Woman blames the church and not her ex-husband, for being abused by him

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

So true. I was regarded by others as the head of the family, but if I told my wife that she would laugh, because she knows better.

I saw a pair of coffee cups once. On one was a picture of a rooster proclaiming, "I rule the roost!" On the companion cup was a hen saying, "I rule the rooster!"

[JAHS]

29 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I saw a pair of coffee cups once. On one was a picture of a rooster proclaiming, "I rule the roost!" On the companion cup was a hen saying, "I rule the rooster!"

Then there's the old "The man is the head of the family, but the wife is the neck and can turn the head anyway she wants"

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

What you describe is wrong and he needs help to quit being a _______.    There are many of us who do not live up to our eternal potential in small and large ways that leave those who experience the worst of us struggling with the results.  I am so very sorry.   And I hope you tell him that behavior is absolutely wrong  and you can spend $200 (or $1000 if that is reasonable in your budget, whether he likes it or not --- maybe tell him you'll even pay it to him if he gets it done within a week?)

If you haven't read Bonds that make us Free"  by C. Terry Warner,  I'd consider doing it (hopeful with both of you reading it together  and discussing it).

Thanks rpn, I worried I came down a little harsh on him, since he's wonderful in many ways too. I will for sure get that book. He won't go in for couple's counseling so this he might do!

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

In a patriarchal culture, there will be those who misinterpret what it means to be the "head of the household." I have witnessed both ends of the spectrum. I would say that in my small corner of the Mormon world, most of the men that I know don't order their wives around. Unfortunately, it's the bad apples that get the headlines. A headline like "Husband does the dishes after dinner" isn't going to sell papers.

This has nothing to do with the woman’s complaints in the op. 
 

That said this article accurate demonstrates what was shown at home in my household growing up, and what I learned at church:

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/02/strengthening-the-patriarchal-order-in-the-home

 

Interestingly the church feels like its past teachings are bad enough for trigger warnings now apparently. First time I’ve seen that. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Then there's the old "The man is the head of the family, but the wife is the neck and can turn the head anyway she wants"

~ My Bg Fat Greek Wedding (2002)

[JAHS]

1 minute ago, Pyreaux said:

~ My Bg Fat Greek Wedding (2002)

Yep. That's where I got it from. Great movie. If anything hurts just spray Windex on it. 😄

[Calm]

5 hours ago, rpn said:

If you haven't read Bonds that make us Free"  by C. Terry Warner,

A very good recommendation. Have and love the book. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This has nothing to do with the woman’s complaints in the op. 
 

That said this article accurate demonstrates what was shown at home in my household growing up, and what I learned at church:

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/02/strengthening-the-patriarchal-order-in-the-home

 

Interestingly the church feels like its past teachings are bad enough for trigger warnings now apparently. First time I’ve seen that. 

That doesn’t seem like a trigger warning as much as an admittance that some things have changed to me and to seek out the current teachings. 

[MustardSeed]

We would be foolish to ignore the impact of historical teachings in the church on patriarchy and the inequity of the sexes.  If in the past 30 years not a word was spoken suppressing womens power to advocate for their own well-being and safety in the home, the undercurrent alone from historical oppression and cultural attitudes of society at large certainly didn’t help and in fact are still present obstacles for our chance at true and full partnership in leadership in the home, at church and in society.  
IMO, all ^^. 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

I saw a pair of coffee cups once. On one was a picture of a rooster proclaiming, "I rule the roost!" On the companion cup was a hen saying, "I rule the rooster!"

I hate Boomer humor.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I hate Boomer humor.

I highly dislike that particular strand of it.

[gopher]

I think any wife should be suspicious if her husband says he's spending 40 hours a week away from home with his calling in the church.  In this case, it sounds like he was really using that time to have affairs with other women. 

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, gopher said:

I think any wife should be suspicious if her husband says he's spending 40 hours a week away from home with his calling in the church.  In this case, it sounds like he was really using that time to have affairs with other women. 

True

[Analytics]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://news.yahoo.com/lifestyle/woman-domestically-abused-her-ex-041500159.html

The article goes on but I didn't want to paste the whole thing.

Thoughts? Is the church to blame for people doing things that the church teaches are sinful and wrong?

She doesn’t blame the Church for her ex doing what is “sinful and wrong.” She blames the Church for pushing a known sex-addict into a marriage with a naive girl and for counseling him to lie to his fiancé and then lie to his wife about his double life. She blames the Church for consistently giving her and her husband terrible advice, including advising them to get married in the first place.

Here is what I got out of the videos.

Jake was raised in the Church and was a true believer. He had some sort of serious sex addiction, addiction to some other things, maybe, and probably some sort of underlying compulsive or bipolar mental illness. By the time he was 17 (in the early 1990’s?) he was getting into a ton of trouble. He went to see his bishop, who told him to go to seminary, pray, read his scriptures, and go on a mission. He made a good faith effort to do all of that, but still couldn’t control himself. At some point after his mission he moves in with some chick for a few months. He is a serious, out of control carouser who also believes Mormonism and feels extraordinarily guilty. But he’s a true believer and regularly talks about all of this with his bishop. It’s a double life.   

After his mission, his EQ president knows about all of this and about how this otherwise true believer is out of control. The EQ president meets this really sweet, 19-year old virgin, and tells her that he is going to introduce her to her eternal husband. She says she’s already engaged to somebody else. The EQ president says break up with the other guy, he knows Jake is her true eternal companion. She feels like a character in Saturday’s Warrior who is meeting her destiny and goes on a blind date with Jake.

On their second date, Jake goes to second base with this 19-year old virgin and then feels really guilty and says they have to confess it to the bishop. He’s trying to get back on track and do it the right way. They go to the same bishop who he’s been confessing to for years. The bishop says they need to get married in the temple right away, otherwise they’ll commit the sin that is right behind murder and denying the holy ghost. Six weeks later, they are married in the temple.

A year after they are married, they go into see the Stake President. Jake says he wants a divorce. He doesn’t love her, isn’t attracted to her, and feels like he is going to explode. He’d already had multiple interviews with the stake president about this, but never told any of this to his wife. The stake president says whatever you do, don’t get a divorce; breaking temple covenants like that is on the list of sins with denying the holy ghost, murder, and sex before marriage. 

Over the next 20 or so years, Jake continues to live a double life. He feels guilty about it and talks to his bishops. But on their advice, never talks to his wife—if she knew the real Jake, that would end the marriage, and that would be bad. He is under a ton of pressure. One day he tells her on the phone he is going to go home and murder her. She is so scared she calls the bishop. The bishop tells her to pray and send him a cute selfie. That will fix it. 

Eventually after 20 years or so, Jake is figuring out that the Church isn’t giving him very good advice. He starts talking to his wife some more, and they both agree he needs professional help. They need help paying for it and turn to the Church. Their request for professional help was appealed up to the first presidency, and was denied. The Church hierarchy told them not to see a professional, because the professional would likely recommend they break their temple covenants and get a divorce. 

Both her and her ex husband are to blame for their own decisions. Sure. She doesn’t deny that. But some of the absolute worst decisions they made and that they are responsible include following the Church’s advice about how to deal with his issues. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Analytics

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

40 hours of his life?

If you listen carefully, she says “ the callings that sucked 4 to 8 hours a week”

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I think any wife should be suspicious if her husband says he's spending 40 hours a week away from home with his calling in the church.  In this case, it sounds like he was really using that time to have affairs with other women. 

She actually appears to say 4-8 hours per week. Maybe you all should actually listen to what she says instead of reacting to a straw man caricature?

[Analytics]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you listen carefully, she says “ the callings that sucked 4 to 8 hours a week”

Four to eight is what I heard.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Analytics

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Analytics said:

She doesn’t blame the Church for her ex doing what is “sinful and wrong.” She blames the Church for pushing a known sex-addict into a marriage with a naive girl and for counseling him to lie to his fiancé and then lie to his wife about his double life. She blames the Church for consistently giving her and her husband terrible advice, including advising them to get married in the first place.

Here is what I got out of the videos.

Jake was raised in the Church and was a true believer. He had some sort of serious sex addiction, addiction to some other things, maybe, and probably some sort of underlying compulsive or bipolar mental illness. By the time he was 17 (in the early 1990’s?) he was getting into a ton of trouble. He went to see his bishop, who told him to go to seminary, pray, read his scriptures, and go on a mission. He made a good faith effort to do all of that, but still couldn’t control himself. At some point after his mission he moves in with some chick for a few months. He is a serious, out of control carouser who also believes Mormonism and feels extraordinarily guilty. But he’s a true believer and regularly talks about all of this with his bishop. It’s a double life.   

After his mission, his EQ president knows about all of this and about how this otherwise true believer is out of control. The EQ president meets this really sweet, 19-year old virgin, and tells her that he is going to introduce her to her eternal husband. She says she’s already engaged to somebody else. The EQ president says break up with the other guy, he knows Jake is her true eternal companion. She feels like a character in Saturday’s Warrior who is meeting her destiny and goes on a blind date with Jake.

On their second date, Jake goes to second base with this 19-year old virgin and then feels really guilty and says they have to confess it to the bishop. He’s trying to get back on track and do it the right way. They go to the same bishop who he’s been confessing to for years. The bishop says they need to get married in the temple right away, otherwise they’ll commit the sin that is right behind murder and denying the holy ghost. Six weeks later, they are married in the temple.

A year after they are married, they go into see the Stake President. Jake says he wants a divorce. He doesn’t love her, isn’t attracted to her, and feels like he is going to explode. He’d already had multiple interviews with the stake president about this, but never told any of this to his wife. The stake president says whatever you do, don’t get a divorce; breaking temple covenants like that is on the list of sins with denying the holy ghost, murder, and sex before marriage. 

Over the next 20 or so years, Jake continues to live a double life. He feels guilty about it and talks to his bishops. But on their advice, never talks to his wife—if she knew the real Jake, that would end the marriage, and that would be bad. He is under a ton of pressure. One day he tells her on the phone he is going to go home and murder her. She is so scared she calls the bishop. The bishop tells her to pray and send him a cute selfie. That will fix it. 

Eventually after 20 years or so, Jake is figuring out that the Church isn’t giving him very good advice. He starts talking to his wife some more, and they both agree he needs professional help. They need help paying for it and turn to the Church. Their request for professional help was appealed up to the first presidency, and was denied. The Church hierarchy told them not to see a professional, because the professional would likely recommend they break their temple covenants and get a divorce. 

Both her and her ex husband are to blame for their own decisions. Sure. She doesn’t deny that. But some of the absolute worst decisions they made and that they are responsible include following the Church’s advice about how to deal with his issues. 

I feel so much compassion for her, and I don’t doubt the generalities of her story. It sounds like they were a couple priesthood leaders who really stepped out of bounds. At the same time, we are only getting one side of the story, and I hesitate to accept it completely. Not because I think anyone is lying specifically (though I think that ex-husband easily could be about some things) but just because when we are hurting and we believe it is caused by other people’s negligence, it can be really hard to judge their actions accurately, or not make incorrect assumptions about motivation.

Especially since it sounds like the only reason she knows what her ex-husband‘s leaders were telling him was from her ex-husband. And he doesn’t sound like a very trustworthy source.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She actually appears to say 4-8 hours per week. Maybe you all should actually listen to what she says instead of reacting to a straw man caricature?

They are reacting to a quote from the article—

“I see a man that I lived with for 24 years, he was under constant stress, who always acted like he was about to explode because he was dying under the five kids and the callings that sucked 40 hours of his life,” Gage said

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They are reacting to a quote from the article—

“I see a man that I lived with for 24 years, he was under constant stress, who always acted like he was about to explode because he was dying under the five kids and the callings that sucked 40 hours of his life,” Gage said

Which is a misquote. Her actual words are very accessible here and only require a few minutes of listening. The article does a terrible job of summarizing what she says. 
 

ETA: there is no indication anywhere the article’s author ever directly spoke to the woman. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Amulek]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

Quote

“Jake’s family for generations just like my family thought that their priest leaders, and going to the temple, and obeying the covenants and saying our prayers was a cure for everything," Gage explained, discussing how she continued facing abuse until they left the LDS church.

Thoughts? Is the church to blame for people doing things that the church teaches are sinful and wrong?

I'm not on any of the Twitters so I only saw the video in the original article and the one that @SeekingUnderstanding posted later - though that one seemed to cut off for me, so I may have missed some of it as well.

From the bit I saw though, it sounds like she is still making excuses for her abuser - only now she places the bulk of the blame on the church's doorstep instead of with her ex-husband where it belongs.

That doesn't really work for me. Her ex- was responsible for his behavior. Period. Full stop. The church doesn't encourage its members to abuse their spouses, sleep around, etc., so when people engage in those behaviors - that's on them. The church didn't cause any of that to happen. Also, in the video I watched, she said that the abuse didn't actually stop after leaving the church, so there's that.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just now, Amulek said:

The church doesn't encourage its members to abuse their spouses, sleep around, etc.,

But (if this woman is to be believed), the church* encouraged this young woman to marry a man with sex addictive behaviors that were known to the church but not the woman. The church discouraged disclosure of these issues. When early in the marriage, a divorce was sought by the husband, the church threatened the husband with eternal damnation, if he broke his covenants. There is more. Read analytics summary above. 
 

*Church = those duly ordained to act as representatives on its behalf. 

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

She doesn’t blame the Church for her ex doing what is “sinful and wrong.” She blames the Church for pushing a known sex-addict into a marriage with a naive girl and for counseling him to lie to his fiancé and then lie to his wife about his double life. She blames the Church for consistently giving her and her husband terrible advice, including advising them to get married in the first place.

Here is what I got out of the videos.

Jake was raised in the Church and was a true believer. He had some sort of serious sex addiction, addiction to some other things, maybe, and probably some sort of underlying compulsive or bipolar mental illness. By the time he was 17 (in the early 1990’s?) he was getting into a ton of trouble. He went to see his bishop, who told him to go to seminary, pray, read his scriptures, and go on a mission. He made a good faith effort to do all of that, but still couldn’t control himself. At some point after his mission he moves in with some chick for a few months. He is a serious, out of control carouser who also believes Mormonism and feels extraordinarily guilty. But he’s a true believer and regularly talks about all of this with his bishop. It’s a double life.   

After his mission, his EQ president knows about all of this and about how this otherwise true believer is out of control. The EQ president meets this really sweet, 19-year old virgin, and tells her that he is going to introduce her to her eternal husband. She says she’s already engaged to somebody else. The EQ president says break up with the other guy, he knows Jake is her true eternal companion. She feels like a character in Saturday’s Warrior who is meeting her destiny and goes on a blind date with Jake.

On their second date, Jake goes to second base with this 19-year old virgin and then feels really guilty and says they have to confess it to the bishop. He’s trying to get back on track and do it the right way. They go to the same bishop who he’s been confessing to for years. The bishop says they need to get married in the temple right away, otherwise they’ll commit the sin that is right behind murder and denying the holy ghost. Six weeks later, they are married in the temple.

A year after they are married, they go into see the Stake President. Jake says he wants a divorce. He doesn’t love her, isn’t attracted to her, and feels like he is going to explode. He’d already had multiple interviews with the stake president about this, but never told any of this to his wife. The stake president says whatever you do, don’t get a divorce; breaking temple covenants like that is on the list of sins with denying the holy ghost, murder, and sex before marriage. 

Over the next 20 or so years, Jake continues to live a double life. He feels guilty about it and talks to his bishops. But on their advice, never talks to his wife—if she knew the real Jake, that would end the marriage, and that would be bad. He is under a ton of pressure. One day he tells her on the phone he is going to go home and murder her. She is so scared she calls the bishop. The bishop tells her to pray and send him a cute selfie. That will fix it. 

Eventually after 20 years or so, Jake is figuring out that the Church isn’t giving him very good advice. He starts talking to his wife some more, and they both agree he needs professional help. They need help paying for it and turn to the Church. Their request for professional help was appealed up to the first presidency, and was denied. The Church hierarchy told them not to see a professional, because the professional would likely recommend they break their temple covenants and get a divorce. 

Both her and her ex husband are to blame for their own decisions. Sure. She doesn’t deny that. But some of the absolute worst decisions they made and that they are responsible include following the Church’s advice about how to deal with his issues. 

Good synopsis! Wow, the church leader that told her to break up with her fiance to marry Jake, is crazy. I hope the church creates some serious control over what the leaders can do to change lives for the worst here. 

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Which is a misquote. Her actual words are very accessible here and only require a few minutes of listening. The article does a terrible job of summarizing what she says. 
 

ETA: there is no indication anywhere the article’s author ever directly spoke to the woman. 

I’m not trying to argue anything different. I’m just saying that they’re not making it up, as it is a quote from the article.

And since Yahoo isn’t known for spinning things in favor of the church I think most who read the article are assuming it’s accurate.  Especially those like myself who aren’t on TikTok, and never watched those things.

I agree it is important to hear it from her own words though. 

[Analytics]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I feel so much compassion for her, and I don’t doubt the generalities of her story. It sounds like they were a couple priesthood leaders who really stepped out of bounds. At the same time, we are only getting one side of the story, and I hesitate to accept it completely. Not because I think anyone is lying specifically (though I think that ex-husband easily could be about some things) but just because when we are hurting and we believe it is caused by other people’s negligence, it can be really hard to judge their actions accurately, or not make incorrect assumptions about motivation.

Especially since it sounds like the only reason she knows what her ex-husband‘s leaders were telling him was from her ex-husband. And he doesn’t sound like a very trustworthy source.

That is a fair point. One of the key facts here is how much the bishops really knew about Jake's double life. Jake said he'd confessed to them, but did he really?

I suspect he really did. He practically had the bishop's number of speed dial when he wanted to confess about the second date. It seems clear he really believed the Church, but really couldn't control himself. Confessing his repeated sins is consistent with that.

I have my own personal experience with priesthood leaders disfellowshipping people for sexual sins and then telling them to lie about it ever happening to their future spouses, so that part seems quite plausible to me.

And even if the bishop thought Jake was the purist human being to walk the planet now that Joseph Smith is dead, why would he possibly endorse them getting married 6 weeks after they met? The idea that marrying a stranger is a good gambit to avoid the sin of sex before marriage is messed up.