Woman blames the church and not her ex-husband, for being abused by him

[bluebell]

https://news.yahoo.com/lifestyle/woman-domestically-abused-her-ex-041500159.html

Quote

 

A woman on TikTok named Jennie Gage focuses much of her content on how her life has turned around since she left her former church. In a 6-part series covering some of the struggles she endured throughout her time as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, also known as Mormons, Gage explained the trauma and abuse she had endured for years at the hands of her ex-husband Jake.

In another video, she discussed how Jake would cheat on her, lie to her, and go behind her back to be with other women.

RELATED: My Husband Raped Me On Our Wedding Night — And I Didn't Realize It

“Jake’s family for generations just like my family thought that their priest leaders, and going to the temple, and obeying the covenants and saying our prayers was a cure for everything," Gage explained, discussing how she continued facing abuse until they left the LDS church.

 

The article goes on but I didn't want to paste the whole thing.

Thoughts? Is the church to blame for people doing things that the church teaches are sinful and wrong?

[rodheadlee]

Of course she blames the church. They have deep pockets.

 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Of course she blames the church. They have deep pockets.

 

She's not trying to legally hold them accountable though.  Only morally I think.  She's saying that it's the culture of the church and it's teachings that caused her ex-husband to cheat on her and abuse her.  So I don't think the church's deep pockets have anything to do with it.

She also makes the claim that every therapist she worked with agreed with her.

[webbles]

I was confused by that article so I listened to the first tiktok linked in the article.

What I got out of her video was that she felt that the church culture both allowed and encouraged the abuse to happen.  It allowed it to happen because you would be told that you can be forgiven and repent so it gave you good vibes even though you continued to abuse.  It also allowed it to happen because you would get a priesthood blessing to stop it and so could believe that it would stop at some point.  It encouraged the abuse by forcing unrealistic expectations on her husband (5 kids, stay at home wife, large callings, etc) that he would take out on her and her kids.  And she had similar unrealistic expectations so she couldn't talk about it.

She also mentions many times the "good vibes" of the spirit and how it was deceiving.  The last part was interesting about how leaving the church helped her and others to start making rational decisions with information instead of decisions based on "good vibes".

 

I can partially agree with her.

[blackstrap]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

She's saying that it's the culture of the church and it's teachings that caused her ex-husband to cheat on her and abuse her. 

I must have missed those lessons. I did attend lessons where we were told Not to cheat and abuse, but knowing human nature ,people immediately rebel against being told Not to do something. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, webbles said:

I can partially agree with her.

Can you elaborate?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

I must have missed those lessons. I did attend lessons where we were told Not to cheat and abuse, but knowing human nature ,people immediately rebel against being told Not to do something. 

All those lessons obviously don't count.   

[Tacenda]

Just now, blackstrap said:

I must have missed those lessons. I did attend lessons where we were told Not to cheat and abuse, but knowing human nature ,people immediately rebel against being told Not to do something. 

I've heard of many women that were told to stay in marriages like this, and forgive their husband. But that's probably not been the case as much now. 

I have noticed in the past though, the differences of how my sister and my's PH holding husbands' treated us (all of us very active and temple worthy) compared to my other two sisters who were married to a Catholic and an inactive LDS. And sometimes it was a stark contrast on how we were treated compared to them. Not that either of us were abused physically but more an indifference sort of attitude to us. If that's the word to use or somewhat a lack of respect as to our intellectual sides, as if we had to dumb down or be second in command or something, just not as thoughtful as to our feelings, hard to explain and I'm probably not making sense. I guess if you live with it forever you don't realize until you see the opposite with others' relationships. Plus, in family get together's with my husband's side who are LDS stalwarts I see it a lot. The patriarchy or something. But I have a couple of sister in laws that nip it in the bud, lol. 

My husband has never cheated, or physically abused me. But throughout our marriage he will treat me badly because of all things.....I do too much to help others, or maybe I'm annoying like I have to offer them more shade in our very sunny backyard and I'm jumping up moving umbrellas etc. Or jumping up to do something to make it better at a gathering, and this embarrasses him. 

I recently answered the door to a young man who offered to give me an estimate on cleaning our windows. I was excited because for years I've washed all of our windows but once and I had recently wanted to try it again and help those that want to make a living. So I jumped on it and said sure, and he in the mean time was going around the house to count. Well, my husband who was in the tub, had jumped out and got dressed and came out on the porch in a huff about me okaying the windows to be done at a measly 200 bucks! He like doesn't respect my decisions on what we spend our money on. We are not hurting at all. And after the young man left, I started to freak out and bawl and tell him how that made me feel for him to treat the guy badly, and the guy probably thought I was in an abusive relationship. My husband felt bad about his actions and is going to apologize when he comes back next Monday, but this happens all the time. 

While making a large dinner for my family, my husband gets mad if I want it just so, and it seemed like I was never ready before he says, "time to bless the food", before I had spoons in bowls or what not, and everyone will immediately line up to eat. This happened time and time again. 

So there's this. 

 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

She's not trying to legally hold them accountable though.  Only morally I think.  She's saying that it's the culture of the church and it's teachings that caused her ex-husband to cheat on her and abuse her.  So I don't think the church's deep pockets have anything to do with it.

She also makes the claim that every therapist she worked with agreed with her.

I don't think she can prove the church had anything to do with it, or else she would. But she can get famous with a good unprovable sob story.

Now, I mostly believe her, about the husband being abusive. I had an uncle who verbally abused his wife (who divorced him) and children (the boys became addicts), and he invoked his priesthood authority while doing so. It was much later when the children were adults, most of them inactive, yet were visiting intown and at a church during a testimony meeting, he took the opportunity to go to the pulpit to implore his children that he was just a bad father and the church had nothing to do with any of it. I think it's unfair when you find a member act like a hypocrite, or exercise unrighteous dominion, and so easily leave people the wrong impression about what the church teaches or approves of. It's clearly not. 

What sort of "Therapists"... Like John Dehlin?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Pyreaux

[webbles]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate?

We sometimes consider those who act like good members (go to church, have callings, go to temple, etc) are righteous.  If I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do, then I'm a righteous.  If I do a bad sin, I can repent by talking to the bishop and once he has given "forgiven" me, I'm righteous again by doing the correct acts.  It doesn't matter if I repeat the sin, because I just need to talk to the bishop again.

Unfortunately, for abuse situations, the victim doesn't see any change.  The perpetrator views themselves as righteous because they are doing all the correct outward acts.  So they aren't making the changes needed to actually help the victim.

The church does teach that repentance requires us to make restitution to the victim, so I wouldn't go so far as to blame the church for the abuse like she did.  But, abusers can forget that part or think they fulfilled that part and so believe they have really repented.  And from the victim's point of view, they could feel resentful towards the church for forgiving their abuser.

I have an extended family that I know where something like this happened.  Abuse occurred but because the abuser was an upstanding member of the church (and community), the abuser was actually righteous and had repented.  The abuser also treated others like that.  During a time when I was an temple ordinance worker, they considered me to be one of the most righteous person on earth.  Didn't matter what else I did, just mattered that I worked at the temple.

[Tacenda]

Another one, a couple we hang out with's husband got mad at his wife because she lost her key to a dumb lock on her bike right in front of us and another time he called her stupid during a game we were playing. Not saying there aren't fantastic PH holders out there though. 

[Kenngo1969]

27 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

... I had an uncle who verbally abused his wife (who divorced him) and children (the boys became addicts), and he invoked his priesthood authority while doing so. It was much later when the children were adults, most of them inactive, yet were visiting at a church during a testimony meeting, he took the chance to go to the pulpit to implore his children that he was just a bad father and the church had nothing to do with any of it. I think it is unfair when you find a member act like a hypocrite, and exercise unrighteous dominion, it can so easily leave people the wrong impression about what the church teaches or approves of. It clearly (is) not. ...

That must've been an interesting testimony meeting.  I hope the spirit was there!

[smac97]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

She's not trying to legally hold them accountable though.  Only morally I think. She's saying that it's the culture of the church and it's teachings that caused her ex-husband to cheat on her and abuse her.  So I don't think the church's deep pockets have anything to do with it.

She also makes the claim that every therapist she worked with agreed with her.

From the article:

Quote

“I see a man that I lived with for 24 years, he was under constant stress, who always acted like he was about to explode because he was dying under the five kids and the callings that sucked 40 hours of his life,” Gage said.

Wow.

"Dying under the five kids."  I wonder how her children feel about being characterized in this way.  Publicly.  

Also, "40 hours of his life?"  Like, 40 hours per week?  I find that difficult to believe, even for a time-consuming calling such as bishop.  And if "Jake" had been a bishop, I suspect she would be trumpeting this to the skies.

Also, from this video:

Quote

I've had comments on my video about my cheating husband, and asking if I would ever forgive and forget and move on.  And before I say what I'm going to say, I want to be very clear that yes, Jake does have responsibility in his actions.  He could have done the right thing at any time.  He could have listened to his gut and not harmed me and our kids and other people.  But our story, our family's story, is not a story of a bad man.  And he is not the villain.  Our story was the story of a family caught in the control of the Mormon Church.  And Joseph Smith and his religion are the bad guys.  Jake is the natural result of multi{ple} generations of high-demand religious control and abuse.  Jake's grandma was a Bingham and a Larsen, some of the original founders of Ogden, Utah, for the Mormons who know.  And she was the youngest, she was the baby in a family that had been a big polygamist family.  Her childhood was extremely problematic, and their family was well over capacity with I think 13 kids.  So when she was 14, fourteen years old, she meets a guy one summer who was there in Ogden in the Army, and marries him at age 14.  And relocates to his home town in Arkansas, where me and my kids have spent part of our li{ves}.  Literally on the very family homestead where they moved to, which was a little chuck of farm property with a literal one-room shack.  I knew Jake's grandma well, and I loved her, and as I heard the story of her life I've often wondered how this young teenage girl made a life for herself, had two babies.  Mack (?) was in a little one-room shack far away from her family.  Grandpa, by the way, was a nonmember, and he would be until his death at age 96.  They were married for something like 70-something years.  He was a steel mill worker, she eventually became a nurse.  And all they wanted was a better life for their two children.  So she sent her daughter off to BYU.  At BYU. that daughter, who was Jason's (?) mom, would meet Jason's dad, who was an 18-year-old kid from Portland, Oregon, who was a second-generation Mormon.  And instead of getting an education, and being able to be self-reliant in her life, she would come home from school married.  That marriage ended, two children and four years later.  Leaving Jason's Mom a single mom, moving back home to that little property that her parents had lived on, and moving into a run-down trailer where my ex-husband was raised in abject poverty, by the way.  Mormon dad never had anything to do with him, didn't support him.  And in order to create a better life, Jake's Mom would once again put all of her faith in the Mormon Church.  She would save every penny that she had to get him out on a Mormon mission.  At that point Jake already had years of addictive and predatory behaviors, and rather than getting him actual help, the mission was supposed to be the answer to everything.  Jake knew before he went on his mission that he needed help, but instead of therapy or recovery programs or anything that is scientifically proven to help, he put all of his faith in the special power of LDS mission service.  

Quite a few variables here.  Quite a few people, quite a few decisions and courses of action taken.

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

Well, because everything I know about church culture I learned from Under the Banner of Heaven, I'm sympathetic to this woman and her claims.  

[pogi]

I can see how there might be a false sense of security for some in the church, that all will be made right if one just prays hard enough, or believes hard enough, etc. thus justifying to oneself that external professional help is not needed.  The bishop (more so in past generations) was seen as the judge in Israel, counselor, therapist, mediator, advocate, legal expert, and best resource to find a good plumber in the neighborhood...  My dad was bishop for 10 years in that generation and he was everything to everybody...except to his children he was mostly just an idea.  He was mostly absent from the home and out magnifying his calling to the max acting as a personal therapist to the ward.  I remember feeling a sense that if one couldn't figure out their problems via the bishop and the church and had to actually go see a professional therapist, then there was something dreadfully wrong with them.  It was pretty taboo.  I think that was pretty true outside Mormonism too though.  I could see how that culture and mindset might contribute to false security and fertile soil for the problem to endure untreated.  I could see how that might cause some resentment.  As far as accountability goes though, the abuser is 100% accountable for his own actions - not the church. 

 

[Calm]

I think perfectionism might raise stress levels and cut down on the ability to say no, to accept falling short and to ask for help.  And as far as our church culture nurtures perfectionism, that might contribute to abuse.

But I also think there are a lot of factors that work to prevent abuse in our culture (as evidenced by the documented rate being 1/3 or 1/5 —I need to check on which it is—of the expected rate of abuse in LDS BS troops as documented in the BS abuse records).

If you are an abuse victim looking for reasons for being abused, it makes sense to look on the less helpful aspects rather than the protective ones.  Part of the reason is it can be hard to accept the person you chose to partner with is abusive because of who they are because that may cause you to feel responsible or even deserving of the abuse since it was your choice (you are not).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

My dad was bishop for 10 years in that generation and he was everything to everybody...except to his children he was mostly just an idea.  He was mostly absent from the home and out magnifying his calling to the max acting as a personal therapist to the ward.  I remember feeling a sense that if one couldn't figure out their problems via the bishop and the church and had to actually go see a professional therapist, then there was something dreadfully wrong with them.  It was pretty taboo.  I think that was pretty true outside Mormonism too though.

Yep, I remember from the '70's and '80's, people were highly skeptical of shrinks.  Lithium showed up in the '70's, Prozac in 1988, medicating our children gained popularity through the '90's, and people fought tooth and nail against it every step of the way.  I noticed this both in the church and out.  I was the only LDS as I grew up in my parent's house, my dad was a beer drinking union democrat, my school and friends were maybe 50/50 LDS or not.  I heard only criticism of mental health doctors or antidepressants, from everyone, until the mid-'90's.   Non-LDS culture may have had a slight lead on LDS culture, but not by a lot of years.  

My cousin and friend was seeing a counselor and taking brain pills in the '80's.  Things were whispered in secret to folks who could be supportive in secret.  He was ashamed and never breathed a word of it around me, I heard about it from the endless mocking from the general public and peer groups.  It was something Rush Limbaugh and my blue dog union democrat Dad agreed about - medicating our children was an evil attempt by wicked doctors to make America dumber and was probably a communist plot too.  (The 1980's were whack.)

Edited August 2, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[MorningStar]

Oh brother. 

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

She's not trying to legally hold them accountable though.  Only morally I think.  She's saying that it's the culture of the church and it's teachings that caused her ex-husband to cheat on her and abuse her.  So I don't think the church's deep pockets have anything to do with it.

She also makes the claim that every therapist she worked with agreed with her.

I was taught adultery is a grievous sin. To me repenting means go and sin no more. In other words don't repeat the same sin or you really have not repented.

Edited August 2, 2023 by rodheadlee

[rpn]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband has never cheated, or physically abused me. But ...

So there's this. 

What you describe is wrong and he needs help to quit being a _______.    There are many of us who do not live up to our eternal potential in small and large ways that leave those who experience the worst of us struggling with the results.  I am so very sorry.   And I hope you tell him that behavior is absolutely wrong  and you can spend $200 (or $1000 if that is reasonable in your budget, whether he likes it or not --- maybe tell him you'll even pay it to him if he gets it done within a week?)

If you haven't read Bonds that make us Free"  by C. Terry Warner,  I'd consider doing it (hopeful with both of you reading it together  and discussing it).

[The Nehor]

I suspect this is a kind of transference. She still on some level loves her husband so it is easy to put the blame on the church. You see this with adulterous and cheating SOs/spouses where some people blame the affair partner and not their own partner for what happened because they love their partner and it is easy to put all the hate and blame on someone you don’t care about.

In my younger and wilder days when I dabbled in polyamory you could see the same thing even more clearly. While it was warned against by everyone with experience it was common to blame your choices to spend less time or effort on one partner on the demands of the other partner. Sometimes it was true. Sometimes it was a lie. In both cases though it was someone not taking responsibility for their own choices and blaming it on others. Almost inevitably in people with two of more relationships who blamed their choices not to focus on one partner on the other they were doing the same thing with both partners.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I was taught adultery is a grievous sin. To me repenting means go and sin no more. In other words don't repeat the same sin or you really have not repented.

Complete agree. I don’t think there’s anyway to spin someone’s choice to commit adultery as the church’s fault.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Has anyone actually watched the series? Part two and three go into more specifics about her particular situation. See for example part 3:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8LNrDud/

The article is kind of vague as to why she blames the church, but she is quite specific in her series. 
 

In part church leaders encouraged her to marry her ex as a cure for his addictive behaviors, while encouraging her ex to keep her in the dark. Based on her perspective. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Thinking]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Is the church to blame for people doing things that the church teaches are sinful and wrong?

In a patriarchal culture, there will be those who misinterpret what it means to be the "head of the household." I have witnessed both ends of the spectrum. I would say that in my small corner of the Mormon world, most of the men that I know don't order their wives around. Unfortunately, it's the bad apples that get the headlines. A headline like "Husband does the dishes after dinner" isn't going to sell papers.

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

In a patriarchal culture, there will be those who misinterpret what it means to be the "head of the household." I have witnessed both ends of the spectrum. I would say that in my small corner of the Mormon world, most of the men that I know don't order their wives around. Unfortunately, it's the bad apples that get the headlines. A headline like "Husband does the dishes after dinner" isn't going to sell papers.

So true. I was regarded by others as the head of the family, but if I told my wife that she would laugh, because she knows better. I brought home the bacon, but she paid the bills and  was the one that actually ran the family.  We loved and respected each other too much to ever abuse each other.