The Savior's Suffering in Gethsemane / Is Justice just a big jerk?

[nuclearfuels]

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

[Rain]

46 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Interesting question. I don't mean to be short about it.  Just never thought about the suffering Jesus did being endless. 

Does suffering need to be completed before you can go to the Celestial kingdom?  If so it would seem that the answer would need to be a.  If not, I don't know.

46 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

I've always thought of it like a law.

46 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

 

[The Nehor]

The Savior created the world knowing what it would become. While sinless it is also, in a sense, His fault.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant

Don’t the verses you quote suggest otherwise though? 
 

Endless appears to be about being given under the authority of God rather than there is no end to it.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

Scripture seems to say Christ's sacrifice is better than animal sacrifices as it doesn't require that he should suffer repeatedly,

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:25-27

It reminds me of a Christian trope that future sins makes Jesus suffer all over again or retroactively contributed to his past suffering that was already done for it. I don't think Jesus suffers for every sin, forever more. No clear basis for it.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

I think these things are meant in terms of quality, not quantity since spiritual, eternal meaning is not measured, and reckoning depends on the eternal perspective of the one or One doing the reckoning.

[JAHS]

14 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

"In referring to the judgment that comes upon those who choose not to repent of their sins, the terms “endless punishment” and “eternal punishment” (see D&C 19:11–12) do not refer to the length of time that the wicked will suffer. The Savior said, “I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name” (D&C 19:10). Because the Savior is Endless and Eternal, the terms “endless punishment” and “eternal punishment” refer to the source of punishment rather than the duration. (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual)

[Stargazer]

I was going to post a short reply to @Pyreaux, but it grew very long. And then I doubted if I should actually post it. The problem is, many people feel they know what the Atonement is, but their ideas tend to vary from each other all over the map. I've presented my own ideas from time to time, and even though I feel my arguments for my answer are very logical and consistent with the scriptures, I was surprised to find people disagreeing most heartily with me. So, I'm hesitant, not because I fear disagreement, but because I do not want to stir further contention over a precious subject.

On my mission, I served with a missionary who later became a general authority. Much later, not long before he passed away, I wrote to him with some thoughts on the Atonement, and invited his input. While he mostly agreed with what I wrote, he had some differences that he suggested might come closer to the center core of the matter. I incorporated his thoughts into my own. He asked me not to attribute what he wrote to him by name. Reasoning "...because I do not want anyone to think I am endorsing or claiming to speak with special authority on doctrinal matters."

The first part of what he wrote, the sharing of which I feel does not go against the spirit of his request, goes like this:

"I believe there are many different, yet correct, ways to look at and think about the Atonement. Whenever I read any explanation of the Atonement, I am inclined to think of it as one more way of looking at and illuminating the Lord’s infinite and eternal sacrifice, which is like a jewel too vast for us to comprehend fully. Hence, each explanation looks at it from a different angle, and each has merit. I never feel that one is necessarily the best or final explanation."

I realize that by saying he was a general authority I may seem to be attempting to borrow his authority. Perhaps I am, but I'm borrowing it only so as to open up, rather than close down, any discussion about how the Atonement is to be understood. And not to try to claim authority for my own ideas.

 

[teddyaware]

16 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

So - 

1. The Savior satisfied the demands of Justice - by paying the price Justice requires as the consequence of the sins of mankind.

2. Those who do not repent must endure endless torment and endless, eternal punishment according to eternal laws, including that of Justice. To me, this seems like a very long time which will be very unpleasant. I dont get why someone woudl choose this, nor why Justice would have nothing better to do than continually gnaw at the souls of the guilty. 

3. Therefore: Justice will be satisfied either by the Savior or by us stubborn mortals - BUT if it's endless, does that mean that the Savior:

a. endured endless torment and endless, eternal punishment and suffered an eternity of guilt, pain, anguish, and repentance (?) in Gethsemane which satisfies Justice - eternally, or

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.  

I imagine it's a. but wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I think Justice though carrying out his/her role and function - is just a big jerk.

Also, is Justice like a personage or more like gravity, that is to say, a law?

D&C 19:

3...I shall... ^djudge every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

During your ponderings, did you ever factor in to your thoughts the following verses of scripture that clearly indicate when God casts the sons of perdition into hell it’s actually an act of mercy?

3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be HAPPY to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be MORE MISERABLE to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell? (Mormon 9)

Thanks to the Book of Mormon you no longer have to have to be perplexed about the possibility of there being any potential unfairness or inequity within the law of justice, because in the case of those who are cast into outer darkness it’s actually an example of God’s mercy at work.

Edited April 19, 2023 by teddyaware

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I was going to post a short reply to @Pyreaux, but it grew very long. And then I doubted if I should actually post it. The problem is, many people feel they know what the Atonement is, but their ideas tend to vary from each other all over the map. I've presented my own ideas from time to time, and even though I feel my arguments for my answer are very logical and consistent with the scriptures, I was surprised to find people disagreeing most heartily with me. So, I'm hesitant, not because I fear disagreement, but because I do not want to stir further contention over a precious subject.

On my mission, I served with a missionary who later became a general authority. Much later, not long before he passed away, I wrote to him with some thoughts on the Atonement, and invited his input. While he mostly agreed with what I wrote, he had some differences that he suggested might come closer to the center core of the matter. I incorporated his thoughts into my own. He asked me not to attribute what he wrote to him by name. Reasoning "...because I do not want anyone to think I am endorsing or claiming to speak with special authority on doctrinal matters."

The first part of what he wrote, the sharing of which I feel does not go against the spirit of his request, goes like this:

"I believe there are many different, yet correct, ways to look at and think about the Atonement. Whenever I read any explanation of the Atonement, I am inclined to think of it as one more way of looking at and illuminating the Lord’s infinite and eternal sacrifice, which is like a jewel too vast for us to comprehend fully. Hence, each explanation looks at it from a different angle, and each has merit. I never feel that one is necessarily the best or final explanation."

I realize that by saying he was a general authority I may seem to be attempting to borrow his authority. Perhaps I am, but I'm borrowing it only so as to open up, rather than close down, any discussion about how the Atonement is to be understood. And not to try to claim authority for my own ideas.

I'm a bit of a minimalist, and I don't do metaphysics. It could be a grand cosmological mystery, but I just think there no need to over complicate things. Is it not possible that Jesus suffered all sins, pains and sicknesses... But just everything one person could be afflicted by, rather than the combined suffering of every such person, thoughstill  as a proxy for everyone? Like, a whipping boy receive one beating by proxy for all 3 misbehaving rich kids, rather than 3 beatings. To me, it's no less grand, especially since he did nothing wrong. You can tell me, though prefacing it with "no offence" it would help any hurt feelings, I can stand to be wrong.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I'm a bit of a minimalist, and I don't do metaphysics. It could be a grand cosmological mystery, but I just think there no need to over complicate things. Is it not possible that Jesus suffered all sins, pains and sicknesses... The worst of what just one person could be afflicted, rather than the combined weight of every person's sins, though he did suffer as a proxy for all? To me, it's no less grand, especially since he did nothing wrong. You can tell me, though prefacing it with "no offence" it would help any hurt feelings, I can stand to be wrong.

 

No offense, but his is why I often think of His Atonement in terms of a "work theory" where from the moment His Atonement was first established before the foundations of the world and the final disposition of the last soul, He covered all aspects of doing everything for everyone that anyone could not do for themselves, and also providing the grace necessary for us all to become one with the Father with Him (He being more intelligent than us all from before the foundations of the world). This grace, I believe, came with a grand price of work, part of which entailed His suffering in the garden and on the cross, where heaven and earth were reconciled in His mortality, or His mortal flesh (water, blood and Spirit per Moses 6:59-63). Someone somewhere has to realize or literalize the intent, the symbols and the record, make them as real for us as they are to God.

[theplains]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

During your ponderings, did you ever factor in to your thoughts the following verses of scripture that clearly indicate when God casts the sons of perdition into hell it’s actually an act of mercy?

3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be HAPPY to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be MORE MISERABLE to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell? (Mormon 9)

Your reference is also applicable to all who fail to live with Heavenly Father in his kingdom; because they did not endure
to the end. 

This privilege, if one believes D&C 76, is only reserved for exalted beings - "They are they who are priests and kings, who
have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was
after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods,
even the sons of God ... They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and
know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, and in might,
and in dominion".

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

b. He suffers eternally as Justice is unrelenting and mankind contiue to be born, sin, die, etc.

Jesus said, “Jesus saith unto them, ‘My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.’”

”But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

“I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.”

”I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.”

“I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.”

“It is finished.”

 

On the other hand, He also said, “These are they who are thrust down to hell.
These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.”

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I'm a bit of a minimalist, and I don't do metaphysics. It could be a grand cosmological mystery, but I just think there no need to over complicate things. Is it not possible that Jesus suffered all sins, pains and sicknesses... But just everything one person could be afflicted by, rather than the combined suffering of every such person, thoughstill  as a proxy for everyone? Like, a whipping boy receive one beating by proxy for all 3 misbehaving rich kids, rather than 3 beatings. To me, it's no less grand, especially since he did nothing wrong. You can tell me, though prefacing it with "no offence" it would help any hurt feelings, I can stand to be wrong.

 

Just in case, no offense meant...

I understand minimalism in this matter. In fact, it seems very much a straightforward thing, though a complete understanding will escape us, especially in this life, it is certain that we will understand it fully after our resurrection. The following is longer than I intended, but I found I could not shorten it and still say what I meant. At the end I give a couple of links to a more nuanced and complete treatment.

According to what we read in D&C 19 about the subject, those of us who do not accept Jesus as our Savior, and keep His commandments (specifically to have faith in Him, repent of our sins, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost) will be subject to the full requirements of Justice, in that we will be required to suffer for our disobedience in the same manner and to the same extent that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered: 

“For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—" (DC 19:15 - 17)

Note that this suffering's extent is "even as I". Or in other words, nothing more nor less than the Lord suffered. There was no additive suffering, in that Christ suffered more than anyone else because His suffering was added upon according to how many sinners there ever were. That's not at all necessary, because though He didn't deserve the suffering, He took it upon Himself willingly and out of love for us all. That is what made his atonement an infinite Atonement.

As indicated, the unrepentant soul will have to atone for his or her own sins by suffering what Christ suffered. When does that suffering occur? In my opinion, after the resurrection, of course. The reason that this would have to be post-resurrection is simply because a strictly mortal body cannot bear this suffering and remain alive -- it is so severe that the suffering would not be complete before death intervened. So only an immortal body can endure it. Christ inherited from His Father the ability to postpone death indefinitely, and thus He could endure to the end, until it was finished. But a mortal body cannot endure it.

How does the Atonement work? Willingly taking upon Himself that undeserved punishment gave Him power and authority to grant forgiveness upon all whom He chooses to grant it to. And as I said above He grants this grace to all those who obey Him in all things. This obedience does not save us, however. They are only tokens that He requires of us as a condition of receiving His grace, or mercy. Some Christians have taken this free gift to mean that nothing is required of us but to "accept" Him as our Savior -- but this is contrary to what the Lord Himself said in the scriptures. We do not earn salvation -- it cannot be earned. Without Christ's sacrifice, we can repent all the live-long day, do all the good that we can for forever and a day, and it will never be enough, not even to make a start. But He requires of us that we do as He commands as a condition of receiving this free grant of His grace.

Note that all the above describes receiving salvation from sin for those who repent, and for those who do not repent, it describes how they are subject to the requirements of Justice, and the extent of what they must suffer.

But Exaltation is another subject entirely.

In the interest of keeping it short, the preceding does not provide much in the way of scripture references. If you wish a more referenced treatment, try these: 

• The Mathematics of the Atonement of Jesus Christ
• The Roles of Justice, Sacrifice and Mercy in the Atonement of Christ

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And not to try to claim authority for my own ideas.

It is a good example that general authorities don’t see themselves as authorities on everything doctrine related.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

To me, it's no less grand, especially since he did nothing wrong. You can tell me, though prefacing it with "no offence" it would help any hurt feelings, I can stand to be wrong.

If the point is more he has the ability to understand each of us no matter how we have sinned and/or suffered and thus can help us get pass the obstacles to our salvation, your position makes more sense to me.

If the point is he needs to satisfy justice, then suffering for each and every sin seems to be required.

But I personally find that version of justice (someone must pay for it for the universe to be satisfied) as unlikely.  I find the first case to be more likely, but I suspect there is something else we are not aware of going on.

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is a good example that general authorities don’t see themselves as authorities on everything doctrine related.

Back in the olden days, before the MTC, full-time missionaries first entered the SLC Missionary Home for a week or so, before being sent to our destination missions (or the Language Training Mission for those heading to non-English-speaking missions). One of the things we experienced was to visit the Salt Lake Temple solemn assembly room, where a general authority would address us. My group got Elder Harold B. Lee (before he became President of the Church). Elder Lee gave a talk, and at the end he conducted a Q&A. Before he started answering questions, he told us that he was mainly going to answer the questions by referring to the scriptures, rather than risking us afterwards saying "According to Elder Lee..." when referring to what he said. I've never forgotten that! In my youth and ignorance I was mightily impressed by this -- especially since he didn't fumble about trying to find what he was looking for. He just knew where it all was. You don't get that by casual scripture reading.

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

If the point is more he has the ability to understand each of us no matter how we have sinned and/or suffered and thus can help us get pass the obstacles to our salvation, your position makes more sense to me.

I know you're not saying this, but I've heard many people say that Christ understands us because he's experienced everything anyone has ever experienced, so he understands us completely. Except that he categorically did not experience everything anyone has ever experienced. Some died by drowning. Did Jesus ever drown? Some have been burned alive. Did Jesus ever burn? It is simply not possible that every experience ever experienced by every child of God was also experienced by him. Nevertheless, he was here for a time, and experienced mortal life as we all did. It is because he, as the great Jehovah who created the world by the Father's direction, and that he has seen all of us deeply as we have experienced all that we have experienced. He need not have had these experiences personally in order to understand them and us. 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

If the point is he needs to satisfy justice, then suffering for each and every sin seems to be required.

And yet it is required that there be an infinite sacrifice (Alma 34:10). Adding up each and every sin comes to a very high number, but as you know, infinity cannot be reached. Not even by God. So, an additive process does not suffice.

11 hours ago, Calm said:

But I personally find that version of justice (someone must pay for it for the universe to be satisfied) as unlikely.  I find the first case to be more likely, but I suspect there is something else we are not aware of going on.

Why do you find it unlikely?

Edited April 20, 2023 by Stargazer

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Except that he categorically did not experience everything anyone has ever experienced.

Of course, but perhaps he has the capacity to bond completely with us even if we can’t bind completely with him and thus he was able to trigger the same experience even without going through it. In essence, he has perfect empathy. He may not have drowned himself, but he experienced it as we experienced it because of  his perfect link, his perfect awareness of us. My body can experience pain even when there is no external cause for it because my cells respond as if there is.  If he had perfect control over his body and a perfect awareness of us and our experiences, what would stop him from creating the sensations of drowning to experience for himself. Of course with that perfect awareness, maybe his own experience of the same would have been unnecessary. 

An infinite sacrifice speaks to it not being about justice imo since as you point out, if you add up all the sins ever committed it will never be truly infinite. Therefore Christ will have sacrificed more than was needed and the scales of justice are imbalanced. 

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Why do you find it unlikely?

I don’t think the universe if it was so aware as to need justice, would be so petty as to allow someone who was not responsible for the sin to suffer.  If there are humans that are capable of forgiveness and not wanting even criminals who have harmed them deeply to suffer, why wouldn’t any eternal intelligence be as capable?

[teddyaware]

21 hours ago, theplains said:

Your reference is also applicable to all who fail to live with Heavenly Father in his kingdom; because they did not endure
to the end. 

This privilege, if one believes D&C 76, is only reserved for exalted beings - "They are they who are priests and kings, who
have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was
after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods,
even the sons of God ... They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and
know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, and in might,
and in dominion".

In LDS soteriology, all who obtain an inheritance in one of the three post-resurrection kingdoms of heavenly glory will have a living, ongoing relationship with God the Father. Even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom actively worship God the Father and remain in constant communication with him through the mercy of Jesus Christ, and by means of the revelatory mediation of the Holy Ghost, in much the same manner Christians enjoy communion with God the Father here in mortality.

But the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are given the additional benefit of receiving regular visitations from ministering angels, who are sent to them from the celestial kingdom, and also by empowered messengers from the terrestrial kingdom. These two classes of ministers keep the inheritors of the telestial kingdom in regular communication with God the Father by imparting unto them his his word through the power of the Holy Ghost, while they are also able to remain in direct contact with the God the Father through the means of sincere, Spirit inspired prayer.

This is the God of true mercy. Why anyone would want to abandon this God of true divine love and empathy for a God who indifferently sends the majority of the human race to the unspeakable horrors of and endless hell is beyond me. But despite all of the aforesaid, it must be understood that there are indeed some members of the human family who will remain in hell (the sons of perdition) due to their utter refusal the accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and their fixed determination to not repent of their sins, thus becoming implacable, unrelenting enemies to God and Jesus Christ. And this steadfast rejection of God will be their choice despite every diligent, heartfelt attempt by compassionate messengers sent from God to reclaim them, remaining fixed in their total rebellion right up to the moment of the final judgement. Because the most sacred right of freedom to choose is of such paramount importance to God, he cannot be remain just and force a man into heaven.

Edited April 20, 2023 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I find the first case to be more likely, but I suspect there is something else we are not aware of going on.

I have never seen this as a bill to be paid- it makes no sense at all to me.

Who's the accountant who added it all up?  What if it was miscalculated and I still owe 35 cents worth of pain?

I think the savior is able to give us comfort by our knowing that there is no trial, pain,  he has not vicariously been through, and overcome through his atonement, and we can do likewise.

He is our exemplar on overcoming the world, he's been there and done that, and because he was resurrected, we can be as well.

That is the pragmatic FUNCTION of the belief the scriptures teach.  We are NEVER alone, he is with us in every trial and pain, and because of that belief, we shall overcome!

We need to understand the power of belief in our lives. What we believe is literally all we have, even in science.

It's not that we know what is true, it is that our beliefs create our personal images of the world, and so we act in accordance with those beliefs, and the beliefs themselves MAKE themselves true because they actually work. The Placebo effect is a scientific fact- with enough faith in belief,we can move mountains.

Even if it takes a few bulldozers

 

 

[JAHS]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Back in the olden days, before the MTC, full-time missionaries first entered the SLC Missionary Home for a week or so, before being sent to our destination missions (or the Language Training Mission for those heading to non-English-speaking missions). One of the things we experienced was to visit the Salt Lake Temple solemn assembly room, where a general authority would address us. My group got Elder Harold B. Lee (before he became President of the Church). Elder Lee gave a talk, and at the end he conducted a Q&A. Before he started answering questions, he told us that he was mainly going to answer the questions by referring to the scriptures, rather than risking us afterwards saying "According to Elder Lee..." when referring to what he said. I've never forgotten that! In my youth and ignorance I was mightily impressed by this -- especially since he didn't fumble about trying to find what he was looking for. He just knew where it all was. You don't get that by casual scripture reading.

I remember that too. I may have been in the same meeting as you. January 1972.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Of course, but perhaps he has the capacity to bond completely with us even if we can’t bind completely with him and thus he was able to trigger the same experience even without going through it. In essence, he has perfect empathy. He may not have drowned himself, but he experienced it as we experienced it because of  his perfect link, his perfect awareness of us. My body can experience pain even when there is no external cause for it because my cells respond as if there is.  If he had perfect control over his body and a perfect awareness of us and our experiences, what would stop him from creating the sensations of drowning to experience for himself. Of course with that perfect awareness, maybe his own experience of the same would have been unnecessary. 

An infinite sacrifice speaks to it not being about justice imo since as you point out, if you add up all the sins ever committed it will never be truly infinite. Therefore Christ will have sacrificed more than was needed and the scales of justice are imbalanced. 

I don’t think the universe if it was so aware as to need justice, would be so petty as to allow someone who was not responsible for the sin to suffer.  If there are humans that are capable of forgiveness and not wanting even criminals who have harmed them deeply to suffer, why wouldn’t any eternal intelligence be as capable?

I think the scriptures use the term “infinite” in a particular way. It is found a few times in the OT and in the Book of Mormon; only once in the D&C; and not at all in the NT or Pearl of Great Price. Only in the Book of Mormon is it used in connection with the Lord’s atonement (Alma 34, 2 Nephi 9, 2 Nephi 25).

These passages indicate that infinite is used to qualify:

- the sacrifice of God and not man, whose attributes are often described as “great,” “infinite” and “eternal” (Alma 34:10);

- the only sacrifice sufficient for the sins of the world (34:12; so many cannot be counted for the divers ways and means the may be committed – Mosiah 4: 29);

- a “great and last” sacrifice (a term used four times between verses 10 and 14) – as opposed to Adam’s earliest, symbolic sacrifice (and perhaps his own personal sacrifice in the form of his death from Eden and in the fallen world).

- the endless duration of the mortal death (which entails spiritual death as well) which this atonement overcomes (2 Nephi 9: 7 and 10);

- that none of God’s children in any combination, but only Christ alone, is more powerful than the devil (9: 8-9).

- that it is infinite for all mankind, an interesting qualification of a qualification, perhaps limiting the scope from what we are used to thinking in terms of “infinite,” but is not necessarily “never truly infinite” (2 Nephi 25: 16). I think this is what was “needed.” But it does seem that what was needed is more than all the sins God’s children might commit and the suffering they might encounter in mortality, but also additionally suffered and overcame all that which the “devil and his angels” could do (2 Nephi 7: 16, 19, 26 and 46), and who would prevail over all mankind without His Intercession.  

I think the Lord is infinite but also occupies the full stature of a physical and recognizably human body.

[Stargazer]

On 4/20/2023 at 1:10 PM, Calm said:

Of course, but perhaps he has the capacity to bond completely with us even if we can’t bind completely with him and thus he was able to trigger the same experience even without going through it. In essence, he has perfect empathy. He may not have drowned himself, but he experienced it as we experienced it because of  his perfect link, his perfect awareness of us. My body can experience pain even when there is no external cause for it because my cells respond as if there is.  If he had perfect control over his body and a perfect awareness of us and our experiences, what would stop him from creating the sensations of drowning to experience for himself. Of course with that perfect awareness, maybe his own experience of the same would have been unnecessary. 

Christ has the advantage in understanding us because as the Firstborn, a member of the godhead, He understands us perfectly by way of (1) having experienced mortality Himself, and (2) having the ability to comprehend everything each and every one of us has experienced in full depth, including in ways that we ourselves cannot see. 

As I have gotten older, I am more able to understand others' pain, having experienced some myself. I wince when I see someone fall and hurt themselves, because despite not feeling it directly, I empathize with them. I even feel a degree of sympathetic pain. So I can understand, in a very tiny measure, what pain Christ feels as He watches us all flop around like foolish fish, sometimes doing the right thing, and too often not doing it. Keep in mind that physical pain is nothing, and that when we leave our bodies and go back to spirit unbound by flesh, suddenly all those meatware maladies will be gone. 

On 4/20/2023 at 1:10 PM, Calm said:

An infinite sacrifice speaks to it not being about justice imo since as you point out, if you add up all the sins ever committed it will never be truly infinite. Therefore Christ will have sacrificed more than was needed and the scales of justice are imbalanced. 

I suggested this in an earlier post, but I'm going to formally invite you to read something I wrote, about how I understand the infinite atonement. The Mathematics of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

You may feel free to comment upon it if you wish.

On 4/20/2023 at 1:10 PM, Calm said:

I don’t think the universe if it was so aware as to need justice, would be so petty as to allow someone who was not responsible for the sin to suffer.  If there are humans that are capable of forgiveness and not wanting even criminals who have harmed them deeply to suffer, why wouldn’t any eternal intelligence be as capable?

It's not a matter of pettiness. It's a matter of Justice. But as to "allowing", how could any intelligence who is beholden to God's beloved Son, not allow Him to do anything righteous which He chose to do of His own accord? And if that voluntary righteous thing is to suffer so that repentant souls not only need not suffer, but become eligible for exaltation, how could they do anything but cheer Him on? Especially since perhaps one day they themselves may be saved and possibly exalted by that sacrifice?

This subject is deep. To understand it even vaguely requires that one shed a fair amount of presupposition and ignorance. Fortunately, we are not required to understand it fully in order to take advantage of it. For us, it is as simple as a light switch that illuminates a dark room. We need not understand the principles of electricity in order to have the light. And the Atonement of Jesus Christ is for us like that light switch. 

[Nofear]

I view the conundrum in a somewhat different manner such that, for me, there is no conundrum.

A civil/social law without some punishment isn't really a law. It's moot and pointless. God is anything but moot and pointless and thus his laws are anything but moot and pointless. Therefore there must be a consequence attached. The Atonement is about satisfying the Law but not about taking the punishment/consequence. Amulek points out that it is not just for another to suffer for the sins of another (using the example of murder, Alma 34:11).  He follows that up by saying "nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world." What are we to understand by an infinite atonement? For me, going off of Paul and others, the point of the Atonement is to transform the individual into a new creature so that the law is no longer relevant to the person. Suppose Bob commits adultery, then, he repents and is transformed by the Atonement. The new Bob is not the "same person" who committed adultery and is no longer an individual who would commit should a crime (even in theory, it must be a complete transformation else the sin remains). There would be no point/purpose/justice in punishing him for adultery. The law no longer applies to him.

How does the Atonement do this? We don't know. The technology of the Atonement is far beyond our ability to describe and hence words like "infinite" are used. What we see from the scriptures is that Christ had to experience the sin and the suffering of such and overcome it. He did this not just for sin for all pain/hurt/failings/shortcomings/transgessions. And having overcome the power of the Atonement can then be applied to each of us (through the Holy Ghost) to help and/or allow us to overcome the same sins/pain/hurt/failings/shortcomings/transgressions.