Premortal and postmortal Sacrament Ordinance?

[JustAnAustralian]

To go back to the original post

On 2/28/2023 at 5:18 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Wondering what type of premortal and postmortal ordianance we may have / did / might have / might in the future also participate in

We've been told there are keys of resurrection, so I assume that resurrection is an ordinance that we will participate in post-mortally.

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Pyreaux using the Spirit of Samuel as evidence is not that great since if the Lord didn’t answer Saul when he prayed correctly, why would Saul get an answer when he used the forbidden ways?  There is the possibility it was a scam by the witch who knew the king and guessed what he was there for or it was a false spirit. 

That is a common argument, but it is based on nothing but personal ideology, whereas the actual text says no such thing, the text plainly says, "it was Samuel".

Why? The Biblical Antiquities of Philo pieces together the Law of Moses forbids just the Israelites from divining (except king-priests), that the Lord stopped responding to King Saul exactly when Saul unilaterally outlawed all, Israelite and Gentile, mediums in Israel, and the Lord responded by forcing him to seek out the very people he had turned into outlaws, a very kind Midianite Mistress of the Ob [ghosts]) who felt so bad for his ill fate on the battlefield, she fed him her only cow. Thus, seen a virtuous person to the Jews. Moses' law had a harsh penalty or summoning an ob, not because it was a scam, but because it was not.

Samuel looked exactly as he should (even with a priestly robe like the elohim wear) for Saul to verify his identity, and most importantly, everything the Spirit of Samuel said was the truth and comes to pass.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

Saul killing himself out of despair is not the same thing as dying at the hands of the Philistine.  I can see the text being interpreted multiple ways.

[Calm]

As taught by the Church…

Quote

Invite students to read 1 Samuel 28:7–10 silently, looking for what Saul did when he received no answer from God. Explain that the phrase “that hath a familiar spirit” in verse 7 refers to a person who claimed to be able to speak with the dead.

• What did Saul choose to do when he did not receive answers from God? (Instead of being obedient to the Lord and continuing to seek and strive to be worthy of revelation, Saul chose to turn to wicked sources. By seeking out the woman from Endor, Saul broke God’s command to not turn to those with “familiar spirits” [see Leviticus 19:31].)

Summarize 1 Samuel 28:11–25 by explaining that the woman Saul went to see claimed that she had called the prophet Samuel from the dead to speak to Saul. She told Saul that he and his sons would be killed the next day in battle with the Philistines. Explain that, despite what she said, it is not possible for a person like this woman to be able to summon the spirits of the Lord’s departed servants. She either pretended to see Samuel or was under the influence of evil powers when she delivered her message to Saul (see Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66], 4:107–8).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-material-2018/1-samuel/lesson-91?lang=eng
 

I don’t agree on occasion with what the Church teaches about scripture, so I am not using this as a slam-dunk argument, but to show the view it wasn’t Samuel is seen as a valid interpretation. Scriptures are not infallible, it is possible whoever wrote that part of Samuel believed the witch called up Samuel, but it is contrary to other teachings in my opinion and obviously with those who wrote the manual and approved it.

[Durangout]

18 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'd love to read it and happy to repay you in karma if you could point me in the right direction (year/decade, Gen Conf?)

How about this?

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/neal-a-maxwell/meeting-challenges-today/

 

“This is an eternal law, brothers and sisters—it prevailed in the first estate as well as in the second. It should not disconcert us, therefore, that the Lord has indicated that he chose some individuals before they came here to carry out certain assignments and, hence, these individuals have been foreordained to those assignments. “Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of Heaven before the world was. I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council” (Joseph Fielding Smith, comp., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 365).

Foreordination is like any other blessing—it is a conditional bestowal subject to our faithfulness. Prophesies foreshadow events without determining the outcomes, because of a divine foreseeing of outcomes. So foreordination is a conditional bestowal of a role, a responsibility, or a blessing which, likewise, foresees but does not fix the outcome.”

Edited March 2, 2023 by Durangout

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

As taught by the Church…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-material-2018/1-samuel/lesson-91?lang=eng

I don’t agree on occasion with what the Church teaches about scripture, so I am not using this as a slam-dunk argument, but to show the view it wasn’t Samuel is seen as a valid interpretation. Scriptures are not infallible, it is possible whoever wrote that part of Samuel believed the witch called up Samuel, but it is contrary to other teachings in my opinion and obviously with those who wrote the manual and approved it.

It's a super common and very modern-day interpretation, and I would not expect the Church to break away from the pack on every Biblical issue. Many who even supposing the Witch of Endor to be a fraud think it might still be Samuel that appeared, as the text says. Just, rather than being summoned, simply comes of his own accord, to truthfully tell him God chose David and he and his sons will join him in Sheol tomorrow. That was exactly the case, it wasn't a lie.

The Jewish historic accounts of Pseudo-Philo and Josephus says it was Samuel himself, and that Saul was brave and might even have been a Blood Atonement.

The Biblical Antiquities of Philo - LXIV

1 Then Saul took thought, saying: I will surely take away the sorcerers out of the land of Israel. So shall men remember me after my departure. And Saul scattered all the sorcerers [1 Sam. 28:3] out of the land. And God said: Behold, Saul hath taken away the sorcerers out of the land, not because of the fear of me, but that he might make himself a name. Behold, whom he hath scattered, unto them let him resort, and get divination from them, because he hath no prophets.

"... there is a woman named Sedecla.. the daughter of Adod the Madianite... in Endor. ... she said: Lo, these 40 years have I raised up the dead for the Philistines, but this appearance hath not been seen... What is his form? And she said: Thou inquirest of me concerning the gods. For, behold, his form is not the form of a man. For he is arrayed in a white robe and hath a mantle upon it, and two angels leading him. [1 Sam. 19:27]."

"... boast not thyself, O king, neither thou, O woman. For it is not ye that have brought me up, but the precept which God spake unto me while I yet lived, that I should come and tell thee that thou hadst sinned yet the second time in neglecting God... therefore to-morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me... And Saul heard the words of Samuel, and his soul melted and he said: Behold, I depart to die with my sons, if perchance my destruction may be an atonement for mine iniquities."

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews - VI:14

2. Now Saul, the king of the Hebrews, had cast out of the country the fortune-tellers, and the necromancers, and all such as exercised the like arts, excepting the prophets... a necromancer and called up the souls of the dead... his servants told him that there was such a woman in the city Endor... the woman opposed his motion, and said she did not despise the king, who had banished this sort of fortune-tellers, and that he did not do well himself, when she had done him no harm, to endeavor to lay a snare for her, and to discover that she exercised a forbidden art, in order to procure her to be punished, he sware that nobody should know what she did...

... he bid her bring up to him the soul of Samuel. She, not knowing who Samuel was, called him out of Hades. When he appeared, and the woman saw one that was venerable, and of a divine form, she was in disorder; and being astonished at the sight, she said, "Art not thou king Saul?" for Samuel had informed her who he was. When he had owned that to be true, and had asked her whence her disorder arose, she said that she saw a certain person ascend, who in his form was like to a god. And when he bid her tell him what he resembled, in what habit he appeared, and of what age he was, she told him he was an old man already, and of a glorious personage, and had on a sacerdotal mantle. So the king discovered by these signs that he was Samuel; and he fell down upon the ground, and saluted and worshipped him...

"... Samuel, seeing that the end of Saul's life was come, said, "It is in vain for thee to desire to learn of me any thing future, when God hath forsaken thee: however, hear what I say, that David is to be king, and to finish this war with good success; and thou art to lose thy dominion and thy life, because thou didst not obey God in the war with the Amalekites, and hast not kept his commandments, as I foretold thee while I was alive. Know, therefore, that the people shall be made subject to their enemies, and that thou, with thy sons, shall fall in the battle tomorrow, and thou shalt then be with me [in Hades]."

"When Saul heard this, he could not speak for grief, and fell down on the floor... the woman would force him to eat, begging this of him as a favor on account of her concern in that dangerous instance of fortune-telling, which it was not lawful for her to have done, because of the fear she was under of the king, while she knew not who he was, yet did she undertake it, and go through with it; on which account she entreated him to admit that a table and food might be set before him, that he might recover his strength, and so get safe to his own camp. And when he opposed her motion, and entirely rejected it, by reason of his anxiety, she forced him, and at last persuaded him to it. Now she had one calf that she was very fond of, and one that she took a great deal of care of, and fed it herself; for she was a woman that got her living by the labor of her own hands, and had no other possession but that one calf; this she killed, and made ready its flesh, and set it before his servants and himself."

4. Now it is but just to recommend the generosity of this woman, because when the king had forbidden her to use that art whence her circumstances were bettered and improved, and when she had never seen the king before, she still did not remember to his disadvantage that he had condemned her sort of learning, and did not refuse him as a stranger, and one that she had had no acquaintance with; but she had compassion upon him, and comforted him, and exhorted him to do what he was greatly averse to, and offered him the only creature she had, as a poor woman, and that earnestly, and with great humanity, while she had no requital made her for her kindness, nor hunted after any future favor from him, for she knew he was to die; whereas men are naturally either ambitious to please those that bestow benefits upon them, or are very ready to serve those from whom they may receive some advantage. It would be well therefore to imitate the example and to do kindnesses to all such...

... Saul the king of the Hebrews; for although he knew what was coming upon him, and that he was to die immediately, by the prediction of the prophet, he did not resolve to fly from death, nor so far to indulge the love of life as to betray his own people to the enemy, or to bring a disgrace on his royal dignity; but exposing himself, as well as all his family and children, to dangers, he thought it a brave thing to fall together with them, as he was fighting for his subjects, and that it was better his sons should die thus, showing their courage, than to leave them to their uncertain conduct afterward, while, instead of succession and posterity, they gained commendation and a lasting name.

...for himself, he fought with great bravery; and when he had received so many wounds, that he was not able to bear up nor to oppose any longer, and yet was not able to kill himself, he bade his armor-bearer draw his sword, and run him through, before the enemy should take him alive. ... and asked a certain young man that stood by who he was; and when he understood that he was an Amalekite, he desired him to force the sword through him, because he was not able to do it with his own hands, and thereby to procure him such a death as he desired. This the young man did accordingly"

... To this his end did Saul come, according to the prophecy of Samuel"

Edited March 2, 2023 by Pyreaux

[nuclearfuels]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:13 PM, Calm said:

. 

Thank you, Calm. 

I don't get why Nehor shared it in the first place. Was it shared implying my analogy / presumption of such ordinances was on equally shaky ground as Saul's experience?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you, Calm. 

I don't get why Nehor shared it in the first place. Was it shared implying my analogy / presumption of such ordinances was on equally shaky ground as Saul's experience?

I can’t speak for him and am not following his thought except for perhaps the first post.  If it was my comment, I would be only disagreeing with the spirit of Samuel being used as evidence by Pyreaux rather than in reference to your original post or anything else Pyreaux said. At times I will notice something I think is inaccurate and will just post about the isolated item to correct it without regard to how it is being used, but Nehor appears to have something more definite in mind given his two responses, but I can’t see any breadcrumbs to follow the track of his thought. 
 

I am interested in the idea of ordinances outside mortality, but haven’t really thought about the Sacrament in such a way.  And so far nothing it setting off any lightbulbs. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Calm