A Simple Question on God's One True Church

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I believe you were born into a Latter-day Saint family correct?  Speculate for me the odds of you accepting the LDS Gospel has you not been born into it.  Most people are in a particular religion because they were born into it.

I never found it particularly difficult to be a member of the church. You can choose to have faith, make a commitment, and so on, but it doesn’t mean you’ll be happy. 

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Studies show that religious people have much higher levels of happiness and well-being in life than non-religious people.  They are more likely to have better health (especially if you are a Latter-day Saint or JW).  They are more likely to engage in other charities and community service.  They are more likely to be civically engaged with voting.   So you are not really considering all the risks of ditching religion.   

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/

I don't know if I would call it "doubt" as much as uncertainty.  I choose hope in uncertainty over doubt.   I recognize that there might be more to the elephant than I can perceive.  

It is a big commitment, but if the studies are accurate, it seems to pay off in dividends of happiness and well-being (which I personally value more than money).  Religious people are overall happier than no-religious people; and among religious people Latter-day Saints are overall more happy than other religious people.  We are the cream of the crop, it seems.  

https://religionnews.com/2015/07/02/5-reasons-why-mormons-are-happier-says-researcher/

Consider it an investment in happiness/wellbeing/purpose. 

I was literally crushed when I finally allowed myself to accept that the church I loved and had dedicated my life to wasn’t what it had claimed to be. There was great joy in the belief that the church was true. But now. I can honestly say. I’m happy and very content. It’s quit different than Mormonism joy but it is joy in knowing life is precious and needs to be lived to its fullest each and every day. And in that knowledge I am quite happy 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

In the past I thought I could make myself go to back to active participation in the church, but I’m terrified it would mean returning to the self-loathing I experienced. The thought of that makes my stomach hurt. 

I myself was once occupied with toxic shame and self-loathing.  I felt worse at church due to unhealthy self-beliefs and an unhealthy perspective of God, which I modeled after my parents dynamics with me (very common).  I wanted to run from it all, but in one last ditch effort I gave God another chance.   Long story short, I found the balm of Gilead.   I had a genuine change of heart through Christ and a fresh perspective of self and God.  I found grace where I thought there was only judgment/condemnation.  
The church and temple became a sanctuary for me.  

Perspective is everything.  It is interesting that if I left when I was tempted to, I would be singing a similar song to you.  I am not judging you for leaving or suggesting that your path isn’t right for you, but simply that by choosing a different path, I gained a different perspective about the church.
 

It doesn’t seem to work that way for everybody, for reasons and variables that I can’t know or understand, but it worked that way for me.  Statistically, it appears I am not alone in finding happiness and well-being in the church.  

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I was literally crushed when I finally allowed myself to accept that the church I loved and had dedicated my life to wasn’t what it had claimed to be. There was great joy in the belief that the church was true. But now. I can honestly say. I’m happy and very content. It’s quit different than Mormonism joy but it is joy in knowing life is precious and needs to be lived to its fullest each and every day. And in that knowledge I am quite happy 

I am happy for you, genuinely.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

I don't think being a Latter-day Saint is particularly difficult.  It's more a matter of faith, of individual commitment, self-determination, choice, etc.

I believe you were born into a Latter-day Saint family correct? 

Yes.

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Speculate for me the odds of you accepting the LDS Gospel has you not been born into it. 

Why?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Most people are in a particular religion because they were born into it.

But whether they stay in it is another question.  "Because they were born into it" is an ever-decreasing reason to stay.

Meanwhile, the Church has many converts who stick with it.

Again, I don't think being a Latter-day Saint is particularly difficult.  It's mostly a matter of choice.

Thanks,

-Smac

[DT_]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Studies show that religious people have much higher levels of happiness and well-being in life than non-religious people. 

Correlation is not causation. This doctor mentions the key to happiness at the beginning of the video.

 

3 hours ago, pogi said:

and among religious people Latter-day Saints are overall more happy than other religious people. 

Interesting, are the studies controlling for income and alcohol consumption? People who do not drink tend to be healthier.

3 hours ago, Calm said:

 I think it very important to avoid implying that we think we are better than others 

Do you think religious people are happier?

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Kevin: Quick question . . . what is your interpretation of the phrase in the verse you quoted, "the church collectively"? I have pondered on that for some years. It is an odd phrase if it refers to just one church, is it not? Thanks for your thoughts.

For me it means all Christian churches. I'm interested in Kevin's reply. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, DT_ said:

Do you think religious people are happier?

Yes, but there is a form of self-selection. If religion makes you miserable it is doubtful you will stick around. Religious people are happier because religion makes them happy.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, DT_ said:

Do you think religious people are happier?

The research suggests in general, yes, they are happier.  That could be for many things, including the community.  It could be feeling positive about working towards a higher, meaningful purpose, especially with others.  It could be more likely to have a healthier lifestyle due to a faith’s standard in many cases.  It could be more likely to be married (iirc, religious have higher rates of marriage and marriage is correlated to greater happiness).  It could be from blessings from God.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but there is a form of self-selection. If religion makes you miserable it is doubtful you will stick around. Religious people are happier because religion makes them happy.

If you had asked me when I was active in the church, I would have said I was happy. For me, I spent a lot of effort telling myself I was happy, sharing my testimony that I was happy. But all the while I was dealing with debilitating depression. I'm not saying everyone is like I am. 

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

For me it means all Christian churches. I'm interested in Kevin's reply. 

Ditto and Ditto. My wife and I have just now passed our fifth year of involvement in an LDS ward. We have accommodated and adjusted in many ways, as have the folks with regards to us. In those five years we have had three bishops. Each one has reacted to us and our presence differently, just as we have reacted differently to each of them. The one thing that continues to stand out to me is how consistently, constantly, commonly, casually, and continually the folks deem the LDS church as "the church" and the LDS gospel as "the gospel." It happens the same way here in this forum in many if not most threads and posts. What could be a unifying mechanism becomes a distancing mechanism when applied specifically to one Christian community of faith over all others. Back in the 70s, the Gaithers wrote a song that spread across the Christian music community. In part, its lyrics say the following:

Listen child of God, its alive.
Discouraged pastor, it's his church and it's still alive.
Lonely missionary, sow that seed with confidence.
The church is still alive.
Old saint, you're not alone or forgotten.
The church is still alive.
Its alive my broken-hearted friend, it's still alive.
Busy mothers, just keep trusting in Jesus, the church is alive.
You're not alone out there, just keep looking to Jesus.
The church is alive.
And faithful fathers, there's rest in the Lord.
God's church is still alive.
So family of God lift your hands, lift your hands and praise the Lord.
The church, God's church triumphant is alive, it's alive my friends.
Alive and well

These words have always moved me - "The church triumphant (including all manifestations of the church in this dispensation) is alive and well!" I really get discouraged by distancing mechanisms that divide us all up and rank us, especially faith-based distancing mechanisms.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Navidad

[pogi]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

If you had asked me when I was active in the church, I would have said I was happy. For me, I spent a lot of effort telling myself I was happy, sharing my testimony that I was happy. But all the while I was dealing with debilitating depression. I'm not saying everyone is like I am. 

Was the church the cause/source of your depression?  Typically without addressing the core issues of depression and making significant lifestyle changes and perhaps therapy or medications, depression doesn’t magically go away when people leave the church. 
 

If you are now healed from depression, or at least improved, what did it take?  Would you say that such lifestyle changes, medications, and/or outlooks/perspectives would have been unachievable while active in the church?

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Was the church the cause/source of your depression?  Typically without addressing the core issues of depression and making significant lifestyle changes and perhaps therapy or medications, depression doesn’t magically go away when people leave the church. 
 

If you are now healed from depression, or at least improved, what did it take?  Would you say that such lifestyle changes, medications, and/or outlooks/perspectives would have been unachievable while active in the church?

No, of course it wasn't the cause, and it didn't magically go away. It wasn't until after I left that I was finally able to see how bad things were, and I got help through psychotherapy, medication, and a 3-day stay in a psych hospital in Texas. Years of telling myself I was happy kept me to seeing the truth.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Ditto and Ditto. My wife and I have just now passed our fifth year of involvement in an LDS ward. We have accommodated and adjusted in many ways, as have the folks with regards to us. In those five years we have had three bishops. Each one has reacted to us and our presence differently, just as we have reacted differently to each of them. The one thing that continues to stand out to me is how consistently, constantly, commonly, casually, and continually the folks deem the LDS church as "the church" and the LDS gospel as "the gospel." It happens the same way here in this forum in many if not most threads and posts. What could be a unifying mechanism becomes a distancing mechanism when applied specifically to one Christian community of faith over all others. Back in the 70s, the Gaithers wrote a song that spread across the Christian music community. In part, its lyrics say the following:

Listen child of God, its alive.
Discouraged pastor, it's his church and it's still alive.
Lonely missionary, sow that seed with confidence.
The church is still alive.
Old saint, you're not alone or forgotten.
The church is still alive.
Its alive my broken-hearted friend, it's still alive.
Busy mothers, just keep trusting in Jesus, the church is alive.
You're not alone out there, just keep looking to Jesus.
The church is alive.
And faithful fathers, there's rest in the Lord.
God's church is still alive.
So family of God lift your hands, lift your hands and praise the Lord.
The church, God's church triumphant is alive, it's alive my friends.
Alive and well

These words have always moved me - "The church triumphant (including all manifestations of the church in this dispensation) is alive and well!" I really get discouraged by distancing mechanisms that divide us all up and rank us, especially faith-based distancing mechanisms.

IMO, LDS church members occupy a weird space religiously in that they want to be considered Christians, but they don't want anyone to think they are Orthodox Christians. So, for most Christians, the gospel is Christ's atonement for our sins, whereas in Mormonism it's that plus the restoration of the church, prophets, temples, and so on. So, there is simultaneous desire to be accepted but also motivation to keep mainstream Christianity at a bit of distance.

Edited August 18, 2022 by jkwilliams

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

No, of course it wasn't the cause, and it didn't magically go away. It wasn't until after I left that I was finally able to see how bad things were, and I got help through psychotherapy, medication, and a 3-day stay in a psych hospital in Texas. Years of telling myself I was happy kept me to seeing the truth.

I am really glad you are doing better.  

I know exactly what you are talking about with not allowing ourselves to go there and honestly/openly examine the dark corners of our heart/soul that fester with disease.  We build walls to keep people (including ourselves) from going deep with us, and wear masks to superficially hide behind.  I think this is a fairly universal experience with humans (on some level at least - some with more trauma/pain than others).  

I am curious how you would answer my last question though.  Do you think it would have been possible to do the same work of pulling off the blinders and superficial bandaids to reveal the core issues and allow yourself to feel the pain while still in the church?   I am asking because it sounded like you were suggesting that leaving the church was required for you to do that work of healing, so I am curious as to the role the church had played.

Edited August 18, 2022 by pogi

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am really glad you are doing better.  

I know exactly what you are talking about with not allowing ourselves to go there and honestly/openly examine the dark corners of our heart/soul that fester with disease.  We build walls to keep people (including ourselves) from going deep with us, and wear masks to superficially hide behind.  I think this is a fairly universal experience with humans (on some level at least).  

I am curious how you would answer my last question though.  Do you think it would have been possible to do the same work of pulling off the blinders and superficial bandaids to reveal the core issues and allow yourself to feel the pain while still in the church?   I am asking because it sounded like you were suggesting that leaving the church was required for you to do that work of healing, so I am curious as to the role the church had played.

Required? I doubt it. I'm just saying that leaving meant I lost a lot of the motivation to keep telling myself I was happy. I'm sure I would have crashed and burned like I did eventually, in or out of the church. 

[Kevin Christensen]

16 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Kevin: Quick question . . . what is your interpretation of the phrase in the verse you quoted, "the church collectively"? I have pondered on that for some years. It is an odd phrase if it refers to just one church, is it not? Thanks for your thoughts.

In my view, "speaking unto the church collectively and not individually" is to emphasize that the well pleasingness relative to what the "true and living" imagery means does not automatically and indiscriminately apply to every individual member, but rather to the church, the assembly as an assembly.   Membership in the church, making the covenants that formally makes one part of the ekklesia, the assembly of people, does not automatically bestow all necessary virtue and truth, but only bestows opportunity and accountability, that is, access to true vine, true bread, true treasure, living bread, living waters, the IAM who is the truth and the life, the tree of life, the true living way through the veil, to become a living stone.  The Bible passages that use "true and living" imagery which all point to revelation, priesthood, ordinances and covenants, and the temple, match the themes of D&C 1 verse for verse and point for point. 

Quote

, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh;

35 For I am no respecter of persons,

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Required? I doubt it. I'm just saying that leaving meant I lost a lot of the motivation to keep telling myself I was happy. I'm sure I would have crashed and burned like I did eventually, in or out of the church. 

I see.  So the church was acting as a crutch of sorts for you - or one more mask to hide behind.  Either way, I am glad you are doing better.

You mentioned earlier that you are afraid to go back because that might mean a return to "self-loathing".  I interpreted that to mean that the church was the cause of that self-loathing/depression/pain, and that the only cure was to leave the church.   With further clarification, it sounds like you acknowledge that the church was not "the cause", and that leaving was not necessarily required for healing.  I fully understand how the church, with its human leaders, can contribute to pain, or can be a trigger in some way, but usually the source is more of a personal/internal issue of unhealthy perspective/lens/beliefs/trauma that we look through.   Once those core issues are addressed, I think most people will find that the church and its teachings can contribute to improved happiness/well-being.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I see.  So the church was acting as a crutch of sorts for you - or one more mask to hide behind.  Either way, I am glad you are doing better.

You mentioned earlier that you are afraid to go back because that might mean a return to "self-loathing".  I interpreted that to mean that the church was the cause of that self-loathing/depression/pain, and that the only cure was to leave the church.   With further clarification, it sounds like you acknowledge that the church was not "the cause", and that leaving was not necessarily required for healing.  I fully understand how the church, with its human leaders, can contribute to pain, or can be a trigger in some way, but usually the source is more of a personal/internal issue of unhealthy perspective/lens/beliefs/trauma that we look through.   Once those core issues are addressed, I think most people will find that the church and its teachings can contribute to improved happiness/well-being.

Of course, I'd have to believe the church is true to go back. Well, I shouldn't say "go back," as I'm there most Sundays. 

[Tacenda]

42 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Of course, I'd have to believe the church is true to go back. Well, I shouldn't say "go back," as I'm there most Sundays. 

I'd go back if my ward didn't think I was a doubt germ, and I could be a nuanced member. I would enjoy the hymns and any talks that bolstered my belief in God. I like this recent article:

https://religionnews.com/2022/08/17/dear-mormons-in-a-faith-crisis-youre-not-crazy-wrong-or-stupid/?fbclid=IwAR1wsP4Vy3kTV15JS3TEFJCLEagezUDvLsUDgUKoQamF-jqEAg0FmKIlDco

Sunstone had a saying:  "There's more than one way to Mormon"

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I never found it particularly difficult to be a member of the church. You can choose to have faith, make a commitment, and so on, but it doesn’t mean you’ll be happy. 

Sure.  But my question for SMAC is does he think he would accept the LDS Gospel had he not been born into it. Also a follow up point, would he had have had the "spiritual experience" he outlined when President Hinckley walked into the outdoor auditorium had he not already been LDS and had the idea that this man spoke for God and was a prophet?  Would someone who was a non member spontaneously had the same result?  I doubt it.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Teancum said:

Sure.  But my question for SMAC is does he think he would accept the LDS Gospel had he not been born into it. Also a follow up point, would he had have had the "spiritual experience" he outlined when President Hinckley walked into the outdoor auditorium had he not already been LDS and had the idea that this man spoke for God and was a prophet?  Would someone who was a non member spontaneously had the same result?  I doubt it.

I think the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that you have to really want to believe before you can accept the LDS gospel. 

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yes.

Why?

I think you know why.  THe odds of you accepting the LLDS gospel had you not been born into it are slim.  Your paradigm, your spiritual experiences, your testimony, they are all based on the fact that you were born LDS.  Your story about Presidnet Hinckley is less impressive because of this. You were indoctrinated to believe that someone in his position is God's prophet.  Someone not LDS in the same setting certainly would NOT have had the same experience.

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

But whether they stay in it is another question.  "Because they were born into it" is an ever-decreasing reason to stay.

Meanwhile, the Church has many converts who stick with it.

The amount of converts is relatively low compared to the entire world. And the retention rate of converts is dismal. Dismal.  Totally dismal.

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

Again, I don't think being a Latter-day Saint is particularly difficult.  It's mostly a matter of choice.

Thanks,

-Smac

IT may be a matter of choice.  Most things are.  My guess it though, that had you not been born into it you would not have chose to become part it of it.

[Teancum]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that you have to really want to believe before you can accept the LDS gospel. 

Pretty much.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

IMO, LDS church members occupy a weird space religiously in that they want to be considered Christians, but they don't want anyone to think they are Orthodox Christians. So, for most Christians, the gospel is Christ's atonement for our sins, whereas in Mormonism it's that plus the restoration of the church, prophets, temples, and so on. So, there is simultaneous desire to be accepted but also motivation to keep mainstream Christianity at a bit of distance.

I find this very helpful. I have never heard an LDS leader include the restoration of the church, prophets, temples, and so on as essential parts of the gospel per se. They are essential parts of LDS doctrine, just as footwashing, pacifism, being a conscientious objector, baptism by immersion of adults are all part of Mennonite doctrine, but I would never think of any of those things as part of the gospel (the good news of the birth, life, suffering, death, ascension, and coming again of Christ). If indeed my LDS friends include all the things you mention as part of "the gospel" then indeed it is differentiated from "the gospel" as understood by other Christians. Once again it appears we are divided by a common language. Take care.