Woman blames the church and not her ex-husband, for being abused by him

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Amulek said:

This.

Like...a thousand times this.

 

At 12? Okay..

[webbles]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

At 12? Okay..

Maturation meetings are 5th grade in all the elementary school districts I've been in (4 so far and 2 states).  5th graders are 10-11.  I know I learned about it around 4th-5th grade and it definitely wasn't from church settings.

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, webbles said:

Maturation meetings are 5th grade in all the elementary school districts I've been in (4 so far and 2 states).  5th graders are 10-11.  I know I learned about it around 4th-5th grade and it definitely wasn't from church settings.

I don't ever remember being taught about masturbation in maturation meetings. Or my kids, but we do live in Utah.

[gopher]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've never seen it utilized so I'm not sure how helpful it is.  My gut reaction is that having more people available to help is probably a good thing, but it could go wrong.  In this case, the RS president never would have been involved since it was a confession of sin that brought the bishop into contact with the woman, and it sounds like it was at that point he was recommending marriage (according to her).

In this case, the Bishop still could have asked her if she would prefer to meet with the RS president (or a ministering sister) for future counseling.  He would also ask if she would like him to explain any of the details of the situation to the RS president or not.  It would be up to her to decide how much to share.  Then the Bishop meets with the RS president/member and requests their help. That's how it was explained to us in training.  It's actually worked well so far.  The Bishop still follows up and stays informed about any progress.  Some people prefer to only meet with the Bishop, but it provides another option, especially for sisters who would rather meet with another sister.  Of course, the Bishop still has to conduct worthiness interviews for temple recommends since that can't be outsourced.

Just because the Bishop recommends marriage doesn't mean it's a sin if you choose not to.  But I understand some people feel differently.

[gopher]

4 hours ago, Norma pearson said:

In Utah Mormons get raped between ages 3 to 12 by your prophet, you must ugly kid, so the prophet didn't rape you .

Where did you escape from?

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Norma pearson said:

In Utah Mormons get raped between ages 3 to 12 by your prophet, you must ugly kid, so the prophet didn't rape you .

This is coocoo for cocoa puffs, lol! 

[webbles]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't ever remember being taught about masturbation in maturation meetings. Or my kids, but we do live in Utah.

At least one maturation meeting that I've attended mentioned it.  They didn't describe it or go into detail, but said that if you have questions about it, ask an adult.

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

At 12? Okay..

Yes, by age twelve you ought to have started having conversations with your kids about these topics - especially nowadays considering how prevalent cell phone usage is (as high as 71% at that age according to some studies I've seen). If you think your kids aren't going to be exposed to this kind of information until they reach high school you are kidding yourself.

I happen to have a son who recently turned twelve. He has had two videos / classes at school on the subject, one each year for the last two years, and we had our first father-son talk beginning when he was 10.

Note: I don't really believe in having "the talk" (in the sense of it being a one-time kind of thing); we have had multiple conversations over the last couple of years and will continue to do so as he grows and matures just like we have done with our older daughter. My wife and I have impressed upon our children that there is nothing out of bounds or taboo about this topic - it's just something else that we talk about.

I'm curious though: how old was Sam's daughter when he says she was asked those questions by her bishop? I clicked the link, saw that the podcast was over an hour and a half long and then promptly closed the browser tab - there's just no way I'm going to listen that long to find out - but if you happen to remember I would be interested in knowing.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Amulek

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Yes, by age twelve you ought to have started having conversations with your kids about these topics - especially nowadays considering how prevalent cell phone usage is (as high as 71% at that age according to some studies I've seen). If you think your kids aren't going to be exposed to this kind of information until they reach high school you are kidding yourself.

I happen to have a son who recently turned twelve. He has had two videos / classes at school on the subject, one each year for the last two years, and we had our first father-son talk beginning when he was 10.

Note: I don't really believe in having "the talk" (in the sense of it being a one-time kind of thing); we have had multiple conversations over the last couple of years and will continue to do so as he grows and matures just like we have done with our older daughter. My wife and I have impressed upon our children that there is nothing out of bounds or taboo about this topic - it's just something else that we talk about.

I'm curious though: how old was Sam's daughter when he says she was asked those questions by her bishop? I clicked the link, saw that the podcast was over an hour and a half long and then promptly closed the browser tab - there's just no way I'm going to listen that long to find out - but if you happen to remember I would be interested in knowing.

 

I think he said she was 12. You apparently missed where I said to go to the time stamp at 7.5 minutes in.

I must have really dropped the ball, because I never thought to discuss masturbation with my children, and my parents didn't with me. 

So good for you, but sometimes I wonder if we don't do it 100 percent correctly, what if it spurs on a habit? Or I'm off the mark again.

I just think with the internet, children will look up stuff and that will just take that sublime innocence away, even at 11 or 12. And heaven forbid if a bishop brings it up at their eight year old bishop interview. 

[MustardSeed]

12 is a very appropriate age for parents to talk to kids about m, but I’d be unhappy with any church leader who talked with a child alone about it. 

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

12 is a very appropriate age for parents to talk to kids about m, but I’d be unhappy with any church leader who talked with a child alone about it. 

This is my thinking as well.  Hearing about it from your parent, or as a passive listener at a meeting full of other kids your age and multiple adults, is a lot different than being asked if you personally do it in a closed meeting one-on-one with an adult you might not know very well or at all. 

The two experiences are not really comparable in my opinion.

[Amulek]

So, back to the subject of the OP...I got online and browsed through her TikTok feed last night. It was painful - mostly because I really hate that platform as a medium. A lot of her posts tend to ramble on and repeat themselves quite a bit, but I did get a sense that she is someone who has gone through some legitimate trials and abuse. I genuinely feel for her.

She also seems to be someone who, and I'm going to try and say this as respectfully as possible, has some meaningful underlying problems of her own. She has attempted suicide* on at least two occasions: once as a teenager and again after she left the church and divorced her husband. I very much question the wisdom of her re-marrying within a year of getting out of her last relationship; hopefully she is with a good guy now (she claims he's the love of her life), but he is divorced as well and it's got a strong 'triumph of hope over experience' kind of feel to it.

I'm not going to go through everything and pick apart all the details, but I will say that watching several of her clips confirmed to me that we are definately not getting the whole story on a lot of things. That being said, if she is genuinely happier now that she has left the church, I'm perfectly fine with that. And if she wants to vent to the world about how much she hates the church - that's fine too (it's a free country after all). But when you blame the church for creating abusers and adulterers, I'm sorry, but now you've gone off the rails and no amount of sympathy that I have for you is going to convince me to go along with that. It's just too ridiculous.

*Sorry, but I just cannot bring myself to use the phrase "un-alifed." Apparently that's a popular euphemism on social media now; bleh - just one more reason to hate social media I guess (not that I needed more).

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Apparently that's a popular euphemism on social media now;

Some of the experts generally recommend we should not use euphemisms because that softens what it really is, may make it look more attractive, etc; we should be describing it as killing oneself.  Even using “attempted suicide” distances it from the harsh reality of what they are doing and what it could lead to (not just death, but maiming or brain damage).

Others prefer “took their life” as “commit” or “killing” makes it sound like a crime or sin, which may decrease their desire to open up about any ideation.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Calm

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think he said she was 12. You apparently missed where I said to go to the time stamp at 7.5 minutes in.

I did miss that. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

I listened for five minutes and he does say that one of his daughters reported being asked if she masturbated during several of her annual interviews, including when she was 12.

He also reported that not only did she not know what the word meant but that none of her 12 year old friends knew what it meant either (even those outside the church) so she decided to look it up online.* Frankly, I find that part rather dubious. Not the part about her being curious and looking it up - that part I believe - but that none of her peers had even heard the word before. I'm very much skeptical about that. Sam Young is younger than my parents, so I am presumably older than his children, and I had definately heard that word by the time I was that age. I was never asked about it by a bishop, but I wouldn't have been confused if I had been - same for pretty much all of my friends.

*Which means that all the bishop did was ask the question - not go into any details or have any sort of meaningful discussion (lengthy or otherwise) with her about the topic.

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I must have really dropped the ball, because I never thought to discuss masturbation with my children, and my parents didn't with me. 

I guess it just never occurred to me to not talk about it. I mean, it's probably the form of sexual expression that kids are most likely to encounter or experiment with first. My parents talked to us about it when we were kids, and my wife and I have done the same with our children. In fact, when I heard on the podcast that Sam had six daughters and that he had never used "the m-word" even once in their home - ever - I thought that was really kind of strange.

 

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So good for you, but sometimes I wonder if we don't do it 100 percent correctly, what if it spurs on a habit? Or I'm off the mark again.

Kids are going to learn about sex one way or another. Avoiding the topic only ensures that they are going to learn about it from sources which are less reliable and not necessarily interested in their personal well being.

 

Quote

I just think with the internet, children will look up stuff and that will just take that sublime innocence away, even at 11 or 12.

But kids already have access to the internet. And they are naturally curious, not just about their bodies but all sorts of things, even from a very young age. And the internet as it exists today means that they are almost always no more than a couple of clicks away from accessing porn. I remember very much ruing the day when our children became old enough that we had to put a password on our home PC in order to moderate their access when we weren't around.

 

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And heaven forbid if a bishop brings it up at their eight year old bishop interview. 

Yes. This is a very real concern.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Amulek

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Some of the experts generally recommend we should not use euphemisms because that softens what it really is, may make it look more attractive, etc; we should be describing it as killing oneself.  Even using “attempted suicide” distances it from the harsh reality of what they are doing and what it could lead to (not just death, but maiming or brain damage).

Others prefer “took their life” as “commit” or “killing” makes it sound like a crime or sin, which may decrease their desire to open up about any ideation.

Right now the professional standard is to say someone completed / attempted suicide, or suicided. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Right now the professional standard is to say someone completed / attempted suicide, or suicided. 

Good to know.  It’s been awhile since I checked in general rather than just depending on one site I felt expressed it effectively.  I expect more experience will lead to better info on what works best and what doesn’t.  I do think using euphemisms plays into the idea that talking about suicide is taboo and instead of helping people feel more comfortable about the subject will cause they to feel more awkward.  I think that has happened with death in general as well as sex and other bodily functions.