If we are obese do our spirits look obese also?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I don't care as long as I can do high kicks. 

I want to fit, fit, fit and be rid of my claustrophobia and go spelunking and rid of my fear of heights so I can do rock climbing like I did as a kid, only more so. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If our physical bodies were fashioned after our spiritual likeness, and if our spirits were designed with our physical bodies in mind (the end goal/result/creation) then our spirits do indeed take into account physical properties to some extent.  Do spirits need “eyes” to see?  Or do spirits simply have eyes because that’s what our physical bodies look like?  Sight itself is a physiological function.  What does “sight” even mean without a body?  Do our spirits have internal organs that match our bodies, or just external “organs” (for lack of a better word” like our eyes?   I don’t know if we have any idea what the spectrum of “heavenly perfection” looks like.  Clearly we are not all going to look alike.
 

Same problem here.  You have to consider the other side of the coin.  If being fit is also a condition that results from proper food intake and metabolization, why would being “fit” exist in a real where food nor metabolism is a factor?

The reasonI believe that there won’t be obese spirits is not because obesity is a physical:mortal trait.  On the contrary, I believe our spirits were created with our physical traits in mind.  Physicality was the end game.   So, it only makes sense to me that there won’t be obesity because that is not the prime physical state of health/well-being/function.   I think our best guess of how our spirits will look will be based on how our physical bodies look in their prime state of health/function - and thus we should consider metabolism, food consumption, and other physical attributes.   

From my perspective, we both are saying essentially the same thing, or at least it doesn’t conflict . You apparently don’t think so, and it seems I’m unable to change your mind, so I’m inclined to give up trying. 
 

You get the last word if you want it. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Ipod Touch]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve never bought into the assumption that we appear in the resurrection exactly as we do in mortality. There are too many blemishes and imperfections that I hope and expect will be eliminated. 

In the Resurrection, @Scott Lloyd won't be a complete douche. 

I eagerly await that day.

Stop it.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Skylla
Insults

[Ipod Touch]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You get the last word if you want it. 

 

Insults deleted.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Skylla

[CA Steve]

4 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

In the Resurrection, @Scott Lloyd won't be a complete douche. 

I eagerly await that day.

Stop it.

If our faults and differences, physical, emotional, social, go away in the resurrection, what is left to make life interesting? If Scott were to suddenly change his behavior, would he still be Scott? This reminds me of the actress from the movie Dirty Dancing, Jennifer Grey who underwent plastic surgery to improve her looks and killed her career for a while because no one knew who she was after the surgery.

We keep wanting to apply finite human wants and needs to our ideas of what eternal beings would want when we really just are like toddlers in a sand box arguing about Barbies and Tonka trucks.

[teddyaware]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

We have been told that we have adult spirits in our bodies regardless of how old we are. If we are obese for most of our life do our spirits look obese also?  
I know some people who were obese as children and throughout their entire life. There was never a moment in their life when they were not obese. Does that mean their spirits look obese also?
Joseph Fielding Smith said "each body will come forth the same stature as when laid in the earth" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 2 vols.(Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1953, 2:110)
Does this mean If we are obese when we die and are buried will we be obese when resurrected or when we are exalted?
Perhaps such physical characteristics won't matter to us any more by then.
 

Here’s the answer to your question…

Edited September 5, 2022 by teddyaware

[CV75]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

If that's true then it's good news for people who were obese since they were babies, but when they are resurrected they might not look at all like the people they were during life. 

I'm not sure if it is a matter of "looks" but of the Lord's design of how our bodies function, serve, accomplish His work and glory. Alma called this the "perfect form" and "proper frame" (Alma 11:43-44). This is done so that we can be "arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to [our] works, whether they be good or whether they be evil."

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

From my perspective, we both are saying essentially the same thing, or at least it doesn’t conflict . You apparently don’t think so, and it seems I’m unable to change your mind, so I’m inclined to give up trying. 
 

You get the last word if you want it. 

Yes, we are coming to the same conclusion but for different reasons, if I understand you correctly.  I agree that it is nothing worth arguing further over, we are all just guessing. 

[Nofear]

I had a somewhat different thought of late. Three ideas that form my thinking:

1. I quite imagine that on different planets the morphology of our species probably evolved in variant ways, especially as necessary to adapt to the unique conditions of that planet (e.g. a planet around a different star could have bodies that need different UV mitigation, eyes that evolve to see slightly different wavelengths, heights based on gravity, etc.).

2. The probability that our Heavenly Father has the ethnic phenotype of a white Caucasian male based on the planet his physical body evolved on seems pretty dang small.

3. In our resurrected state, we will have total mastery over the biological technology that we call our physical body.

Put those ideas together and I quite imagine that we will be able to make adjustments from time to time. Maybe our state at death will be the starting point but we'll have the technology to change things as we choose. Do I want to be 2 inches taller or shorter? Sure. Do I want a deeper "tan"? Sure. Different eye or hair color? Sure. Do I want two or three joints in my little toe? I can change it. Do I want to add/remove the vestigial tendons that allow me to wiggle my ears? Sure. "Six pack" of belly muscles. Sure. We can make those changes and even though our exterior appearance may change we'll be able to identify individuals by something that is far more deep than external appearances.

I also suspect that angels or God actively adapt their form to be convenient/acceptable to the individual seeing them. For example, Joseph described the appearance of God in ways that are familiar to his cultural upbringing and that is because God chose to appear that way irrespective of the "natural" appearance that arose from their mortal state on this or another planet. If prophets in Asia saw angels or deity, they probably saw those with an appearances with Asiatic phenotype. Prophets from Africa? They'd see angels with African appearance. Native American prophets? Native American appearance. Etc.

If I were to imagine my Heavenly Father, do I think of him as a white, adult male? Sure. But I have no problem with Him being different in appearance to different individuals. With the biological mastery exalted beings have over their physical bodies, changes will be easy and convenient as per the need and/or whim.

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The statement he quoted was from Joseph Fielding Smith, not Joseph Smith. 
 

But I agree with your thoughts. 

Right, but I was just trying to say that Joseph Fielding Smith was probably basing what he said on what Joseph Smith Jr. taught, and Joseph Smith Jr.'s statement included a little more context to the meaning of the word "stature".

[2BizE]

Not sure on this one….what I do know is all men will have thick white hair and beards and resemble Santa Claus. I’ve seen the painting did the first vision and that is what we will all look like.

[Thinking]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There are too many blemishes and imperfections that I hope and expect will be eliminated. 

"Cause all of me loves all of you. Love your curves and all your edges, all your perfect imperfections." (John Legend, "All of Me")

 

[Thinking]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There are too many blemishes and imperfections that I hope and expect will be eliminated. 

"Cause all of me loves all of you. Love your curves and all your edges, all your perfect imperfections." (John Legend, "All of Me")

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Right, but I was just trying to say that Joseph Fielding Smith was probably basing what he said on what Joseph Smith Jr. taught, and Joseph Smith Jr.'s statement included a little more context to the meaning of the word "stature".

OK, got it. 

[Chum]

18 hours ago, pogi said:

Our ugliness is a direct result of our pre-mortal valiance. 

Assuming I'm grokking this correctly: I'm not big on the premise that pain in Earthly life is justice for preexisting transgressions. I didn't think we did that notion.

18 hours ago, pogi said:

Don’t be confused like my dad though…beauty is the curse.

Ain't that the truth. Whatever extraordinarily attractive women might get, men make sure they pay a ceaseless cost for it.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Chum said:

Assuming I'm grokking this correctly: I'm not big on the premise that pain in Earthly life is justice for preexisting transgressions. I didn't think we did that notion.

I agree.  It was said tongue in cheek. 

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, Nofear said:

I had a somewhat different thought of late. Three ideas that form my thinking:

1. I quite imagine that on different planets the morphology of our species probably evolved in variant ways, especially as necessary to adapt to the unique conditions of that planet (e.g. a planet around a different star could have bodies that need different UV mitigation, eyes that evolve to see slightly different wavelengths, heights based on gravity, etc.).

2. The probability that our Heavenly Father has the ethnic phenotype of a white Caucasian male based on the planet his physical body evolved on seems pretty dang small.

3. In our resurrected state, we will have total mastery over the biological technology that we call our physical body.

Put those ideas together and I quite imagine that we will be able to make adjustments from time to time. Maybe our state at death will be the starting point but we'll have the technology to change things as we choose. Do I want to be 2 inches taller or shorter? Sure. Do I want a deeper "tan"? Sure. Different eye or hair color? Sure. Do I want two or three joints in my little toe? I can change it. Do I want to add/remove the vestigial tendons that allow me to wiggle my ears? Sure. "Six pack" of belly muscles. Sure. We can make those changes and even though our exterior appearance may change we'll be able to identify individuals by something that is far more deep than external appearances.

I also suspect that angels or God actively adapt their form to be convenient/acceptable to the individual seeing them. For example, Joseph described the appearance of God in ways that are familiar to his cultural upbringing and that is because God chose to appear that way irrespective of the "natural" appearance that arose from their mortal state on this or another planet. If prophets in Asia saw angels or deity, they probably saw those with an appearances with Asiatic phenotype. Prophets from Africa? They'd see angels with African appearance. Native American prophets? Native American appearance. Etc.

If I were to imagine my Heavenly Father, do I think of him as a white, adult male? Sure. But I have no problem with Him being different in appearance to different individuals. With the biological mastery exalted beings have over their physical bodies, changes will be easy and convenient as per the need and/or whim.

"I also suspect that angels or God actively adapt their form to be convenient/acceptable to the individual seeing them."

Kind of Like:

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by JAHS

[carbon dioxide]

My goal is to be so fat at the resurrection that I have to be placed on and off my throne with a celestial fork lift.

[rodheadlee]

On 9/4/2022 at 3:40 PM, jkwilliams said:

Apparently my resurrected body will just look old and tired. 

I doubt it. We will be at our best. 

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I doubt it. We will be at our best. 

What if old and tired is my best? Although the other day I got carded buying beer. Normally they just press the “acknowledge over 50” button, but the cashier said, “You ain’t over 50. No way!”

I’m 57, so it made me happy. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by jkwilliams

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

What if old and tired is my best? Although the other day I got carded buying beer. Normally they just press the “acknowledge over 50” button, but the cashier said, “You ain’t over 50. No way!”

I’m 57, so it made me happy. 

I wasn't laughing at you I was laughing with you. I'm 68 and falling apart fast. When I was 33 I was a rock. I'd love to have that body back.

[Kevin Christensen]

Regarding appearances, in my "Nigh unto Death" essay, I had this:

Quote

Joseph Smith often taught that God adapted himself to our capacity to understand.43 For example, during a 1909 NDE an American Catholic priest met his father "looking exactly as he had in the last few years of his life," wearing the "last suit of clothes he had owned."44 Father Tucker wrote, "I knew that the clothes Father wore were assumed because they were familiar to me, so that I might feel no strangeness in seeing him, and that to some lesser extent, his appearance was assumed also."45

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol2/iss1/2/

The 1909 Story I quoted from a journal article by an LDS researcher closely resembled two other accounts I found in other NDE studies.  Duane Crowther, Life Everlasting (Salt Lake City:
Bookcraft, 1965), 81, and Wilson, The After Death Experience, 155.

This kind of experience, for me gives a context for dealing with the controversial statement from the transcripts (not recordings, or shorthand) of the King Follet Discourse, about spirits appearing forever at the age they died, which is in serious conflict with Alma's express teaching about resurrection involving a "proper and perfect frame" (Alma 40:23) rather than whatever random chance bestows as your eternal fate. So I wrote this in a footnote: 

Quote

This kind of experience may account for Joseph Smith's controversial impression (reported in the King Follet sermon) that we'd resurrect at the age we died.
(Remember that Joseph reported seeing Alvin in heaven.) If so, this gives Joseph's controversial and questionable idea an experimental, rather than
philosophical, basis. Perhaps on this minor interpretive point, he assumed more than the experience justified.

One thing we ought to keep in mind is Hugh Nibley's "Gas-law of learning." "Any amount of knowledge will expand to fill any intellectual void, no matter how large."

We don't know everything.  Stand alone speculation is not part of what Jesus described as the "sure foundation."

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited September 7, 2022 by Kevin Christensen

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

I wasn't laughing at you I was laughing with you. I'm 68 and falling apart fast. When I was 33 I was a rock. I'd love to have that body back.

I know. I wasn't taking offense at all, just joking back that maybe this is the best I'm going to get. I know the "falling apart fast" stage will come, but right now I'm in pretty good health.

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, Jim Dandy said:

It's fun to wonder about such things.  What did our spirits look like before they inhabited a mortal body?  What do they look like now? 

Color:  Is the spirit of a person with black skin black?  Or is the spirit of a person with brown skin brown?  is the spirit of a person with "white" skin a tanned or untanned shade of "white"? 

Size:  Is the spirit of a newborn mortal baby the size as that baby body or the size of an adult version of that baby? 

Hair length:  there shall not an hair of your head perish?  Is all of our hair going to be restored when we are resurrected?  What length will it be?  Will we always need to keep our hair cut to the length we desire, or will it stop growing without falling out?

I often wonder what I will look like after I have been resurrected.  I hope I will still look a lot like how I look now. 

Jesus said:
"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh." (Ether 3:15-16)

So if Jesus can be an example then how we look now is how our spirits look.

Many church leaders agree that we are born into this mortal life with mature adult spirits that will look the way we will appear when grown to adults.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said:
“We were all mature spirits before we were born; and the bodies of little children will grow after the resurrection to the full stature of the spirit,” (Gospel Doctrine, pp. 455-56.)

In other words our infant physical bodies will have to grow and catch up to match the size of our spirits.

President Joseph F. Smith said:
"All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children (Gospel Principles, Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World)

Bruce R. McConkie:
"A child is an adult spirit in a newly born body, a body capable of growing and maturing according to the providences of Him whose spirit children we all are." (The Salvation of little children, 1977)

Jesus was a full grown spirit when he appeared to the brother of Jared before being born to Mary: "And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood;" (Ether 3: 6-9)

I once heard President Spencer W. Kimball say that the reason why children wiggle around so much during church is because of those adult spirits trying to fit inside those little bodies. 🙂

 

[manol]

On 9/4/2022 at 8:01 PM, pogi said:

I don’t have evidence, but I suspect there will be a spiritual component to identifying others which goes beyond physical characteristics. 

Agreed.

I think we will recognize by spirit with at least as much clarity as we now recognize by physical appearance. 

Not that near-death experiences tell us what happens very far into the afterlife, but when this guy was nine years old he had a near-death experience which included at least one episode of recognition by spirit rather than by visual.  The link should be cued up to start about 30 seconds before that part, just so you get a little bit of context first:

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by manol