A Simple Question on God's One True Church

[Tacenda]

On 8/12/2022 at 4:08 PM, MrShorty said:

It is an interesting question. My answers tend to lead into much hated universalist paths. However the details work out, it seems that salvation and exaltation do not depend on people actually finding and joining the one true church. I believe that God knows how to get people back to Him through a wide variety of life experiences. Somedays, I might even go so far as to say that our claims to being the one true church is not a very meaningful claim.

I wonder if the church is like this quote below and also, one day I need to read this book, "The Five Levels of Attachment: Toltec Wisdom for the Modern World".

"A totalist group tells you how to live, think, and behave, what choices to make, what to read, how to raise your family, who to marry, how you spend your time, what to wear, what to eat, and what hobbies to take up. More importantly, a totalist group frames nearly every experience and piece of information you come across. The more of these areas that are affected by the group, the more totalist the group is. It turns your mind into a very sturdy house of cards, where each part of the building is contingent upon the other parts remaining exactly in place. You can't pull out any single card without the whole thing falling down, so you are highly motivated to maintain each element of the belief system at the cost of all else. The survival of your identity is at stake.” Luna Lindsey

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So what I’m getting in feed back is that most here agree with my premise. That if these 2,000 some odd randomly selected truth seekers endeavored to find the one true church, most if not all would not find the lds church as that  church. 
 

Interesting isn’t it that sincere truth seekers would not find Mormonism as the one truth church on earth. 

What I'm getting in feedback is that most think your proposed experiment is fatally flawed, in that it is not capable of producing a valid result.  

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So what I’m getting in feed back is that most here agree with my premise. That if these 2,000 some odd randomly selected truth seekers endeavored to find the one true church, most if not all would not find the lds church as that  church. 
 

Interesting isn’t it that sincere truth seekers would not find Mormonism as the one truth church on earth. 

Not particularly interesting. You appear to be under the misapprehension that earth life is intended to be fair and give everyone a specific chance for exaltation through the gospel. I cannot think of any period of history except maybe right after the Fall of Adam where this was true. Why should we be surprised it is not true now?

[DT_]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not particularly interesting. You appear to be under the misapprehension that earth life is intended to be fair and give everyone a specific chance for exaltation through the gospel. I cannot think of any period of history except maybe right after the Fall of Adam where this was true. Why should we be surprised it is not true now?

4th Nephi?

The Scriptures describe periods of exponential success in missionary work. The Church in the 19th century enjoyed tremendous success in converting many people. Do you think the Church's growth will accelerate again someday?

Edited August 14, 2022 by DT_

[OGHoosier]

10 minutes ago, DT_ said:

4th Nephi?

The Scriptures describe periods of exponential success in missionary work. The Church in the 19th century enjoyed tremendous success in converting many people. Do you think the Church's growth will accelerate again someday?

Depends on the region. I'd say the light is leaving Western Europe and North America and I don't know if it will ever be back. But I am no fortuneteller.

[manol]

25 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Depends on the region. I'd say the light is leaving Western Europe and North America and I don't know if it will ever be back. But I am no fortuneteller.

I think what we see happening depends on the lens we look through.

Formal religious affiliation (and presumably active participation) seems to be on the decline in the West, with the LDS Church apparently holding its own better than most. 

At the same time, my understanding is that there is an increase in the percentage who describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious", or words to that effect.

Non-religious indicators of morality (violent crime, war, tolerance, levels of cruelty and injustice we are comfortable with) seem to show general progress relative to where we were a century ago.  

I realize that the decline in religious participation (and specifically in growth and/or activity rates for the LDS Church) in the West may LOOK like "the light is leaving", but perhaps another way of seeing it might be this:  There is enough leaven in the bread for the dough to keep rising.

[OGHoosier]

28 minutes ago, manol said:

I realize that the decline in religious participation (and specifically in growth and/or activity rates for the LDS Church) in the West may LOOK like "the light is leaving", but perhaps another way of seeing it might be this:  There is enough leaven in the bread for the dough to keep rising.

It would be if "the dough keeps rising" were constrained to improvements in the secular indicators of morality which you indicate. I do not believe that is the case. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, DT_ said:

4th Nephi?

The Scriptures describe periods of exponential success in missionary work. The Church in the 19th century enjoyed tremendous success in converting many people. Do you think the Church's growth will accelerate again someday?

There are localized areas where the gospel is often pervasive like the Nephites in 4th Nephi, City of Enoch, City of Melchizedek, Israel in some periods, Utah and Idaho now, probably some more. I was thinking large global scale everyone has the opportunity everywhere when I said you had to go back to Adam. That hasn’t happened in a long time. If you are a global flood believer it would be moved to Noah I guess.

[DT_]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Depends on the region. I'd say the light is leaving Western Europe and North America and I don't know if it will ever be back. But I am no fortuneteller.

Interesting. You would expect the light is stronger in the US because the majority of General Authorities are white US citizens who are very educated. Do you think General Authorities will someday be more diverse?  Why do you think the Church is growing faster in Africa?    

[OGHoosier]

6 minutes ago, DT_ said:

You would expect the light is stronger in the US because the majority of General Authorities are white US citizens who are very educated.

Why would you expect this? 

7 minutes ago, DT_ said:

Do you think General Authorities will someday be more diverse?

Probably. 

7 minutes ago, DT_ said:

Why do you think the Church is growing faster in Africa?    

Religious identification does better among more humble populations. Hypotheses without end have been proposed as to why this is. 

I will say that there is no society more inclined to view itself (and its members) in a Messianic light than that of Western Europe and its diaspora. Why worship God when you are part of It? 

At the risk of getting political...this does not appear to be going very well. 

[DT_]

Just now, OGHoosier said:

Religious identification does better among more humble populations. Hypotheses without end have been proposed as to why this is.

I completely agree, but that's not the case with General Authorities. Why do you think God isn't calling many humble (economically) members to serve as General Authorities? In the 1st century, all the original apostles were illiterate, today most General Authorities have at least a Bachelor's degree. I'm confused because the Church enjoys a faster growth rate in humble populations, yet General Authorities aren't very representative of humble regions.

 

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Depends on the region. I'd say the light is leaving Western Europe and North America and I don't know if it will ever be back. But I am no fortuneteller.

I think that if we as a church accept a post modern view of truth, we could have a new renaissance for religion.  Visions become real, personal revelation commonplace, scriptural histories and worries about "what really happened" become unknowable and therefore irrelevant, no one mixes science and religion, no evolution problems, no ex nihilo creation, and on and on.

Kids already get this, Oprah is now their false prophet.

Bob Dylan:

"The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'"

Edited August 15, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Fair Dinkum]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:19 AM, bluebell said:

What I'm getting in feedback is that most think your proposed experiment is fatally flawed, in that it is not capable of producing a valid result.  

All I’m suggesting is the a random sample of human truth seekers would not settle on Mormonism as that truth. That’s all.  It’s all conjecture but given the complexity of the human family…I feel comfortable with that conclusion 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Maybe they just need to use Google?

I just searched 'which is the true church?'. The sixth result (and the first one linked to an actual faith group) was from churchofjesuschrist.org.

But yeah, I agree that it's weird. I mean, when God Himself was on the earth preaching and publicly performing miracles, absolutely everyone believed and followed Him.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Maybe they just need to use Google?

I just searched 'which is the true church?'. The sixth result (and the first one linked to an actual faith group) was from churchofjesuschrist.org.

But yeah, I agree that it's weird. I mean, when God Himself was on the earth preaching and publicly performing miracles, absolutely everyone believed and followed Him.

 

Bart Erhman often points out to his evangelical audiences that growth of Christianity after Christ is approximately the same as the growth of the “Mormon” church (maybe less so over the last decade or two). 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Bart Erhman often points out to his evangelical audiences that growth of Christianity after Christ is approximately the same as the growth of the “Mormon” church (maybe less so over the last decade or two). 

Interesting.  Have a quote by chance?

added:  found one

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-rate-of-christian-growth/

He uses the Rodney Stark numbers, so likely less so lately.

Quote

It’s not a matter of miracle necessarily.  And you don’t need massive conversions at any point.   Assuming a steady rate of grown, where every ten years each ten Christians manage to convert, between them, only four more people to the faith, then you get to 6,000,000.   Stark is a bit more precise.  He concludes that you need a rate of grown of 43% per decade.

And for him, as a sociologist of modern religion, this is not at all implausible.  On the contrary, it’s both believable and highly interesting.   As it turns out, it is the rate of growth of the Mormon church from the time of its founding until today.

It is not a matter of miracles; it’s a matter of steady growth, and it can be accounted for by an exponential curve over time.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Maybe they just need to use Google?

I just searched 'which is the true church?'. The sixth result (and the first one linked to an actual faith group) was from churchofjesuschrist.org.

But yeah, I agree that it's weird. I mean, when God Himself was on the earth preaching and publicly performing miracles, absolutely everyone believed and followed Him.

 

Because they could see it with their own eyes, yet subjectively, in their hearts as well. But still every follower had their own experience 

Now because we see it with our hearts, and we still have the experience, we think it cannot be "real".

That's how the scientific revolution and alleged "Enlightenment" have robbed us of the Spirit.

But it's coming back by again re-asserting the importance of emotion in giving one purpose in life. How else could one know their best personal path?

For every action there is a reaction, and it is just beginning.  We have the tools now for global communication

 

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/14/2022 at 2:20 PM, DT_ said:

4th Nephi?

The Scriptures describe periods of exponential success in missionary work. The Church in the 19th century enjoyed tremendous success in converting many people. Do you think the Church's growth will accelerate again someday?

Yes.  Before and during the Millennium.

[blackstrap]

27 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Before and during the Millennium

Yes, but even then after nearly 1000 years of  peace there will be a time when it all falls apart. I wonder what the trigger event or idea will be . 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Yes, but even then after nearly 1000 years of  peace there will be a time when it all falls apart. I wonder what the trigger event or idea will be . 

Something to do with self centeredness and arrogance, no doubt.

[InCognitus]

20 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Yes, but even then after nearly 1000 years of  peace there will be a time when it all falls apart. I wonder what the trigger event or idea will be . 

The Millennials will develop an entitled attitude, leading to.... wait, which 1000 years are you referring to?

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

All I’m suggesting is the a random sample of human truth seekers would not settle on Mormonism as that truth. That’s all.  It’s all conjecture but given the complexity of the human family…I feel comfortable with that conclusion 

In the OP you claimed that the point of your experiment was to:

“Find the Real True Church, if one really exists, on the earth.”

As many posters have pointed out, your experiment is not capable of providing valid results on the issue.

Edited August 16, 2022 by bluebell

[Navidad]

If I may, I would like to suggest that neither the growth or decline of religious affiliation is on a normal curve across Christianity in the West. The past few decades growth seems to be greatest among the Pentecostals, who are rapidly diversifying their faith to be more mainstream and intellectually stimulating. Curiously enough, Pentecostalism is also growing in the Borderlands and rural parts of Mexico, especially perhaps of interest to my LDS friends, among the Apostolic Pentecostals, a restorational group who don't believe in the trinity or creeds, but do believe in living apostles. The more Mainline (not necessarily mainstream) groups are declining the most rapidly. I believe that where I live, Apostolic Pentecostalism is a principle competitor (from a religious perspective) to the LDS church. It is much more mestizo-based and appeals more to the mestizo and indigenous population than do the "Anglo" faiths, coming to Mexico in a softer form of Anglo invasion (not my words). Both Mennonites and Mormons here are labelled as competitors (in a non-religious sense) for the mestizo for scarce resources. It has been that way since the 30s.

I remain dumbfounded (maybe just dumb) by the disparity in numbers between the latest Mexican census and the church's numbers for LDS affiliation here in Mexico. The church states 1,400,000 members and the census states 330,000 self-identified members. That is a huge gap. Since my religious population data wonk friend, James Dow passed away, I am not sure who to go to for an explanation. My LDS scholar friends simply apply the disparity to faults in the census data. That seems a bit too easy.

I hope you all don't mind my posting again. I experienced a bad fall in May and have not been able to be on the computer much, drive, or focus well over the past few months. I knocked out a number of teeth. Oral surgeries are a pain in the  . . . . . . mouth!  Best wishes to all.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Navidad

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

In the OP you claimed that the point of your experiment was to:

“Find the Real True Church, if one really exists, on the earth.”

As many posters have pointed out, your experiment is not capable of providing valid results on the issue.

Exactly...It's an experiment to prove a point.  Send a random sample size of truth seekers, large enough to reflect the population of the earth, out on a quest to find the one true church.  Given that quest, my question is how many would determine that the answer to that quest was Mormonism? 

The church is an quirky obscure regional organization masquerading as a world wide church.  It's active membership is shrinking throughout all of its international population centers with the exception of a few counties in Africa.  The chances that our sample group would determine that Mormonism is the answer to their quest, let alone find the church, is very remote at best.  The world is rejecting the church and so are its active members, who are abandoning the church in droves.

LDS stakes throughout the world are contracting or being downsized, wards are being combined or eliminated as are stakes. While the church is not going away any time soon, the stone cut without hands that was supposed to fill the whole earth, is losing steam and petering out.

I think everyone on this board knows that the church is in trouble.  While it will continue to dominate the intermountain region of America, in other educated first world populations throughout the world, it will continue to struggle to find any footing.  In the market place of religion, the world isn't buying what the church is selling.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If I may, I would like to suggest that neither the growth or decline of religious affiliation is on a normal curve across Christianity in the West. The past few decades growth seems to be greatest among the Pentecostals, who are rapidly diversifying their faith to be more mainstream and intellectually stimulating. Curiously enough, Pentecostalism is also growing in the Borderlands and rural parts of Mexico, especially perhaps of interest to my LDS friends, among the Apostolic Pentecostals, a restorational group who don't believe in the trinity or creeds, but do believe in living apostles. The more Mainline (not necessarily mainstream) groups are declining the most rapidly. I believe that where I live, Apostolic Pentecostalism is a principle competitor to the LDS church. It is much more mestizo-based and appeals more to the mestizo and indigenous population than do the "Anglo" faiths, coming to Mexico in a softer form of Anglo invasion (not my words). Both Mennonites and Mormons here are labelled as competitors for the mestizo for scarce resources. It has been that way since the 30s.

I remain dumbfounded (maybe just dumb) by the disparity in numbers between the latest Mexican census and the church's numbers for LDS affiliation here in Mexico. The church states 1,400,000 members and the census states 330,000 self-identified members. That is a huge gap. Since my religious population data wonk friend, James Dow passed away, I am not sure who to go to for an explanation. My LDS scholar friends simply apply the disparity to faults in the census data. That seems a bit too easy.

I hope you all don't mind my posting again. I experienced a bad fall in May and have not been able to be on the computer much, drive, or focus well over the past few months. I knocked out a number of teeth. Oral surgeries are a pain in the  . . . . . . mouth!  Best wishes to all.

I’m not dumbfounded by the disparity, as that’s not all that different from a lot of Latin American countries. In Bolivia, the activity rate among LDS is around 11%. When I was a missionary, we spent time tracking down church members on the records, and the vast majority weren’t attending, and a not-insignificant number hadn’t even realized they had joined the church.