be time to reaches rathe than condemn others.

Also, you would never make me uncomfortable; amused, but not uncomfortable.

Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

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So storm rider and light bearer agree with all seven. Did anyone else agree with all seven, did I miss anyone (pa pa?)

The fact that the majority don't say they do is reassuring.

 

I certainly do not agree with all 7.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

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I see your Brigham Young quotes... Journal of Discourses? And raise you the Stardard Works:

Quote

Another scripture states:

  "O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:20)

Quote

 "THUS saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 38:1-3)

I don't want to get into a back and forth, but I do want to raise a couple of points.

1st - I don't think Brigham's teachings and the scriptures do disagree on God knowing all things or increasing in knowledge.  I think that the scriptures refer to God knowing all things that are in heaven and in earth, in eternity, and pertaining to the creations etc.  I think Brigham was saying that since God was once a man like us and since knowledge is infinite, that it is impossible for a progressing being to ever stop learning and to achieve knowledge of everything.  Brigham clearly meant that there were kingdoms and knowledge of kingdoms higher than the level God has been exalted to but God knows all pertaining to the sphere he is in.

I don't find these two viewpoints contradictory at all....***sings "If You Could Hie To Kolob" to himself quietly***

 

 

He was referring to moving from the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial which it catagorically states is not true in the following in the scriptures:

 

 "But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:109-112)

Well, this scripture is easy to explain in light of Joseph Smith's teaching that the Savior worked so that : "My Father worked out his kingdom in fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself." TPJS 347-348.

 

In other words, yes, those who are assigned to the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms can never enter into their Father's presence again, but that is because he is moving onward, the Savior is moving onward, and they can never catch up.  The scriptures also say that the Celestial will administer to the Terrestrial - this can have no purpose unless it is to bring them to a higher level instead of allowing the to dwell in halted progression forever.

 

Finally, I just have to say I don't see any reason why I should give more doctrinal credence to what an admittedly brilliant scholarly apostle said in the 1970's than to what God's mouthpiece, Prophet, and President of the Church Brigham Young taught in conference, across the pulpit, as Church doctrine in the 1850's.  One of them was taught the Gospel personally by the restoring Prophet and dispensation head Joseph Smith and has recorded direct revelation from the Lord.  The other read a lot of books.

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Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

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I don't want to get into a back and forth, but I do want to raise a couple of points.

1st - I don't think Brigham's teachings and the scriptures do disagree on God knowing all things or increasing in knowledge.  I think that the scriptures refer to God knowing all things that are in heaven and in earth, in eternity, and pertaining to the creations etc.  I think Brigham was saying that since God was once a man like us and since knowledge is infinite, that it is impossible for a progressing being to ever stop learning and to achieve knowledge of everything.  Brigham clearly meant that there were kingdoms and knowledge of kingdoms higher than the level God has been exalted to but God knows all pertaining to the sphere he is in.

I don't find these two viewpoints contradictory at all....***sings "If You Could Hie To Kolob" to himself quietly***

 

Well, this scripture is easy to explain in light of Joseph Smith's teaching that the Savior worked so that : "My Father worked out his kingdom in fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself." TPJS 347-348.

 

In other words, yes, those who are assigned to the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms can never enter into their Father's presence again, but that is because he is moving onward, the Savior is moving onward, and they can never catch up.  The scriptures also say that the Celestial will administer to the Terrestrial - this can have no purpose unless it is to bring them to a higher level instead of allowing the to dwell in halted progression forever.

 

Finally, I just have to say I don't see any reason why I should give more doctrinal credence to what an admittedly brilliant scholarly apostle said in the 1970's than to what God's mouthpiece, Prophet, and President of the Church Brigham Young taught in conference, across the pulpit, as Church doctrine in the 1850's.  One of them was taught the Gospel personally by the restoring Prophet and dispensation head Joseph Smith and has recorded direct revelation from the Lord.  The other read a lot of books.

 

Excellent reasoning.  Gave you a bump on this.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

I still say that naming Adam as Michael is a heresy. Archangels don't become humans. They breed with humans to create the best abominations ever...nephilim. And then we later get Elioud.

 

That depends on your definition of angel/archangel.  If you believe that angels are a different species to us you would be right.  But since Mormonism teaches that God, angels and man are all the same species at different levels of progression and archangel is simply a chief angel, or leader, then you would be wrong.  Why would Adam be any less qualified to be a chief angel than any other dispensation head?

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

So yes or no?  Did he never correct someone and tell them they needed to stop teaching false doctrine?

 

He obviously did. However I don't know of any action he took against a member for simple belief. From what I have read about him he seems more than willing let members believe whatever they wanted as long as it didn't contradict what was taught.

Damien the Leper Grand Master

Damien the Leper

Posted
Posted (edited)

That depends on your definition of angel/archangel.  If you believe that angels are a different species to us you would be right.  But since Mormonism teaches that God, angels and man are all the same species at different levels of progression and archangel is simply a chief angel, or leader, then you would be wrong.  Why would Adam be any less qualified to be a chief angel than any other dispensation head?

I do believe they are a different species according to the traditional, mystical and mythological definitions that are orthodox. The Fallen are not would-be-humans "had they obeyed and ranked and filed". I'm not aware of anything in the Hebrew Canon or pseudepigrapha, such as the Books of Enoch, that would validate the LDS interpretation.

Edited by Valentinus
thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

The Sepent is the Devil.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/12-9.htm

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

 

 

The War in Heaven is in the Bible.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-War-in-Heaven/

Damien the Leper Grand Master

Damien the Leper

Posted
Posted

The Sepent is the Devil.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/12-9.htm

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

 

 

The War in Heaven is in the Bible.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-War-in-Heaven/

 

Lucifer still got a bad rap. I like the guy. I don't view him as the source of all evil. That's just silly. Someone had to inspire him to do "wrong".

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