Progression of Intelligence(s) & LGBT

[nuclearfuels]

I'm with Brigham on this one, and President Nelson.

Also I don't think God is done progressing.

Like you wrote, as His children increase in glory, so does He.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm with Brigham on this one, and President Nelson.

Also I don't think God is done progressing.

Like you wrote, as His children increase in glory, so does He.

ETA  Thread necromancy.

Just to be clear Brigham didn't limit God's progression in glory to kingdoms and posterity.

The glory of God is intelligence after all.  To progress in glory requires an increase of intelligence.

Edited May 31, 2018 by JLHPROF

[RevTestament]

59 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm with Brigham on this one, and President Nelson.

Also I don't think God is done progressing.

Like you wrote, as His children increase in glory, so does He.

God, ie Elohim, the Son does progress to be called the Father, to inherit the government of the Father, and presumably to the omniscience of the Father, which He did not share here on the earth. Rather, the Father told Him all things before they transpired. Isa 42:9. So I agree as to Elohim as the Son. How does one progress beyond omniscience though? The Father knows all and has power over all - even Satan. Don't see progression from that.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

God, ie Elohim, the Son does progress to be called the Father, to inherit the government of the Father, and presumably to the omniscience of the Father, which He did not share here on the earth. Rather, the Father told Him all things before they transpired. Isa 42:9. So I agree as to Elohim as the Son. How does one progress beyond omniscience though? The Father knows all and has power over all - even Satan. Don't see progression from that.

There is no such thing as omniscience.  It's science fiction.

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no such thing as omniscience.  It's science fiction.

Moroni 7:22

22 For behold, God ^aknowing all things, being from ^beverlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent ^cangels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Omniscience - the state of knowing everything.

Well, tell me what He doesn't know, and maybe I'll agree with you. I think He does know all there is to know. He has never indicated otherwise. Please don't quote BY. Scripture please. Nor do the scriptures reveal any progression in government for the Father.  As a member of Elohim, the Son does progress, yes, but I believe you will not be able to show the same for the Father. He is omniscient as that word is defined. He is El Elyon, the Most High. Scripturally, that is the ultimate. There is nothing higher, more powerful, or more knowledgeable. if you are going to say that JS said God Himself progresses, that is true for Yeshua as YHWH Elohim ie "Lord God" in English parlance. Progression does not rule out omniscience.

[mfbukowski]

On 9/20/2016 at 12:19 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm nervous to try and tackle this theory but I'll do my best. I'm definitely open to critique of my thought process here.

I've come to a bit of a realization today about the continuing debate about SSM and the role of gays in the plan of salvation. This modern debate seems to be based on elements similar to the debate in which Orson Pratt and Brigham Young engaged. Specifically, I'm thinking of their debate over intelligence(s) and the progression of God. (I'll do my best to describe this in the way that I understand it and I'll try to make this brief)

In essence, Orson Pratt claimed that the first God organized Himself from among eternally existing intelligences. These intelligences are the core and origin of each individual, including God. Pratt then claimed that God progressed sufficiently to become perfect at which time he organized other intelligences, the first of which was Jesus Christ. But the keys are a) preexisting individual intelligences  b) God progressed to perfection so His personal progression has ceased except for the continuing progression of the other intelligences He organized.

Brigham Young, on the other hand taught about intelligence as more of a force/material from which spirits were created, not as preexisting individuals. He taught that God, and therefore all spirits, eternally progress. Therefore God is not eternally perfect. Therefore God has a father, who has a father, who has a father etc. eternally.

The debate about the LGBT role in the plan of salvation, including SSM and eternal progression, seems to be at least partially rooted in this same debate. Is each individual preexisting and organized by God into a spirit with preexisting personal attributes, or is each spirit created by God from the material of intelligence.

IF each individual was organized from preexisting intelligences, or refined into a spirit by an eternally perfect God instead of being created from a substance of intelligence by a God who is still progressing, and therefore is not yet perfect/complete, then perhaps it's easier to believe that the individual, with all of it's particular idiosyncrasies, talents, character traits etc, including SS attraction, might eternally be gay by nature. The organization of the individual from the preexisting intelligences could be an asxual process instead of a sxual one. Therefore SS couples may also be capable of organizing intelligences in eternity because it doesn't involve a kind of sxual reproduction.

On the other hand, IF each individual was procreated by a still progressing God in companionship with a Heavenly Mother, from a substance of intelligence, then it may be more conceivable to think of sxual procreation as the method of spirit creation. With eternal progression a possibility I see how LGBT could be viewed by some as a "work in progress" that will continue to progress.

I view the eternal nature of LGBT in the terms I used to describe Pratt's argument and therefore as a natural and eternal characteristic which God would account for in His plan of salvation. Further, that SS couples could organize intelligences in the eternities and in that way have eternal offspring instead of being limited to sxual spirit reproduction. But by thinking of the BY model of a progressing God and the essentialness of sxual spirit reproduction, I can better appreciate the other point of view.

Thoughts? Rip away

 

 

Let's just say that if SSM requires an explanation like this one, theologically, I do not have much hope for SSM.

Tenuous assumption based upon speculative assumption based hopeful construction based on another tenuous assumption.

Better to just go for "I don't know how it works but I have a testimony SSM is a good thing" like every other moral conclusion like "murder is wrong".  

"A work in progress"?  

But thanks for at least trying to figure something out that has no theological basis in the LDS scheme whatsoever.  It helps illustrate that point well.  I am serious- how does one build a kingdom with spirits/ intelligences who cannot reproduce and more importantly apparently do not want to?

If the gay lifestyle is perfect and natural, then it must be self sustaining without additional members.  The only way I can imagine such an organization is through "converts only" and the whole premise is that there are NO "converts" to being gay, they are all born that way.

So eternal increase without the desire/ability to reproduce (because to desire what one cannot/will not want means one is unfulfilled and therefore not perfect) seems impossible without "conversion" of some kind.

So yes you are right and thanks for point out the different ways this does not work.

  

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no such thing as omniscience.  It's science fiction.

Nah, it's just a semantic confusion because it presumes there are a finite amount of "things" to be known without defining what such a "thing" could possibly be.

The world is relational with infinite variation so that each situation which could possibly happen becomes another "thing"-   THIS pool in the Mississippi with THIS used kleenex and THIS stick and THAT snail on THAT leaf with THESE exact molecules of water all of which changes every nanosecond- oh wait- is a nanosecond too long to form a relation which is a "Thing"??

Did God know that "Thing"?

And why would he have to ??

It's just the idea that he knows every 
THING

that is undefinable.   Yeah, he knows how it all works- that's good enough for me, and can fix it when it breaks

Oh wait.

That makes it science fiction doesn't it?

 

[carbon dioxide]

On 9/21/2016 at 8:19 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

To put it simply, LGBTQ people don't have a place in the plan of salvation as currently taught *unless* they are fundamentally changed in the next life and they get a kind of do over as heterosexuals. But they would only be fundamentally changed IF their orientation isn't part of their eternal identity. The confusion about the metaphysical origins of God, spirits, and creation/organization leave that open for debate.

So the fixation is about hoping to find a place for LGBTQ brothers and sisters in the church. Seems important to me.

Gays are no more special than anyone else.  We all have our unique issues to deal with. that have no place in the plan of salvation.  We have to learn to either overcome them and if we can't do that at least control them and put them within strict boundaries that is required of us.   If we want to become like God, we must become like God is.  He is the model and template what we must become as at some point in our existence.  For many it might take a long time in the eternities to get there.