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The Seven Deadly Heresies

Rivers

By Rivers
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oremites Collaborator

oremites

Posted
Posted

As for his "seven deadly heresies"--if we weeded out all of the church members who subscribed to one or more of his heresies, either at the time of the speech or now, there wouldn't be many left in the church.

 

Except that he didn't advocate driving anyone out of the church that believed these "heresies." 

 

Here's a quote from the talk:

"These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields."

 

The whole talk is full of those admonitions to study it out for ourselves.  He never says anything like, "I'm an Apostle and you need to believe what I say or you're all heretics." 

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iamse7en Contributor

iamse7en

Posted
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Based on what he said of one of the heresies (only in the audio version, it was redacted from the print version), I don't deserve salvation. That said, I love what Ogden Kraut said about him; OK cried upon hearing of his death, lamenting that we won't see such a scriptorian in the Qo12 again. He said he would miss all the fun debate they had with each other. 3 of those heresies were believed and taught very openly by Brigham Young and other early leaders. That being said, I do love this talk and the Eugene England backstory. BRM was a cool dude.

Edited by iamse7en
mercyngrace Veteran

mercyngrace

Posted
Posted

http://mormonstories.org/james-mcconkie-family-faith-bruce-mcconkie-and-the-historical-christ/

 

James McConkie now works for CES, I guess, and for this reason (or so I assumed) I don't think he was as honest as he might have been about his uncle. He (James) was my bishop at the Univ Of Utah when I was a student there and from what he said to me then his attitude towards BRM has changed. But the podcast was nevertheless interesting. Among other things he says in it that the McConkies are known for three things: (1) being lawyers; (2) being strong in the church; and (3) being Democrats.

Thanks! This will give me something to listen to on my morning walk. 

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

Full Speech by Bruce R. McConkie in 1980: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658

 

Does anybody agree that all seven items on this list are heresies?

I dont believe in a lot of his talk on the heresies. I am of tje belief that baptism for the dead is a second chance opportunity otherwise why teach the spirits in prison the gospel? I also believe that all men have to become perfect (without sin) to gain salvation and be saved from hell.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
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from what he said to me then his attitude towards BRM has changed. 

People can change their attitudes towards relations as they age, I am much more appreciative of two of my uncles and less appreciative of one of them (due to me not being so focused on how he used to entertain us when we were kids and more on how he used family members and treated them as if they were only there to support him and his wisdom).

bdouglas Proficient

bdouglas

Posted
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People can change their attitudes towards relations as they age, I am much more appreciative of two of my uncles and less appreciative of one of them (due to me not being so focused on how he used to entertain us when we were kids and more on how he used family members and treated them as if they were only there to support him and his wisdom).

There is one thing about BRM that I really appreciate, and I wish I saw more of it about today, and that is that he did not care at all about PR, or political correctness. Even if you didn't like him you couldn't help but listen his talks. I started out as a young missionary really liking him, and then I went through a phase where I didn't like him and was bothered by all of the things he confidently declared this way or that, but as I get older I have learned to appreciate and like him. I guess I am becoming more charitable in the judgements I form about other people--probably for the simple reason that I know I am going to need a lot of charity myself, and so I'd better start doing a better job in extending it to others.

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Storm Rider Grand Master

Storm Rider

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Baptism for the dead does not change the heart of man; it fulfills the need of an ordinance only. If someone would have accepted the gospel had they heard it properly taught then the ordinance is effective. However, if they will, or would have rejected the gospel the ordinance is of no effect.

One may say it is a second chance, but only in the context of receiving a required ordinance.

I was not a fan of BRM during most of his life, but this man evolved into a true man of God and is worthy of a great deal of respect. He himself would reject some of his early statements or teachings as untrue. However, this specific teaching is as true yesterday as it is today.

  • 2 weeks later...
JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

Full Speech by Bruce R. McConkie in 1980: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658

 

Does anybody agree that all seven items on this list are heresies?

I agree with him on heresies 2 & 3.  The others I think he was off on.

SamIam Experienced

SamIam

Posted
Posted (edited)

I seem to recall a story of a church scholar who was kicked out of BYU and publically shamed by BRM for suggesting that God had a god above him which meant that God had less experience and knowledge of the God above him.

Without a citation, we can only guess that perhaps you are speaking of Eugene England as that was a point of contention between them.  However, I think that story was sensationalized beyond merit. 

 

Edit: Oh looky there someone else posted the entire letter.  It seems clear though that Brother England to his credit was careful to not malign Elder McConkie and continued to sustain him as an Apostle.

Edited by SamIam
rongo Grand Master

rongo

Posted
Posted

Without a citation, we can only guess that perhaps you are speaking of Eugene England as that was a point of contention between them.  However, I think that story was sensationalized beyond merit. 

 

Edit: Oh looky there someone else posted the entire letter.  It seems clear though that Brother England to his credit was careful to not malign Elder McConkie and continued to sustain him as an Apostle.

When I was a bishop, I worked with a brother who received formal Church discipline at BYU. I learned from the transcript of the disciplinary council  that his bishop was Eugene England, and a member of the stake presidency was Richard L. Anderson. There were other BYU notables on that high council (BYU student ward).

 

This occurred at around the time of the McConkie letter. I think, like samiam said, that England is a good example of handling "dressing downs" that are inappropriate or over the top. Like Pahoran with Moroni

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
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Can we add Adam is actually the Archangel Michael to the list? That is pure nonsense.

 

We don't have Archangels. But yes it is doctrine that Adam was the angel Michael in the premortal life. That with Jesus formed this world.

Damien the Leper Grand Master

Damien the Leper

Posted
Posted

We don't have Archangels. But yes it is doctrine that Adam was the angel Michael in the premortal life. That with Jesus formed this world.

 

That's unfortunate. Archangels are God's heavy duty soldiers. I also disagree with the Adam/Michael connection.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

When I was a bishop, I worked with a brother who received formal Church discipline at BYU. I learned from the transcript of the disciplinary council  that his bishop was Eugene England, and a member of the stake presidency was Richard L. Anderson. There were other BYU notables on that high council (BYU student ward).

 

This occurred at around the time of the McConkie letter. I think, like samiam said, that England is a good example of handling "dressing downs" that are inappropriate or over the top. Like Pahoran with Moroni

"Elder Pelatiah Brown, one of the wisest old heads we have among us, and whom I now see before me, has been preaching concerning the beast which was full of eyes before and behind; and for this he was hauled up for trial before the High Council.

I did not like the old man being called for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I WANT THE LIBERTY OF THINKING AND BELIEVING AS I PLEASE. IT FEELS GOOD NOT TO BE TRAMMELED. IT DOES NOT PROVE THAT A MAN IS NOT A GOOD MAN BECAUSE HE ERRS IN DOCTRINE." - History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 340

 

Should there even be heresies in the Church? - Joseph Smith didn't think so.

Rivers Grand Master

Rivers

Posted
  • Author
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"Elder Pelatiah Brown, one of the wisest old heads we have among us, and whom I now see before me, has been preaching concerning the beast which was full of eyes before and behind; and for this he was hauled up for trial before the High Council.

I did not like the old man being called for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I WANT THE LIBERTY OF THINKING AND BELIEVING AS I PLEASE. IT FEELS GOOD NOT TO BE TRAMMELED. IT DOES NOT PROVE THAT A MAN IS NOT A GOOD MAN BECAUSE HE ERRS IN DOCTRINE." - History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 340

 

Should there even be heresies in the Church? - Joseph Smith didn't think so.

What about the Temple Recommend questions?  Are they not similar to a creed?

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

That's unfortunate. Archangels are God's heavy duty soldiers. I also disagree with the Adam/Michael connection.

 

We are all or should be heavy duty foot soldiers in Gods army. I'm just saying that it is LDS doctrine.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

What about the Temple Recommend questions?  Are they not similar to a creed?

Worthiness questions and acceptance of Priesthood authority are not the same as personal doctrinal beliefs.  I don't think it's a doctrinal issue to be asked if you accept Jesus Christ in order to receive a recommend.  However, if you happen to believe in progression between kingdoms it shouldn't bar you from a recommend.

Buzzard Mentor

Buzzard

Posted
Posted (edited)

"Elder Pelatiah Brown, one of the wisest old heads we have among us, and whom I now see before me, has been preaching concerning the beast which was full of eyes before and behind; and for this he was hauled up for trial before the High Council.

I did not like the old man being called for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I WANT THE LIBERTY OF THINKING AND BELIEVING AS I PLEASE. IT FEELS GOOD NOT TO BE TRAMMELED. IT DOES NOT PROVE THAT A MAN IS NOT A GOOD MAN BECAUSE HE ERRS IN DOCTRINE." - History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 340

 

Should there even be heresies in the Church? - Joseph Smith didn't think so.

 

If all the errors in doctrine that are espoused on this forum-probably including some of mine-were subject to discipline, this would soon be formermornomdialouge.org. 

The bright line is not when we express an opinion that may not be doctrinally correct, it's when we refuse to sustain our leaders, especially the brethren, for not getting in behind us.

Edited by Buzzard
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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

Good job by Bruce R McConkie, his last talk was the greatest I have ever heard live, even memorized most of it, especially his closing remarks...God bless him!

It was a great talk.  Doesn't mean we have to agree with him that these are all heresies.  After all, some (most) of them were taught by the prophets of the Church.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

 

 

Should there even be heresies in the Church? - Joseph Smith didn't think so.

Are you saying that no one was ever instructed by Joseph Smith that they were teaching false doctrines and must stop?

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Are you saying that no one was ever instructed by Joseph Smith that they were teaching false doctrines and must stop?

 

I think Joseph was very open to what people can have opinions on, and not run afoul of teaching false doctrine after instruction.

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