Varying Valiantness of Plants and Animals?

[nuclearfuels]

First, please be patient as you read these. This question makes sense in my mind but laying it down correctly is kind of tricky.

PGP (Moses 3) states all things were created spiritually before they were created temporally. 

Went to the Sacred Grove in Palmyra, NY recently - a very kind senior missionary/guide told me there were a few "Witness trees" still in the Sacred Grove, these would be trees that were there when the First Vision occurred. 

Numbers 22:21-38 Balaam and the talking donkey

The animals in the Manger in Bethlehem where the Savior was born

The Trees in the Garden of Gethsemane

Isaiah - Lion and the lamb shall lie down together without any ire, suggesting they have the ability to progress to a state of total peace?

The Story of the Three Trees (which I understand is not doctrine but IMHO could be, as the spirit bodies of those trees could have demonstrated more faith premortally, than other plants and been given temporary probationary lives on earth where they interacted with the Savior): 

“Says one, ‘I cannot believe in the salvation of beasts.’ Any man who would tell you this could not be, would tell you that the revelations are not true. John heard the words of the beast giving glory to God, and understood them. God who made the beasts could understand every language spoken by them. The beasts were four of the most noble animals that filled the measure of their creation, and had been saved from other worlds, because they were perfect. They were like angels in their sphere. We are not told where they came from, and I do not know; but they were seen and heard by John praising and glorifying God.” (DHC, vol. 5, pp. 343–44.)

The ask: Though plants and animals don't have free agency, some of them clearly had more spiritual encounters during their lives on earth.  Does this suggest some of them were more valiant in the testimony of the Savior premortally?

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by nuclearfuels

[bluebell]

I don't think so.  I don't think there is anyway to be more or less valiant without agency.

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

First, please be patient as you read these. This question makes sense in my mind but laying it down correctly is kind of tricky.

PGP (Moses 3) states all things were created spiritually before they were created temporally. 

Went to the Sacred Grove in Palmyra, NY recently - a very kind senior missionary/guide told me there were a few "Witness trees" still in the Sacred Grove, these would be trees that were there when the First Vision occurred. 

Numbers 22:21-38 Balaam and the talking donkey

The animals in the Manger in Bethlehem where the Savior was born

The Trees in the Garden of Gethsemane

The Story of the Three Trees (which I understand is not doctrine but IMHO could be, as the spirit bodies of those trees could have demonstrated more faith premortally, than other plants and been given temporary probationary lives on earth where they interacted with the Savior): 

The ask: Though plants and animals don't have free agency, some of them clearly had more spiritual encounters during their lives on earth.  Does this suggest some of them were more valiant in the testimony of the Savior premortally?

 

I don’t think the trees in the grove witnessed anything other than Joseph falling unconscious on his back.

What makes you think animals, etc. don’t have agency?  Read the creation story in the PoGP.   God waited until the elements obeyed.  The Book of Mormon states that even the dust of the earth obeys.  This suggests agency.  All things have intelligence, spirit, and agency.  Mother Earth herself speaks in the scriptures and will be redeemed for her righteousness.

Edited May 31, 2018 by pogi

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don’t think the trees in the grove witnessed anything other than Joseph falling unconscious on his back.

So you don't believe that the First Vision happened in the physical world?

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So you don't believe that the First Vision happened in the physical world?

Right.  I see it more as an actual "vision" rather than a physical visitation. 

You can read my reasoning in the "What Joseph Smith did NOT learn from the first vision" thread. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don’t think the trees in the grove witnessed anything other than Joseph falling unconscious on his back.

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So you don't believe that the First Vision happened in the physical world?

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Right.  I see it more as an actual "vision" rather than a physical visitation.  

 

My opinion is still out on this one.  But a vision does explain how Joseph would be able to see the face of God and live without being consumed.

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But a vision does explain how Joseph would be able to see the face of God and live without being consumed.

Doesn't transfiguration also explain it?

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Doesn't transfiguration also explain it?

Yes, as with Mary and the Father.

I'm also open to the idea Joseph was "caught up".  Pretty much the only option I see an issue with is a fully mortal Joseph being in the physical presence of the Father.

[Maidservant]

While I do think that plants and animals have intelligence, spirit, and progression--as we all do--I think it's tricky to say that a given situation here on earth corresponds one-to-one with some kind of reward or punishment from any previous living.  Maybe the brightest and strongest have the toughest lives here because they are the only ones who could handle it.  I'm sure that animals and plants have agency at their level.  I also live with a cat who lets me know regularly that he is smarter and more holy than all of us in the family put together, ha ha ha.  He says it nicely :).

[bluebell]

Having been to the sacred grove, I'm inclined to believe that something miraculous and sacred happened there and that some of the trees were witness to it.  I've been to a lot of church history places around the country and they are all awesome, but I have never been anywhere that felt like the sacred grove felt.  It was a life changing experience for me, not in the sense of my testimony in the church or JS but in my relationship with God. 

[The Nehor]

Animals have their own existence to pass through. We do not know their end or their beginning or what purpose they serve beyond providing tasty meals for us.

Except fire ants. Their souls are all going to burn in hell for all eternity and I will watch and laugh......

[strappinglad]

If only we would fulfill the measure of our existence as well as most plants and animals do. Consider the lowly dandelion...talk about multiplying and replenishing !

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

If only we would fulfill the measure of our existence as well as most plants and animals do. Consider the lowly dandelion...talk about multiplying and replenishing !

And the lawnmower blade decapitating you. It is kind of a mixed blessing.

[strappinglad]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And the lawnmower blade decapitating you. It is kind of a mixed blessing. 

You have noticed that many are able to duck and then spring up once the mower is put away.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

You have noticed that many are able to duck and then spring up once the mower is put away.

Then I wring their necks. There is no escape......

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

F

The ask: Though plants and animals don't have free agency, some of them clearly had more spiritual encounters during their lives on earth.  Does this suggest some of them were more valiant in the testimony of the Savior premortally?

 

They may not have much agency in this mortal world as they are limited in ways just as man is limited.  God does not force anything against its will whether it be man or any other spirit or intelligence.  My dogs did not get placed on this earth against their will.  They came by their own choice to fulfill whatever purpose they have here and will move on.  Hopefully they will play a large part in my eternal family because I consider them in every way a part of my family and I could not have a complete, eternal family without them.

[Alan]

All a "witness tree" in the sacred grove would have "seen" is a boy on his knees.

It is called the First Vision for a reason. It was a vision. Joseph saw a vision, not a physical visitation. 

[Marginal Gains]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

Having been to the sacred grove, I'm inclined to believe that something miraculous and sacred happened there and that some of the trees were witness to it.  I've been to a lot of church history places around the country and they are all awesome, but I have never been anywhere that felt like the sacred grove felt.  It was a life changing experience for me, not in the sense of my testimony in the church or JS but in my relationship with God. 

Given that you went there already believing  the grove to be a sacred area where something miraculous and foundational happened, how did you discount the feeling as something other than confirmation bias?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Given that you went there already believing  the grove to be a sacred area where something miraculous and foundational happened, how did you discount the feeling as something other than confirmation bias?

Faith in Jesus Christ is a bias that promises to bear positive results in one's relationship with God and experience of sacred feelings.

[Marginal Gains]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Faith in Jesus Christ is a bias that promises to bear positive results in one's relationship with God and experience of sacred feelings.

Yeah, about faith...

“Branch Davidians Clive Doyle and Sheila Martin lost almost everything in the Waco fire, but not their faith.”

https://culteducation.com/group/1220-waco-davidians/30722-at-bible-study-with-david-koresh-s-last-followers.html

“The people that accepted David, the people who think God was using David, didn’t take kindly to having David run down and castigated constantly,”

Religious Faith is not a reliable trust metric, but everybody who has faith in something swears their faith is different, theirs is right and true.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[CV75]

20 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

The ask: Though plants and animals don't have free agency, some of them clearly had more spiritual encounters during their lives on earth.  Does this suggest some of them were more valiant in the testimony of the Savior premortally?

Where all life shares some very basic physical elements in common, I think the spiritual elements must be very similar, supporting the idea of a relationship between pre-mortal behavior and mortal assignment. Adam was given dominion over all life and all the earth, and by husbanding and tilling them, showed that dominion requires the capacity of the ruler to work and of the "dominioned" to be aware of the relationship.

As far as valiance goes, I think it is overrated since we're all here together with the same exalted aim. Alma 13 shows that some of those with “exceeding faith and good works” in the pre-mortal life chose good in this life and were called to perform God's work, “while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.” This may actually show how underrated agency is in fulfilling our pre-mortal hopes and promises.

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Faith is not a reliable trust metric, but everybody who has faith in something swears their faith is different, theirs is right and true. It never is.

What bias do you maintain that bears positive results in that which is meaningful to you?

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

What bias do you maintain that bears positive results in that which is meaningful to you?

I find that fact based critical thinking seems to work quite reliably. So I have a bias towards that.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

I find that fact based critical thinking seems to work quite reliably. So I have a bias towards that.

LOL

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Given that you went there already believing  the grove to be a sacred area where something miraculous and foundational happened, how did you discount the feeling as something other than confirmation bias?

Well, I didn't.  If you went to the sacred grove, already disbelieving, and it felt to you just like any old regular group of trees, how would you discount that feeling as something other than confirmation bias?  I'm guessing, you wouldn't.

Though I didn't spend any time on figuring out if the feeling was just confirmation bias, I did find it very interesting that the feeling was completely unexpected and also unlooked for.