The Savior's Suffering in Gethsemane / Is Justice just a big jerk?

[Nofear]

Just for fun, ChatGPT's response. It basically asserts the substitution theory of the Atonement.

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Prompt: "Explain how the atonement of Jesus Christ satisfies the demands of justice and also grands mercy. " (curiously/nicely it ignored my typo).

According to Christian theology, the atonement of Jesus Christ refers to the sacrifice he made on the cross to pay for the sins of humanity. The concept of atonement involves reconciling humanity with God, who is just and righteous, and who demands punishment for sin. The atonement of Christ is seen as satisfying the demands of justice and granting mercy in several ways.

Firstly, the atonement satisfies the demands of justice by offering a substitute for the punishment that humanity deserves for their sins. In Christian theology, all humans are born with a sin nature and are separated from God because of their sin. The punishment for sin is death, which is both physical and spiritual separation from God. However, Jesus, who was without sin, offered himself as a sacrifice for humanity's sins, taking upon himself the punishment that humanity deserved. This act of substitution satisfied the demands of justice by providing a just punishment for sin.

Secondly, the atonement grants mercy by providing a way for humans to be reconciled with God. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, humans can be forgiven of their sins and restored to a right relationship with God. This is an act of mercy because it is a gift that humans do not deserve. Rather than punishing humanity for their sins, God offers them forgiveness and reconciliation through the atonement of Christ.

Finally, the atonement satisfies the demands of justice and grants mercy by demonstrating God's love for humanity. In Christian theology, God is a just and righteous God who cannot tolerate sin, but he is also a loving and merciful God who desires a relationship with humanity. Through the atonement of Christ, God demonstrates both his justice and his mercy. He punishes sin justly, but also offers forgiveness and restoration mercifully, showing his love for humanity.

In summary, the atonement of Jesus Christ satisfies the demands of justice by providing a substitute for the punishment that humanity deserves for their sins. At the same time, it grants mercy by providing a way for humans to be reconciled with God and demonstrating God's love for humanity.

 

I next prompt it to have a more uniquely LDS perspective. It was a bit more vague which I suppose is fair enough since various explanations are given.

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Prompt: Explain from an LDS perspective how the Atonement satisfies both the demands of justice and grants mercy.

In the Latter-Day Saint (LDS) perspective, the Atonement of Jesus Christ is central to the plan of salvation, which encompasses God's purpose for His children to become like Him and return to live with Him after this life. The Atonement of Jesus Christ satisfies both the demands of justice and grants mercy in the following ways:

Firstly, the Atonement satisfies the demands of justice by providing a way for the consequences of sin to be justly paid. The law of justice requires that there be a consequence for every action, and since all humans have sinned, they are subject to the penalty of spiritual death, which is separation from God. However, because of His infinite love, God provided a Savior who could pay the price for our sins, satisfying the demands of justice while also providing a way for us to be forgiven and reconciled with God.

Secondly, the Atonement grants mercy by offering forgiveness to those who repent and come unto Christ. Mercy is an essential aspect of the Atonement because, without it, no one could be saved. Through Christ's sacrifice, all people have the opportunity to repent of their sins and be forgiven. This forgiveness is an act of mercy, which is not given because people deserve it, but because of Christ's grace and love.

Thirdly, the Atonement satisfies the demands of justice and grants mercy by making it possible for all people to overcome death and obtain eternal life. The resurrection is an essential part of the Atonement, which makes it possible for all people to overcome physical death. Without the Atonement, there would be no hope for eternal life. However, because of Christ's sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and have the opportunity to live with God forever.

In summary, the Atonement of Jesus Christ satisfies the demands of justice by providing a way for the consequences of sin to be justly paid while also granting mercy by offering forgiveness to those who repent and come unto Christ. The Atonement also makes it possible for all people to overcome death and obtain eternal life, demonstrating God's love and mercy towards His children.

 

[theplains]

On 4/20/2023 at 1:27 PM, teddyaware said:

This is the God of true mercy. Why anyone would want to abandon this God of true divine love and empathy for a God who indifferently sends the majority of the human race to the unspeakable horrors of and endless hell is beyond me. But despite all of the aforesaid, it must be understood that there are indeed some members of the human family who will remain in hell (the sons of perdition) due to their utter refusal the accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and their fixed determination to not repent of their sins,

The Plan of Salvation defines the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants as those who did not repent
of their sins or rejected the gospel (did not accept Christ as Savior).

According the Joseph Smith, their eternity will not be pleasant.

“God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of 
hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His 
commands. . . . I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which 
He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord.”

“The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, 
is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have 
enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers.” 

“There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their 
doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the 
lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment
in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is 
the torment of man. . . . 

“. . . Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting 
burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite 
a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.”

This symbolism is also found in his other revelations.

“And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my
left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father. Wherefore I will say unto them – Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (D&C
29:27-28).

“Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the
tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned
with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man
according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made
strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire” (D&C 101:65-66).

Before Joseph F. Smith decided to validate D&C 138, he should have considered Alma 34:32-35
and 40:11-14,26

D&C 138;20-22, 36-37 gives some more descriptions of the wicked awaiting judgment.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by theplains

[halconero]

On 4/19/2023 at 7:59 PM, Stargazer said:

"I believe there are many different, yet correct, ways to look at and think about the Atonement. Whenever I read any explanation of the Atonement, I am inclined to think of it as one more way of looking at and illuminating the Lord’s infinite and eternal sacrifice, which is like a jewel too vast for us to comprehend fully. Hence, each explanation looks at it from a different angle, and each has merit. I never feel that one is necessarily the best or final explanation."

I like this a lot.

I recently began a new study of the Book of Mormon, in which I am striving to discover the personal atonement theory of each individual prophet therein. I try to put mental blinders on myself for each prophet, asking myself how they would understand sin, repentance, forgiveness, and atonement were they the only authority on the matter. I am struck by how different each prophet is, to the extent that last week in Elders Quorum, when someone said "the Book of Mormon teaches us the atonement is about meeting the competing demands of justice and mercy," I thought to myself, "no, that is what Alma teaches us about the atonement, not the rest of the prophets." Could it be that this prophet, with a unique repentance experience, who was also a former judge, who supervised legal cases, might have a unique perspective on the matter?

By contrast, look at King Benjamin, whose theory of the atonement might well be titled "The Servant-King." The King, "chosen by [his] people, "consecrated by [his] father," was "suffered by the hand of the Lord that [he] should be a ruler and a king over this people." The Servant-King, "subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind," "suffered to spend [his] days in your service," whose gift could not be bought with "gold nor silver nor any manner of riches."

And why?

That his people might not be "confined in dungeons," or "commit any wickedness," that they "should not be laden...that there should nothing come upon [them] which was grievous to be borne."

And lest we think this is Benjamin speaking purely of himself, he is absolutely clear that he is using his experience to illustrate the role of what he calls "the Heavenly King," who just requires us to serve one another, even if that is not enough, even as he graciously sustains and blesses us in far greater abundance as befit his kingly role. A role for which he was consecrated by his Father, sustained and chosen by his people who take his name, and fulfilled in his suffering infirmity in body and mind.

Don't get me started on Nephi, for whom the natural consequence of sin is a literal and spiritual scattering, becoming lost across darkness and geography, and form whom the Atonement is the means and the vehicle whereby Israel is gathered and grafted. Is it any wonder why he might have such a theory of the atonement given his life experiences?

Edited April 26, 2023 by halconero

[Calm]

2 hours ago, halconero said:

I like this a lot.

I recently began a new study of the Book of Mormon, in which I am striving to discover the personal atonement theory of each individual prophet therein. I try to put mental blinders on myself for each prophet, asking myself how they would understand sin, repentance, forgiveness, and atonement were they the only authority on the matter. I am struck by how different each prophet is, to the extent that last week in Elders Quorum, when someone said "the Book of Mormon teaches us the atonement is about meeting the competing demands of justice and mercy," I thought to myself, "no, that is what Alma teaches us about the atonement, not the rest of the prophets." Could it be that this prophet, with a unique repentance experience, who was also a former judge, who supervised legal cases, might have a unique perspective on the matter?

By contrast, look at King Benjamin, whose theory of the atonement might well be titled "The Servant-King." The King, "chosen by [his] people, "consecrated by [his] father," was "suffered by the hand of the Lord that [he] should be a ruler and a king over this people. The Servant-King, "subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind," "suffered to spend [his] days in your service," whose gift could not be bought with "gold nor silver nor any manner of riches."

And why?

That his people might not be "confined in dungeons," "commit any wickedness," that they "should not be laden...that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne."

And lest we think this is Benjamin speaking purely of himself, he is absolutely clear that he is using his experience to illustrate the role of what he calls "the Heavenly King," who just requires us to serve one another, even if that is not enough, even as he graciously sustains and blesses us in far greater abundance as befit his kingly role, consecrated and given to him by his Father, sustained and chosen by his people who take his name, and fulfilled in his suffering infirmity in body and mind.

Don't get me started on Nephi, for whom the natural consequence of sin is a literal and spiritual scattering, becoming lost across darkness and geography, and form whom the Atonement is the means and the vehicle whereby Israel is gathered and grafted. Is it any wonder why he might have such a theory of the atonement given his life experiences?

Wonderful. You should publish your work on this somewhere. 

[Calm]

On 4/19/2023 at 5:39 PM, Stargazer said:

As indicated, the unrepentant soul will have to atone for his or her own sins by suffering what Christ suffered. When does that suffering occur? In my opinion, after the resurrection, of course.

But are we not taught the suffering occurs while we are in Spirt Prison and our judgment occurs before our resurrection?  At that time we are assigned to a kingdom of God’s glory, which means we are purged one way or the other of any unclean thing and that we have accepted Christ as Lord even if the Oneness we receive through his Atonement is rejected completely (Telestial)?

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng&v=Control

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Alma taught that when we die our spirits are assigned to a state of happiness or of misery[***] (see Alma 40:11–15). This is a judgment.

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At the Final Judgment we will inherit a place in the kingdom for which we are prepared. The scriptures teach of three kingdoms of glory—the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom (see D&C 88:20–32).

 

***https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng&v=Control

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Heavenly Father prepared a plan for our salvation. As part of this plan, He sent us from His presence to live on earth and receive mortal bodies of flesh and blood. Eventually our mortal bodies will die, and our spirits will go to the spirit world. The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning, and, for the righteous, resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we are ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once more unite with our spirits, and we will receive the degree of glory we have prepared for (see chapter 46 in this book).

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Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

Given our perception of pain is a mental experience, an interpretation of sensory information our minds receive, perhaps our minds having once experienced the physical nature of pain will understand it well enough to be able to fully suffer for our sins without a physical body to do so.

After all, if our minds and spirits consist of refined material, we have a material body even if we lack the type of material that we label physical.  

Or perhaps the suffering that occurs prejudgment is spiritual in nature and not physical since the purpose of that suffering is to purge the spirit of impurity.  Christ bled from every pore in Gethsemane because his body was reacting to his experience of this kind of suffering it seems to me (the suffering that ended in the Crucifixion was also very physical) as he wasn’t being tormented physically at that time, so the ‘bleeding’ itself need not have been part of the suffering, just a reflection of it, just as we might unknowingly physically blush when we experience embarrassment.  His internal state triggered the external reaction of bleeding from his pores and physical weakness instead of his external state triggering the internal one as would happen later when he was whipped and otherwise tortured in addition to the internal experience of the hate of and rejection by his persecutors. 

 

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President John Taylor taught this truth: “[The individual] tells the story himself, and bears witness against himself. … That record that is written by the man himself in the tablets of his own mind, that record that cannot lie will in that day be unfolded before God and angels, and those who shall sit as judges” (Deseret News,Mar. 8, 1865, 179).

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The Lord said: “Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned” (Matthew 12:36–37).

Our “words” are not physical.  Perhaps the above points to that aspect of judgment, that it is our internal, nonphysical nature that is judged, our internal “works”, our desires and thoughts rather than our external works, what we actually did because our external works were limited by our and our environment’s physical capabilities …someone in prison may desire to kill another but be incapable of doing so, for example. God is capable of knowing fully that desire to harm, so it is righteous and just for him to judge that desire as if the harm took place, to judge us on what we wanted and want to do at the time of judgment rather than just what we did, for both good and ill.

It also appears to me one is physically resurrected through Christ’s efforts, not their own.  The physical resurrection is a gift from God that all receive whether they repented (accepted God’s Grace) or not. That suggests to me the purification of our physical nature may be able to be achieved by Christ without our involvement beyond our acceptance of his gift in the past when we accepted the Plan of Salvation, while we must exert control over our spiritual/mental (and therefore material) body while in paradise or spirit prison as part of our acceptance of the Atonement through our repentance. We change our spiritual nature either with (through repentance and acceptance** ) or without (through suffering after rejecting*) God’s help (though of course God is helping all by providing all the opportunity to be purified) to a state of purity that can endure God’s glory, even if that change is limited to a minimum of purification if done through our own suffering.  Additional changes of sanctification (becoming holy as God is) that allow us access to greater levels of God’s glory (terrestrial and celestial) can only occur through God. 

**

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“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.”

And

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These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

Or 

*

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These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. 

 

[Stargazer]

On 4/26/2023 at 3:53 PM, Calm said:

As indicated, the unrepentant soul will have to atone for his or her own sins by suffering what Christ suffered. When does that suffering occur? In my opinion, after the resurrection, of course.

 

On 4/26/2023 at 3:53 PM, Calm said:

But are we not taught the suffering occurs while we are in Spirt Prison and our judgment occurs before our resurrection?  At that time we are assigned to a kingdom of God’s glory, which means we are purged one way or the other of any unclean thing and that we have accepted Christ as Lord even if the Oneness we receive through his Atonement is rejected completely (Telestial)?

In the above, I gave what I said as "my opinion." But I believe it is more than just my opinion.

Church instructional materials are wonderful, and can be very inspiring and informative, but they are written by fallible men and women. They are not scripture, and occasionally express things generally and without precision. This is the case in this instance. Let me explain.

The only occurrence of the word "suffer" occurs here:

"Telestial: These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected."

Of course, it is correct that those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom are those who reject the Gospel of Christ. So they must suffer for their own sins. And they are resurrected last of all.

However, whatever "suffering" they have in the Spirit World is not the "real" suffering. I won't presume to know whether they will be aware of their ultimate fate during the Millennium, but they may. And surely they will have the opportunity to repent up until the Millennium ends. But if one were to assume that the point arrives when they know their fate, they may be looking forward to that fate with dread, which is a form of suffering. 

But we are clearly told what the nature of the "real" suffering is, in D&C 19:15-18:

"Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I — Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"

The key is found here: "they must suffer even as I". Or, in other words, they suffer exactly as much as Christ suffered, and in the same manner. Including trembling due to pain, bleeding at every pore, and suffering in both body and spirit. As He says, "exquisite" suffering.

The only way that a being can suffer as Christ did, is to have a body and be unable to die -- because the suffering is so severe that a mortal being would be physically unable to endure it, and would die before completing it. And thus escape it. But since escape cannot be possible, this means that a being who must suffer as Christ did must first be resurrected before experiencing the suffering. And suffering only in the spirit is not how Christ experienced it.

So, in actuality and according to the scriptures, one is first judged, then resurrected in the form of immortal body one is to receive, and then suffers as Christ suffered. After this, one enters the kingdom one has inherited.

While studying today, I ran into a new insight today along the lines of this subject. Paul said, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22) But is there only one type of resurrection? Paul raises the question in the same chapter: "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" (1 Cor 15:35) He then indicates there are three forms of resurrection. He calls one "celestial", one "terrestrial," but doesn't name the third, instead comparing it to the stars (see 1 Cor 15:40-41). I don't know what distinguishes them from each other, but perhaps having had to go through the suffering of the atonement marks the resurrected body of those inheriting the Telestial Kingdom in some fashion that distinguishes them from those inheriting the other kingdoms. That's just my opinion, of course.

[Stargazer]

On 4/26/2023 at 3:53 PM, Calm said:

Given our perception of pain is a mental experience, an interpretation of sensory information our minds receive, perhaps our minds having once experienced the physical nature of pain will understand it well enough to be able to fully suffer for our sins without a physical body to do so.

After all, if our minds and spirits consist of refined material, we have a material body even if we lack the type of material that we label physical.  

Or perhaps the suffering that occurs prejudgment is spiritual in nature and not physical since the purpose of that suffering is to purge the spirit of impurity.  Christ bled from every pore in Gethsemane because his body was reacting to his experience of this kind of suffering it seems to me (the suffering that ended in the Crucifixion was also very physical) as he wasn’t being tormented physically at that time, so the ‘bleeding’ itself need not have been part of the suffering, just a reflection of it, just as we might unknowingly physically blush when we experience embarrassment.  His internal state triggered the external reaction of bleeding from his pores and physical weakness instead of his external state triggering the internal one as would happen later when he was whipped and otherwise tortured in addition to the internal experience of the hate of and rejection by his persecutors. 

My understanding of the suffering of Atonement is that it is not strictly mortally physical -- Christ's experience of being flogged by a cat-o-nine-tails, being forced to carry his cross, and then being nailed to the cross, along with the erection of the cross and his hanging on it for several hours, was terrible to the extreme. But in comparison to the suffering which started in Gethsemane it was by comparison only a mosquito bite. And keep in mind that the Romans crucified LOTS of people. In my estimation, the cross wasn't even necessary, strictly speaking, for the Atonement to be efficacious. The "exquisite" suffering He describes in D&C 19 was all that was needed for that. And that's what those who refuse to repent can look forward to. But the crucifixion was necessary as a demonstration for all of us who only have mortal eyes, because that's all we can see.

On 4/26/2023 at 3:53 PM, Calm said:

Our “words” are not physical.  Perhaps the above points to that aspect of judgment, that it is our internal, nonphysical nature that is judged, our internal “works”, our desires and thoughts rather than our external works, what we actually did because our external works were limited by our and our environment’s physical capabilities …someone in prison may desire to kill another but be incapable of doing so, for example. God is capable of knowing fully that desire to harm, so it is righteous and just for him to judge that desire as if the harm took place, to judge us on what we wanted and want to do at the time of judgment rather than just what we did, for both good and ill.

It also appears to me one is physically resurrected through Christ’s efforts, not their own.  The physical resurrection is a gift from God that all receive whether they repented (accepted God’s Grace) or not. That suggests to me the purification of our physical nature may be able to be achieved by Christ without our involvement beyond our acceptance of his gift in the past when we accepted the Plan of Salvation, while we must exert control over our spiritual/mental (and therefore material) body while in paradise or spirit prison as part of our acceptance of the Atonement through our repentance. We change our spiritual nature either with (through repentance and acceptance** ) or without (through suffering after rejecting*) God’s help (though of course God is helping all by providing all the opportunity to be purified) to a state of purity that can endure God’s glory, even if that change is limited to a minimum of purification if done through our own suffering.  Additional changes of sanctification (becoming holy as God is) that allow us access to greater levels of God’s glory (terrestrial and celestial) can only occur through God. 

Yep.

You write "It also appears to me one is physically resurrected through Christ’s efforts, not their own.  The physical resurrection is a gift from God that all receive whether they repented (accepted God’s Grace) or not. That suggests to me the purification of our physical nature may be able to be achieved by Christ without our involvement beyond our acceptance of his gift in the past when we accepted the Plan of Salvation" 

This is absolutely correct. In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul wrote:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He wrote this because there were some who felt that they could achieve salvation by being "better" than others, as if their works would save them. There was a theory once advanced in apostate Christendom, that the "Saints" (meaning those who were proclaimed such) had done so much more good than was required for their own salvation, that that excess good was stored in some kind of "bank" which could be accessed and lent or given to others to assist them in gaining salvation, or at least, the lessening of the requirements of penance or punishment. Read about it in the Wikipedia article titled "Indulgences." 

Some non-LDS accuse of believing this doctrine. They point to us going to the Temple, keeping the Word of Wisdom, ministering, etc, as evidence that we think we can somehow "earn" salvation through our good works. And, to be fair, some Mormons (as distinguished from Latter-day Saints) do seem to believe this! The plain fact of the matter is this: salvation from sin comes through the merits of Christ, and in no other way. We ourselves merit nothing. This is the true meaning of that rather ambiguously worded bit in 2 Nephi 25:23:

"...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Some mistake this as meaning we get that grace as if we earned it by doing all we could. No. We must obey Christ, and repent when we have not, but as King Benjamin said, "if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." In other words, we must do all we can do, but it is not enough. Nothing saves us, but the Grace of Christ. Which He grants us if we have done all we could.

And of course, some of those who complain about our obedience go off the deep end and claim that we don't need to keep the commandments, because that's doing works (oh, the horror!) and all we need is a mouth declaration and acceptance of Christ. This is something that I've read in more than one "Christian" tract, and which is one of the most unscriptural ideas out there.

[Stargazer]

On 4/24/2023 at 7:53 PM, Nofear said:

Just for fun, ChatGPT's response. It basically asserts the substitution theory of the Atonement.

That was interesting!

Microsoft Bing has an AI question-answering feature, too, and I asked it "Does God exist?" I got a very well-thought-out answer, and a very liberal one. I was surprised. It's off-topic, so I won't post the response here, but I was actually impressed.

This AI stuff might have something going for it.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This AI stuff might have something going for it.

At least the opinions of the programmers.

[OGHoosier]

My interpretation of the Atonement, stunted though it may be, is that Christ experienced through some variety of perfect empathy the pains and sicknesses of all sentient creation so that He would have the moral authority to command, censure, punish, and forgive with justice. 

Christ knew that suffering was necessary to create the conditions for exaltation. There's no way around that. There would be suffering and profound injustice, injustice which He would leave uncorrected for a time in order to shape and teach His Father's children. It's easy to shake our fists at Him for what we experience down here, so He descended to experience it all too. Thus none of us can ever boast of a superior moral or epistemic position to Christ. He can give commands and judgements without being undercut by the accusation of just sitting on His throne the whole time. The Atonement is about cementing and amplifying Christ's power to rule, reign, and succor.

At least, I think it fills that function. Certainly there are other considerations.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

My interpretation of the Atonement, stunted though it may be, is that Christ experienced through some variety of perfect empathy the pains and sicknesses of all sentient creation so that He would have the moral authority to command, censure, punish, and forgive with justice. 

Christ knew that suffering was necessary to create the conditions for exaltation. There's no way around that. There would be suffering and profound injustice, injustice which He would leave uncorrected for a time in order to shape and teach His Father's children. It's easy to shake our fists at Him for what we experience down here, so He descended to experience it all too. Thus none of us can ever boast of a superior moral or epistemic position to Christ. He can give commands and judgements without being undercut by the accusation of just sitting on His throne the whole time. The Atonement is about cementing and amplifying Christ's power to rule, reign, and succor.

At least, I think it fills that function. Certainly there are other considerations.

Yes, the "sacrifice" was created by his empathy. He is always there for us to help us through the pain.  

[nuclearfuels]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:06 PM, JAHS said:

Because the Savior is Endless and Eternal, the terms “endless punishment” and “eternal punishment” refer to the source of punishment rather than the duration. (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual)

Nailed it