Mormons and Psychadelics--what the what?

[Stormin' Mormon]

Just tripped across this article from Rolling Stone on Yahoo! News, and did a double take at the headline:  

The Church of Latter-Day Saints Is ‘Imploding.’ Can Psychedelics Help Save It — or Take Its Place?

A snippet from the article:
 

Quote

 

Many of the post-Mormons I spoke with see the leap from Joseph Smith to mushrooms as shorter than one might think. “We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth,” wrote Smith in 1842. The core principle of the faith is revelation, or the idea that God spoke to Joseph Smith, and can speak to you and me, too. According to Tess Huntington, a 29-year-old Divine Assembly member who has emerged as a prominent member due to her personal charisma and extensive experience using psilocybin to heal her own sexual trauma, Latter-day Saints are “already programmed to … seek the divine on the daily.” She quips, “A married [Mormon] couple probably talks to God more every day than they talk to each other.”

Huntington, a grimacing blonde in old photographs who now sports a shaved head, feather earring, and crocodile tattoo, says that losing this personal relationship with God, and the intricate myth of Mormonism, is one of the worst parts about leaving the church. “You just need something to matter again,” she says while describing the loss, a creeping sense of nihilism so shattering she bought a dog just to have something to tether herself to. 

“Then you eat some fungus,” Huntington continues, “and it’s like hitting the jackpot.” Everything she had been grasping for as a Mormon was suddenly “IV’ed” into her arm on psychedelics. After years of seeking magic in the world, says Huntington, sometimes even feeling it ripple through LDS gatherings, psychedelics “validated this guttural desire for a rich and meaningful existence” outside the patriarchal confines of Mormonism. 

 

I'm not even sure where to begin a discussion on this topic.  Is this really a growing trend in Utah?  Are there other religions whose former members are turning to psychedelics in like numbers?  Or is Rolling Stone elevating a very niche phenomena and spinning it into a narrative with a tenuous relationship with reality?

[The Nehor]

Here I was hoping permission had finally been given. Oh well, maybe next week.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Just tripped across this article from Rolling Stone on Yahoo! News, and did a double take at the headline:  

The Church of Latter-Day Saints Is ‘Imploding.’ Can Psychedelics Help Save It — or Take Its Place?

A snippet from the article:
 

I'm not even sure where to begin a discussion on this topic.  Is this really a growing trend in Utah?  Are there other religions whose former members are turning to psychedelics in like numbers?  Or is Rolling Stone elevating a very niche phenomena and spinning it into a narrative with a tenuous relationship with reality?

I tried to read the article and couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs.  To many people in these news items are trying to describe our beliefs who obviously have no idea what we actually believe.

I thought that the title was a bait and switch though, because I didn't see anything in there that supported the statement that the church is 'imploding'.

[SkyRock]

While psychedelics seem very tempting and may be very useful for things like PTSD and other psychological conditions, my friends have told me about their trips and how bad they can be.  

[Stormin' Mormon]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I tried to read the article and couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs.  To many people in these news items are trying to describe our beliefs who obviously have no idea what we actually believe.

I thought that the title was a bait and switch though, because I didn't see anything in there that supported the statement that the church is 'imploding'.

I skipped and skimmed through the first half of the article for that very reason.  And I agree that the headline oversells what the article is about.  But I was both bemused and amused by the whole thing, so I had to share it here. 

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Is this really a growing trend in Utah? 

No

 

9 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Are there other religions whose former members are turning to psychedelics in like numbers? 

What are the "like numbers"?

 

12 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Or is Rolling Stone elevating a very niche phenomena and spinning it into a narrative with a tenuous relationship with reality?

Would any publisher interested in selling stories do that?🙂

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Here I was hoping permission had finally been given. Oh well, maybe next week.

Well, I'm taken aback by what I heard yesterday. My husband works with the grandson of a guy whom I babysat for, he and his deceased now wife, when a teenager.  The grandson told my husband at work that on Sunday they visited him and he was sitting in his easy chair and feeling a little too great, he had taken a gummy and has his medical marijuana card and he said he should have probably only taken a half, talk about surreal! And works in the temple. 

There is a dispensary right in his little home town, where I grew up for part of my life. It's a strange, strange world we live in. In Utah of all places, there is plenty of permission looks like. Still illegal in Idaho though. But I'm thankful if it helps people. 

[SkyRock]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I'm taken aback by what I heard yesterday. My husband works with the grandson of a guy whom I babysat for, he and his deceased now wife, when a teenager.  The grandson told my husband at work that on Sunday they visited him and he was sitting in his easy chair and feeling a little too great, he had taken a gummy and has his medical marijuana card and he said he should have probably only taken a half, talk about surreal! And works in the temple. 

There is a dispensary right in his little home town, where I grew up for part of my life. It's a strange, strange world we live in. In Utah of all places, there is plenty of permission looks like. Still illegal in Idaho though. But I'm thankful if it helps people. 

Medical marijuana is strange. 1st,  we have no set doses or clinical studies are proper studies.  2nd, it just isn't effective for many of the alleged conditions people use it.  The research shows it increases anxiety and depression rather decreases it.  It is less effective for back pain than advil.  The one thing it is good for it nausea related to chemotherapy.  3rd, it causes schizophrenia in many users. 4th, we have increased car accidents in areas with legalization. 5th lots of problems with kids getting marijuana food and candy products and becoming very ill.

I am all for use if it works for the alleged purposes, but it likely isn't the best treatment for most. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Where to start, her many views are lacking in merit, common sense, a complete misunderstanding of Latter-days Saints, especially marriage between Latter-day Saints, etc. Well let’s be honest, just lacking in all things Spiritual, mental, and even physical. 

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

The Church of Latter-Day Saints Is ‘Imploding.’

Does the writer to qualify what they mean by this?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Fether

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Just tripped…

Pun intended?

[Stormin' Mormon]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Pun intended?

Absolutely.  I've been waiting all afternoon for someone to notice.

[Pyreaux]

I've always been intrigued by, extremely doubtful of, and even taken a bit of smug joy in this theory. It begins with the inescapable premise of what I believe the hardest problem in explaining away the church. Its that people in the early days of the restoration clearly weren't mass liars. They lived and died over what they saw. Something extremely odd did in fact happen. If you are not a believing member of the church, you have to explain it by inserting something in the place of God. Be it the Devil, the work of a folk/real magician who tricked/enchanted them, mass hypnosis by an untrained but gifted and charismatic hypnotist, mass hallucinations induced by Native American mushrooms. Insert any theory you want, sure its possible, however unlikely.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

While psychedelics seem very tempting and may be very useful for things like PTSD and other psychological conditions, my friends have told me about their trips and how bad they can be.  

I took ketamine three times for treatment of depression. The third time was a bad trip and I went home and hid under the covers shaking for two days. However, I was weirdly not depressed, even if terrorized. I intend to try it again if I ever get off of my other drug (I am now shocked I was ever allowed to try it, but the research showing the massive increase in problems with the interaction might be new).

If I do try it though, it will be with incremental increases so I can back off if it feels wrong (it was a downer of a day and I had distracted myself by researching the missing kids of the Daybell case as the news had just broken the day before, attitude apparently makes a big difference).

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

Does the writer to qualify what they mean by this?

Not really sure.  I could just say that some fat is being trimmed from the Church which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[OGHoosier]

I have a question.

How does psilocybin heal one from emotional trauma?

[Calm]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-psychedelic-drugs-may-become-a-key-treatment-for-ptsd-and-depression-180979983/
 

Quote:  The common category of antidepressants often used to treat PTSD now are Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs). These drugs work by increasing the amount of serotonin available to bind to serotonin receptors in the brain. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that helps regulate your mood. When more serotonin binds to specialized receptors, it may help patients feel more stable and content.

Psilocybin also acts on serotonin receptors, but scientists say the drug’s impact reaches far beyond serotonin. They believe that the drug actually alters the way neurons connect to one another. “We're talking about a different mechanism of action that these drugs have compared to the old serotonergic compounds,” says Vermetten “The mechanism action doesn't rely on one molecule.”

Many patients prescribed antidepressants experience a range of side effects from upset stomach to insomnia. One of the reasons that psychedelic therapies are so appealing is that they’re thought to work with only a few doses—limiting the risk of side effects.

Woolley explains that the psychedelic drugs seem to induce a state of plasticity that can make it easier for people to rewire neuronal circuits and learn new things, like they did when they were kids, for example. That provides the opportunity for therapy to be especially effective. Patients are more likely to embrace new connections and ways of thinking during their treatment.

Additionally, Rakesh Jetly, chief medical officer of Mydecine, a company developing psychedelic medicines, and a veteran of the Canadian army, says, brain imaging studies have shown that the drugs can induce changes in a network of cells that normally helps us understand who we are and where we are in time and space, called the default mode network. The disruption of this circuit may be behind the symptoms of many PTSD patients who experienced trauma in war. When an individual feels scared, this is the part of the brain that tells them, “Hey, man, you’re okay. You’re not [at war] in Rwanda anymore. You’re not [fighting] in Afghanistan,” explains Jetly. However, if the default mode network isn’t working properly, the person may have difficulty recognizing that they’re no longer in danger.

[Calm]

Continued further down:

What’s really unusual about these treatments in particular is that it’s not just giving people the drug,” says Woolley. “Millions and millions of people use psilocybin or magic mushrooms and all those people don’t get better.”

“And so what most people think is that well, that probably means that it’s something about how it’s given.” Woolley explains that setting matters. Patients mentally prepare for the experience and go through it in a calm and familiar environment, with therapists they trust, rather than surrounded by concert-goers they haven’t previously met, for example.

That practice is different from the treatment most patients are likely to be familiar with—cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT)—a type of therapy designed to help people identify and change negative thought and behavior patterns. “Anybody trained to be a therapist from like 1980 on has been taught to do this very directive psychotherapy, a CBT approach. ‘We will talk about this. We're going to learn this skill. How did it go? When you go home, we want you to do this homework,’” says Jetly. But some scientists think that approach doesn’t make the most sense with psychedelic treatments. Jetly believes the therapy should be directed more by the patient than the therapist, leaving the individual free to make associations between different experiences they may not have previously recognized.

In addition to a variety of doses and formulations, different trials are testing different therapeutic approaches. For example, the therapist’s main goal could just be to guide the experience and keep the patients safe since patients could experience psychoses or behave erratically. Jetly believes therapists should help guide patients as they discuss whatever comes to mind, but not insist on focusing on specific goals like they might during CBT. “There’s no right and wrong, but you’re hoping that with the medicine, and after the experience, that they’ll be able to bring up stuff that was otherwise painful and maybe make some connections.” That could help them better understand themselves and make sense of their experiences. The most important part, says Vermetten, is that therapy continues after the psychedelic treatment. “The drug is the catalyst. The therapy is not [done] when you're done with the two sessions of psilocybin,” he says. At first, they’ll process what they felt during the treatments, but Vermetten says many patients will continue to see their therapists to discuss both the experiences during the treatment and any continuing effects from their trauma.

[Kenngo1969]

Here's my partial commentary.  Haven't finished the whole thing yet.  Might get back to it, might not.  The only reason I'm even mildly interested in it at all is because it's so ... bad.

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According to Smith, who claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon from a pair of gold plates ...

“A pair of gold plates”? Sigh. And this chick wants me to take her seriously … really?  

Quote

[Former Utah state legislator, former Latter-day Saint, and current prophet of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom Steve] Urquhart ... believes, 100 percent seriously, that the LDS Church [sic] (the mainstream one he and Mitt Romney are from, not the fundamentalist offshoots depicted in Under the Banner of Heaven) is a cult.

Yeah, that’s probably the mushrooms talking, Steve.

Quote

[Yesenia] Ramos, tell(s) me (she) left the LDS Church (sic) in 2012, after it began to feel like the opposite of what (she) thought it stood for. “God is love,” Yesenia says with conviction, but within the church, she says she felt judged for her decision to be both a mom and a nurse, rather than a stay-at-home mom.

Okay. I guess she just lived in a weird ward. I haven’t heard any moms being judged for working outside the home in about 25 years.

 

Quote

(Speaking of gay suicides allegedly caused by the Church of Jesus Christ formally classifying homosexual behavior as apostasy) Sara Urquhart is quick to point out, “It took a bunch of white men dying for some people to notice there might be a problem.”

Yep. That’s right. A lot of progressive types think Latter-day Saints hit the trifecta of being racist, sexist, and homophobic. Not to mention calloused and uncaring, to boot. In case you didn’t know. In other news, water is wet and snow is cold. 

 

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… [A]ccording to Jim Bennett, a current Saint who met me in the basement of the Salt Lake Tabernacle before choir practice …

Ooh! A clandestine meeting! Would Church of Jesus Christ higher-ups order a hit on Brother Bennett if they found out?

Quote

… the LDS Church “is barely treading water in the United States, and imploding everywhere else,” with the exception of Africa and South America, where it continues to grow. Bennett thinks the downward trend has been exacerbated by the pandemic: Some of his fellow Saints simply got used to being in charge of their own spiritual affairs the past two years, and now that church doors are finally open again, “a lot of people haven’t come back.”

I wonder if Brother Bennett feels he was treated fairly by this reporter. I would be interested in knowing the full context of these remarks.

Quote

A representative for the LDS Church [sic] did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

Huh. Shocking. I wonder why.

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Bennett is descended from six generations of LDS elites and wants to see the church reform so the institution his ancestors built does not cease to be relevant for his children.

"LDS elites"?  Hmm. And I wonder what, exactly, he means by “reform.” Become another Protestant denomination? There’s always the chance, if the Church of Jesus Christ stands strong against the winds of change that its detractors forecast, that, eventually, detractors and dissidents (especially the younger among them) will realize that it had been right all along. On the other hand, what if it becomes, essentially, just another Protestant denomination? (There already is one of those of the Latter-day Saint variety in the Community of Christ …) If that happens, there won’t really be anything left for would-be returning Prodigals to go back to.

Quote

… Now, as psychedelics such as psilocybin are reentering the mainstream for their promise in treating some aspects of the mental-health crisis — a crisis Utah leads the nation in by some counts, with more residents depressed and suicidal than those in almost any other state …

There is no question that, indeed, that is serious if it is true, but if you can’t be trusted to get even the basics of the religion correct, why should I trust you to report accurately on something as potentially nuanced as depression and suicide statistics?

The article quotes Professor John Vervaeke, a cognitive scientist and psychologist at the University of Toronto, who says:

Quote

“If religions were really healthily functioning,” he says, “there wouldn’t be this turn to psychedelics."

You expect me to take you seriously, Doctor, and yet you present a transparent false dichotomy … as though religion and religion alone (or at least its deficiency) is responsible for a purported uptick in psychedelic use? Bzzzzt! Try again! (If I didn’t know better, I would say this reporter went cherry picking for sources who would tell her what she wanted to hear … and, come to think of it, I’m not sure I don’t know better.)

Quote

Researchers at Johns Hopkins have found similar results, showing that newcomers to psychedelics often rank their first psilocybin trip as being on par with the birth of a child.

A psilocybin trip equated with one of the most painful experiences known in all of humanity? Man, you guys need a new sales pitch!  

The reporter quotes a female psilocybin user, Tess Huntington who

Quote

quips, “A married [Latter-day Saint] couple probably talks to God more every day than they talk to each other.”

Not in any healthy Latter-day Saint marital relationship I’ve ever heard of.

Then, later, she says, as a Latter-day Saint, your life sucks [okay, that’s my paraphrase, that’s not really what she said, but it captures the gist],

Quote

“Then you eat some fungus,” Huntington continues, “and it’s like hitting the jackpot.”

Yeah, gambling is pretty much what I would equate taking psychedelics with, too.  They're like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates: "You never know what you're gonna get."

The reporter quotes Dr. Vervaeke, the Toronto researcher quoted earlier:

Quote

Messianic ideations can sometimes occur, and without a community to help people to engage in self-reflection and self-criticism, says Vervaeke, “you can start bu!!$h!tting yourself in a very powerful way.”

Why wait for the Celestial Kingdom?  According to the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom, you can become a god here and now!    And, oh, by the way, so there is a potential downside to the wonderdrug and the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom! Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote

“As post-Mormons what we have in common is [that] we gave up belonging for selfhood.”

Oh. So you gave up trying to become what God wants you to become so that you could become what you want to become. Okay. More power to you. Good luck with that.

Tess Huntington is quoted again as saying that psychedelics

Quote

“validated this guttural desire for a rich and meaningful existence” outside the patriarchal confines of Mormonism.

Well, good. I’m glad you escaped “Mormonism’s” “patriarchal confines.”  No doubt, just in the nick of time, too!  I mean, you might have ended up drowned in the Great Salt Lake after being thrown from the highest spire of the Salt Lake Temple if you'd stayed!  Whew!   

Quote

Huntington and Urquhart also frequently emphasize the idea that the real medicine is the community.

Right. It’s not about tripping on mushrooms, it’s about community … like, say, the community one can find in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Oh. Wait. There are those pesky patriarchal confines to deal with. Sorry. My bad.

Quote

“‘Namby-pamby taffy-pullers’ they call us, [dissidents or the disaffected]” Urquhart roars.

Umm … okay. I’m not sure how I could have called anybody that before, since this is the first time I’ve heard the term—and, to the best of my knowledge, no one I know ever has heard it either.  But ... whatever.   

Speaking of Latter-day Saints, Urquhart says

Quote

“They were good people, and” — he underscores this point — “they were sincere.”

 

Sincere … but deluded? Okay. Thanks for that … I guess.   

Quote

Raised on Mormon dogma, Urquhart claims, he never particularly learned to think for himself about anything, let alone develop his own moral compass.

Really? About absolutely anything? What to eat for breakfast, what shirt to wear, what to do with your free time, and so on and so forth? Huh. Okay.

That's it for now.  More later, perhaps ... or not.  If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Calm]

There is one mention of “Namby-pamby taffy-pullers” online and it is this article.  I have never heard the phrase before, though I could become quite fond of it.  The fact that he “roars” it…is that perhaps actually supposed to make it more believable rather than less?  Thanks for taking the hit, Ken.   
 

Apparently somewhere in this devotional, Elder Holland refers to taffy pulling…(which unfortunately I found out is a sexual reference as well so I won’t be using it to tease my daughter)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4_LcENySzQ

Found a reference from someone not happy with it…

”Don’t you dare bail. I’m so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. (Crowd laughter). But I am. And I say, what on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of paddy-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that? As if none of this ever mattered, as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered? As if this is all supposed to be just exactly the way I want it and answered every one of my questions and pursue this and occupy that, decide this, and then maybe I’ll be a Latter-day Saint. Well, there is too much Irish in me for that.”

http://indiemormon.com/2016/04/30/beware-the-paddy-cake-taffy-pullers/

Found the whole transcript on an exMormon site, Seems popular on those, lol…

Quote

Somebody once said, “God loves broken things.” And he must be deserved of so many of them. And that’s apparently the way it is with broken things in life ― broken marriages, broken economies, broken political systems, broken homes, broken emotions, broken minds. But I assert to you, and it will be my theme tonight, that whether it’s a little break or a big break, we’re all a little broken. That’s the nature of a fallen world.

(0:40 minute/second)
God loves broken things, and I ask you to take heart in that, because there is something in the plan that seems to require that. I know that may sound a little harsh, I don’t want it to be patronizing, but think about it: It takes broken clouds to nourish the earth. It takes broken earth to grow things. It takes broken grain to make bread. It takes broken bread to nourish us.

(1:12)
These are the cycles of life. This is how it works. And in the immediate instance, in the immediate moment, that can seem horrible. That can seem terrible. Whatever this breakage is, this is how life was supposed to be. This is how they told me it would be when I was a laurel. This is the way they said they told me to come back from my mission and get ready for all this. This is following whatever that was. Too many things are broken.

(1:44)
Well, things can be broken, and they are, and they will be. But, hang on and persevere ― and stay with me, and stay with the Lord, and stay with the Gospel, and learn that it’s only by throwing that little kernel of corn away, the scripture says, that we could ever have a harvest and a return on that.

(2:12)
Everybody knows that you gotta plant in order to harvest. And you better save your seed corn. And it would be foolish beyond measure to just sort of hold that tight in your little sweaty palm and not let it go. We know that now.

(2:27)
But what about the first guy that ever had to do that? What about the first family that was hungry and some angel came along and said: “Well, now in order, maybe to make this work, you’ve gotta throw all that stuff away?”

(2:40)
We’re given these acts of faith in these moments and cycles of life where we have to trust God. And somebody said, “How can you trust God?” And the answer was [stern voice]: “Because he TOLD me he could. He TOLD me I can. He TOLD me he’s trustable. He’s trustworthy.” THAT’S why I trust in God.

(3:04)
And we need to believe that every word that ever was uttered by the mouth of almighty God will be realized, will be fulfilled ― and that includes your blessings. That includes: your baby blessing and your confirmation; and for the many ordinations of the Priesthood; and the women and all the Priesthood blessings that go with that ― Patriarchal blessings, father’s blessings, temple blessings. EVERY WORD will be realized. EVERY PROMISE will be honored.

(3:33)
DON’T CUT AND RUN ― because somehow there’s the tinkling of the little glass, or the shattering of the favorite piece of china, or somebody doing something where you say: “Gosh this isn’t the way they told me it would be.” Everybody is going to have some things broken. And apparently, apparently the thing God loves most of all in this world is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

(4:11)
For all these generations, for four thousand years, Adam and Eve and their descendants, took these little lambs and offered them on an altar as devotion and loyalty and love of God. THAT WE TRUST the future ― WE TRUST THE FUTURE.

(4:38)
How far away is the Savior from Adam and Eve? We don’t know all the dating in the world. But traditionally, scripturally, we mark it as at least four thousand years. That’s a lot of time to live by faith. That’s a lot of time to believe that somebody’s gonna come and help. Well, you can trust in it because divine beings said it so. And for four thousand years God’s children offered a little lamb to represent the great lamb who would come and save the world ― a sacrifice, something broken, something bleeding, something offered, something damaged, if you will, for the great, grand good of mankind. But when the lamb came it was then sacrilegious, and surely counterproductive, to continue to offer the little lamb when the great lamb had already come.

(5:46)
So now we’re gonna ratchet it up a little. We’re gonna grow up. We’re gonna be a little more mature. We’re gonna move a little from a kind of a law of Moses world to a little more of a Gospel world and the principles are gonna go inside. We’re not going to have a lamb out here. It’s not going to be external. It’s not going to be a bit hoopla in the temple. It’s going to be more personal for every one of us, more individual, more elevated – still symbolic, but more personal.

(6:16)
“I am the light and the life of the world,” he said, “I’m alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. You shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood. Yay your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away; for I will accept none of your sacrifices or your burnt offerings any more. You shall offer, you shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him or her will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost. I have come into the world to bring redemption into the world to save the world from sin.”

(6:59)
Why a broken heart? Why a contrite spirit? What did Christ die of? If there had been a post-mortem at Calvary, what would the coroner have said? DEATH by broken heart.

(7:18)
We know that because when the Roman soldier came to break a bone in this unblemished lamb, thank heavens he didn’t have to, discovered he’s already dead. How did he know he was dead? He poked his spear in his side and water and blood rushed out.

(7:34)
What’s it doing down there in his abdominal cavity? He hasn’t been in a car wreck. He hasn’t had all of his organs damaged. Or has he? He died, in effect, physiologically, ultimately, and certainly spiritually, of a broken heart. He died of contrition. He died feeling sorrow for the sins of the world.

(8:03)
And brothers and sisters, we say we’re Disciples of Christ. This is the great church of Christ. This is the true congregation of Disciples of Christ. WELL WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? [stern voice] YOU TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS. YOU TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A DISCIPLE OF CHRIST, BUT I DON’T WANT TO WALK WHERE HE WALKED, AND I DON’T WANT TO SAY WHAT HE SAID, AND I DON’T WANT TO FEEL WHAT HE FEELS, AND I SURE DON’T WANT TO SHED THE TEARS THAT HE SHED. Let’s not push this discipleship stuff too far. [laughter]

(8:40)
I don’t believe there is any royal road to discipleship. What God the very father of us all is saying, and when the Savior came to show us the way to do, is to break a few things, in order that we can understand that they can be made whole and holier and happier and better. That’s the lesson of the resurrection. The ultimate healing, the ultimate impact of the atonement, the resurrection being THEE chief characteristic of Christianity.

(9:22)
There have been a lot of other smart people in the world. There have even been people who’ve done magical things and worked wonders. But we’ve never had anybody take off his own burial clothes and stand up and live forever and forever and forever, and extend the promise to the rest of the human family. THAT is the singular mark of Christianity.

(9:48)
So the resurrection means that EVERYTHING GETS FIXED. Everything that was broken is healed. Everything that was deformed is made right. Everything that was impure is made pure. Everything that was affected or infected is perfected. And we get something back better than we gave. Whatever this resurrected body is, is supposed to be us at whatever our ideal time or age or circumstance was – plus. Plus celestialization. Plus eternity. Plus redemption.

(10:35)
Please, please I don’t want this to sound condescending. I don’t want it to sound patronizing. I don’t want it to sound cute or quick. But every one of us are gonna be invited to come up to the altar of God and place a broken heart on it. And you get it back – that’s the kernel of corn parable.

(11:00)
Hang on. Don’t, don’t panic. He tells us he’s very much in charge and very, very capable. You’re gonna get your heart back. You’re gonna get your life back. You’re gonna get your kids back. Those of you who don’t have kids are gonna get ‘em. Those of you who aren’t married are gonna be married. You’re gonna get everything. You’re gonna get everything – just bring me a broken HEART! Bring me the symbols of the atonement. Show me you’re a disciple. Show me that you’ll sacrifice – and sometimes that just means weathering your own tears, and holding on to your own hope, and forgiving somebody who’s transgressed against yah.

(11:51)
Why, why do you think a third of the hosts of heaven rejected the father’s plan when it was presented? There was a father’s plan, period. Christ accepted, fortunately we did too, but a third of the hosts of heaven rejected. Why did they do that? I don’t think it was because they were somehow buffaloed about Satan guaranteeing their salvation, which was kinda the pitch – I’ll save everybody, I don’t think that was the appeal. I don’t know that life without any decisions or any choices or any sunrises or any sunsets sounds pretty exciting. I don’t know that that was a very glamorous offer.

(12:49)
Do you want to know my personal feeling? This is – this is JRH 101. [laughter] Do you want to know my feeling about why they – why they followed Lucifer? It was NOT because they liked his take on an option. I think it’s because they were terrified about the true plan. I think they were terrified to something. I think they were afraid to run the risk; that life would have some dark days; that decisions would be made, and some of them would be right and some of them would be wrong; that we’d live with other people and some of them would treat us well and some of them would treat us poorly; and that when we got our own agency worked out then we had to turn around and realize that everybody else had some; and just when we thought life was gonna look pretty good then our kids start growing up; [laughter] and they think they’ve got agency. [laughter] – a couple of the laws we all wanted to revoke from time to time. [laughter]

(14:09)
I don’t know that that’s true. But I have a hunch that it’s true; that they were fearful of the divine experience; they were afraid to suffer; they were afraid to weep; they were afraid to know that some nights would be very, very long, and some days would be very, very painful; and they would cry in the night for help and go to a single adult [inaudible] [audio cut off, then resumes].

(14:48)
[Very stern voice] Now, don’t - you - cave in N-O-W! Having made the decision then, the right one, don’t cut and run now!

(15:02)
Oh Lord, not me. Don’t ask me to suffer. Don’t ask me to weep. Don’t ask me to be disappointed. Don’t ask for me to have a decision that went wrong or somebody else who made a decision and that really crushed me. Or, even that somehow heaven is being complicit in this. Don’t do that now.

(15:28)
If God helps you make your ultimate offering; if God helps you somehow allowing the way, creating the circumstance, designing the environment, giving the option; whatever heaven does, not to cause it but to allow you to make your offering, to break your heart; don’t resist it. And don’t shake your fist at heaven. And don’t say why me, ‘cause it’s always ultimately finely gonna be all of us. None of us will get there without a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

(16:11)
“I have come into the world to bring redemption to the world and to save the world from sin.” And that’s how we get there. And when you’re in the middle of it it’s very, very painful. And so we need each other. And we need reminders. We need the Gospel. We need single adult devotionals. When you’re in the middle of this, when you’re trying to remember that this is part of the divine plan and that you’re trying to be disciples, and you are trying to be willing to weep, and you are trying to be willing to suffer – and by the way, if the contrition and the suffering is not for your own sin – hallelujah – I’m grateful if you don’t have any, but you can join him in suffering and feeling contrition and shedding tears for somebody else’s.

(16:57)
There’s plenty to go around. If you’ve got yours all taken care of then I ask you to look to the left, and look to the right, and look back and look forward, and there are plenty of people who need your help. So weep for them. Cry for them. Suffer if you will, if not for them, at least with them, because that’s what he did. Now when you’re in the middle of that, when you’re willing to follow a plan that had suffering built in to it, remember this single line: Endure and save yourself for days of happiness ahead.

(17:42)
Want me to say that again? Endure and save yourself for days of happiness ahead. The problem, I’ll warn you right now, I will warn you this minute, the problem is when you’re in the middle of these messes you don’t think there is any happiness ahead. You don’t think you would ever gonna be happy again. In fact, if we really get a pitty-party going here, you’re gonna say: I’ve NEVER been happy. [laughter] You know before I think about it, I’ve NEVER been happy. Worlds without end I’ve never been happy. And then you’ll say, I don’t know anybody --- before long we’ve got a real mess here. [laughing]

(18:23)
That is not fair, and it is not true. And you have been happy. And you have been blessed. And you’ve got blessings right now. And if you don’t think so, join me and I’ll take you to some parts of the world where we can really grieve and break our heart for the sins and difficulties of the fallen world.

(18:49)
You’ve been happy. You’re gonna be happy again. You have been blessed. You are blessed. You are blessed and so am I. And God forgive me if I ever in a moment of pity, in a moment of self-indulgence, crying around and suggest you know: Why do you pick on me? Why is life so tough for me?

(19:13)
Well, life’s been very good to all of us. Some days and maybe right now for some, not as well as we’d like. But that’s part of the story. Hang on. Hang on. This is the church of the happy endings. This all works out. That’s the plan. That’s the purpose. That resurrection morning, that resurrection Sunday morning always follows, it never precedes; it always follows that grieving sacrificial atoning Friday night. It’s always happy in the end.

(19:58)
Hang on, and hold on, and persevere and weep for the sins for the world; that we wish and hope that it can be better, and it will. Endure and save yourself for days of happiness ahead.

(20:17)
And so here you are and you are going down this slope, this precipitous slope on a bobsled and your nose is what’s leading right into a brick wall. [laughter] You are head long into disaster and you think there’s no happiness ahead for me. There’s no way out of the mess I’m in. There’s no way I can undo the trouble that’s come. There’s too much water over the dam. There are too many troubles in my kid’s lives; or my hopes and dreams for marriage are dashed, or even the marriage we had is dashed – I don’t know – pick a problem [laughter] and dive down into the pit. And if you will, if you will persevere, if you will stay faithful, if you will say as Elder McConkie wrote in that marvelous hymn, “I believe in Christ, so come one and all,” you will some remarkable day, sooner than later I hope, but if it’s later than so be it, you will some remarkable day suddenly feel that that bobsled you were on nose first hasn’t taken your life. You may have hit a brick wall or two, but somehow you’re still on it; and you’re still riding, miracle of miracles; and the pace is changing. The angle’s changing. It’s not going as fast and I’m not angled down so much. And I’m almost kind of even feeling here for a minute, and it’s been so long I can hardly even recognize it. [laughter]

(22:18)
And then, up the other side of the morning – up the other side of the dawn. [Sounding emotional] I know what it’s like to walk the floor at three o’clock in the morning and believe it will be three o’clock in the morning forever. I know what it’s like to look out of the window to the east and never see a single, solitary sight or the rising sun – day after day, week after week.

(23:06)
And so do the best men and women I know – start with Thomas, go to Henry, go to Dieter, go to Russell, and so it goes in this dispensation and every dispensation. You, nor I, nor anybody out there has any corner on grief; has any full mortgage holding it tightly on tears that travail, and sorrow. Everybody I know, especially here, everybody I know has looked out the window and thought it was going to be three o’clock in the morning forever.

(23:55)
But of all the titles that I love, Elder Roberts has heard me say that on this trip, among I wouldn’t say of all, among the greatest titles of the Savior that I love, the bright and morning star – that’s his title from the Book of Revelation, the son. I testify of the bright and morning star. My brothers and sisters the sun will come up. If I could, I guess if I could, I’m not sure I would, but I’d like to say for you that if I could I’d have it come up immediately. I wouldn’t have you wait 24-hours. And for some of you that’ll be so. For others it’ll be longer. Brothers it might be a very long time. But the sun always rises. The morning sun, the bright morning star, the Savior of the world – endure and save yourself for days of happiness ahead.

(25:06)
A couple of things you’re supposed to do: You’re supposed to be willing to be broken, you don’t have to look for it. By the way, don’t go look for trouble. [laughter] You’ll find it. There’s a way that it somehow seems to find us. But, be willing to be broken knowing you can be fixed; knowing that everything’s going to be healed; and the great metaphor of the resurrection – everything’s going to be perfected – you get it all back.

(25:38)
In the process – enduring, don’t give up, don’t panic, don’t cut and run, don’t bail out in the middle. You’ll ruin the whole story if you run.

(25:50)
Those are two things you’re supposed to do. One thing you’re not supposed to do: Don’t you ever, don’t you EVER [yells] look to heaven, wail and weep and whine on the way, and say: Well I guess God doesn’t love me. [yelling] DON’T YOU EVER DO THAT!

(26:15)
And you know what I know – that some of us have done it already. And some of you might have done it tonight. And some of you may be tempted to do it tomorrow. Don’t. You see the problem here? If the suggestion is: because I suffer, God must not love me – WELL WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THIS? Name me a story, name me a person, name me a character in these books who didn’t suffer somehow, someway – and you’re telling me that they’re not righteous. Is that the implication that they’re not righteous?

(27:02)
Or, what about the Son of God himself? Let’s just pull all the stops here and say: Oh that’s interesting theology. But because, Jesus of Nazareth, who suffered more than any human being can suffer, that’s what King Benjamin said by the way. King Benjamin said he suffered more than a man can suffer; partly because he wasn’t fully a man – he was, some elements of the divinity there – still mortal.

(27:35)
But King Benjamin says he suffered more than a man can suffer. And a lot more than you and a lot more than me. And you’re saying to me: Well, than I guess he, most of all, gets to say – I guess God doesn’t love him. And God loved him more than any other child in his family. But because he loved every one of us he was willing to offer that son to save the rest of us. One perfect child for all the rest of us who are so terribly imperfect.

(28:12)
Don’t, don’t ever find yourself accusing, or controversial, or threatening, or shaking your fist about the love of God. There are a few things that are sacred in this universe. And chief among those is the love of almighty God for his children. [near yelling] Don’t you EVER dare say that, NOT in my presence – NOT EVER, because it’s not true. And I think it’s blasphemous. I think it’s absolutely blasphemous for what he’s done, for what he continues to do, and what he will yet do – all personified ultimately in the atonement, but covered with blessings all along the way in ten thousand kinds in your lifetime.

(29:14)
So you stay with us. You keep your faith and you persevere.

<< Noticeable break in the audio feed, resuming as follows >>

(29:22)
We don’t want to be patient. We say: I believe in being long suffering; I don’t want to suffer; I don’t want it to be very long. There’s scarcely a virtue that we communicate and identify and testify of that we believe. Actually, want to undertake.

(29:44)
We’re the church that says: “We’re Gods and Goddesses in embryo – we’re the church that says we’re kings and queens, we’re priests and priestesses.” People accuse us of heresy. They say we’re absolutely heretical non-Christians because we happen to believe what all the prophets taught – and that is that we’re children of God, heirs of Christ, joint heirs of Christ. We just happen to take the scriptures literally that kids grow up to be like their parents.

(30:14)
But, how does that happen? How does Godliness happen? Do we just pop up – are we just gonna pop up out of the grave? Just halleluiahs – resurrection morning – give me a universe or two, you know! [laughter] Bring me some worlds to run. I’m ready here [still laughing] I don’t think so. Doesn’t sound like line upon line and precept upon precept to me.

(30:44)
How do you become Godly? You do Godly things. That’s how you become Godly. And you practice, and you practice, and you practice ‘till your nose bleeds, ‘till you’re sick of it, ‘till you say I can’t do it any more, ‘till you say is there any other way? Can this cup pass? MAYBE, when you’re finally to that point, God can say I think we’re beginning to get the message, I think we’re on our way.

(31:15)
Most of us do not want to pay that price. Now thank heavens we did survive that war, that one-third-two-third cut in the pre-existence. [laughter] But I think there’s some days here where we get a little weak-kneed, get a little willy-nilly and say I don’t know what to make of all this. Don’t you dare bail.

(31:37)
I am so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. [massive laughter] But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experiences is that? [laughter] As if, as if none of this ever mattered; as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all JUST SUPPOSED to be [near yelling] JUST EXACTLY the way I want it? And answered EVRY one of my questions – and pursue this and occupy that – and defy this and then maybe I’ll be a later-day Saint. Well, there’s too much Irish in me for that. [laughter]

(32:29)
[emphatically] This church means everything to me. Everything. I don’t care what happens; I don’t care what price has to be paid, as painful as that can be; and as much as I don’t want to invite the test as much as I don’t want to sound arrogant, or self-confident, or filled with any kind of pride other than the love of the Lord – this church means everything to me. And I’m NOT going to leave it. And I’M NOT GOING TO LET YOU LEAVE IT. And if there’s anybody in this room who’s investigating, I want to talk to you tonight before the clock strikes twelve for you to get in it. [laughter]

(33:08)
Because everything that I’ve said tonight is true about the destiny of the human soul – a plan ordained for us to be like God-head [second anointing slip-up], with God, and resurrected, and whole, and perfect, and happy. And it’s in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that that happens.

(33:25)
The great, initial first principle of life on the high seas: When life gets tough, and the church is complex, and the world is crumbling, the first great rule of a storm at sea is [yelling] STAY IN THE BOAT! [slight audience chuckle] This is no time for you to say, oh well now it looks like, I don’t know, nobody cares. I’ll get up here, I’ll get up here on the edge and do a little half gainer over the side. [laughter] Boy, if that’ a terrific performance. I’ll tell you you’re in for a good experience.

(34:00)
That’s the dumbest thing you can do. [laughter] And, and the only thing dumber would be for somebody else to follow yah. [more laughter] You stay in the boat and pull the life jacket down on yah and grab an oar and just hang on and it’s gonna get calm. The storm’s gonna pass – we’re gonna come into port – the sun is gonna shine.

(34:21)
“That same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side. And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awakened him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?” (Mark 4 35:38)

(34:52)
This is a serious storm. The ship’s taking water. It’s clearly, clearly a serious storm. Part of the reason we know it’s serious is who’s fearful? Who’s panicky here? The most experienced fisherman in all the Galilee, that’s who. Peter, James and John chief among them – six of the original twelve were fishermen from the Galilee – Peter, James and John were the most famous and probably the most experienced. And if it’s serious enough, that they’re frightened, it’s a serious storm.

(35:27)
But Christ is tired. Does it ever, does it ever dawn on you, does it ever dawn on me, does it ever dawn on anybody that God might be tired? Or that Christ might be tired? Or certainly in his mortality that he was tired. He’s sleeping through this storm! How tired could you be? He’s people tired. He’s blessing tired. He’s parable tired. He’s sermon tired. Everywhere he goes he’s tired. It’s people, people, people, problems, problems, problems – I can’t walk, I can’t see, I can’t hear, bless my child, bless my father, heal my wounds. He’s exhausted. At least he has to be to be sleeping through this storm. Ship apparently looked like [it’s] not going to go down.

(36:40)
I’m grateful that someone, I’m grateful that someone had the sensitivity, as they pushed away from shore, to give him a pillow. I mean that. Somebody thought the Son of the living God might at least deserve a pillow for his troubles. He was asleep on a pillow, and they awakened the same answered carest not that we perish? I’m not sure how he looked at ‘em when they woke him up. I’m sure it was compassionate. I’m sure it was loving. He was always that. But I wonder if he just didn’t kind of [audience chuckle] – what would he wonder about?

(37:31)
Well, he arose and rebuked the wind and said unto the sea “Peace, be still.” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. I promise yah, I told yah, I told yah, the sun’ll come up. We’ll make it to port. It’s calm, calm as a summer’s day. But he’s not through rebuking. After his rebuke of the waves he rebukes them – gently, sweetly – but it’s a rebuke.

(38:02)
“He arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith?” (Mark 4:39-40)

(38:17)
It’s interesting that the very next line is: “Now they feared exceedingly.” [laughter] They can’t win. But it’s for a different reason. Now they’re not afraid of the storm. Now they’re worried about him. “They feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey his words?” (Mark 4:41)

(38:44)
Why would he say, why would he say: “Why is it that you’re so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?” Why would he say that? They had some faith. And it is a bad storm. And they’re entitled to be a little fearful. Why does he rebuke them? Did you catch my first line? I kind of [inaudible] that intentionally. The first line of the parable: “That same day, when even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over to the other side.” (Mark 4:35)

(39:27)
[forcefully] IF THE LIVING SON OF THE LIVING GOD SAYS WE’RE GOING TO THE OTHER SIDE, THEN YOU PUT INTO YOUR BOOK, WE’RE GOING TO THE OTHER SIDE. [almost yelling] Do you believe that God in his heaven, would let the most perfect, only begotten child of his destiny, sink into the middle of the Sea of Galilee? Well, if you think so you've got another thought coming, and so do Peter, James and John. Now they’re new, they’re young. This is only the fourth chapter of Mark. They’re young. [laughter] And they’ve got a ways to go. They’re learning. But Christ is not gonna go down in a boat in the middle of the Sea of Galilee.

(40:13)
Now when he says let’s go to the other side, I’ve got the salvation of the world to complete. I’ve got the atonement of almighty God to fulfill. I’ve got the Gospel to bring to the living and the dead. What he’s saying is, Elders, like I said to the missionaries this afternoon, Elders you’ve gotta get the picture. You’ve gotta be believing. You’ve gotta be bigger and better than you are. You’ve gotta be bolder or stronger and more powerful than you’ve been. You gotta see who I am. And you gotta know that you’ve [?] know it? How is it that you’re so fearful? Why is it that you have so little faith?

(40:58)
He’s teaching. He’s teaching about a broken heart and a contrite spirit, hard times, storms, wind, waves and our little boats that we think are gonna sink – they’re not going to sink, they’re not going to sink, not as long as we cling to him who is the master of ocean and earth and sky. To him, who by his very utterance, can control the wind and the waves, and move a mountain across a valley floor, or plant a sycamore tree into the sea. Count on that. Bank on that. Believe in that. Stay with that and save yourself for days of happiness ahead.

(41:57)
I promise you, with all my heart, that you will have them. And I leave an apostolic blessing on you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as if my hands were on your head individually. If we had the time, we’d do that. We do it the way the ancients did. We do it the way the Savior did – whole sea shores, whole mountain tops. I bless every single one of you: with answers to your prayers; with calmness and peace of heart; with tranquility amidst turbulence; with safety in the middle of sorrow; with hope for yourself and happiness for your loved ones; for your family, your children if you have them, your neighbors which we all have; that person sitting on your left, that person sitting on your right.

(42:51)
I bless you in your discipleship. I bless you as you feel sorrow for the sins of the world; and the damage that gets down to people, because [inaudible] if not ours, and I hope not ours, something somebody else did to us. I bless you for sorrow in that regard and contrition; that such circumstances could exist among the children of men.

(43:16)
I bless you also for knowing that the answer, the only answer, the God given answer, the eternal answer, is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the very discipleship we profess and what we he’s determined to make of us, can kick and screaming as we go; he is determined to make us kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and Gods in our own right, in our own effort; to be as he is; and to therefore have yet another season in our life to bless people who are sorrowing, to help people who are struggling, to dry the tears from every eye, that those tears may be dried from yours; and that you might live with the hope and happiness that only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings. I pray and promise and seal a blessing to you in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

We had a discussion on this awhile back:

 

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I took ketamine three times for treatment of depression. The third time was a bad trip and I went home and hid under the covers shaking for two days. However, I was weirdly not depressed, even if terrorized. I intend to try it again if I ever get off of my other drug (I am now shocked I was ever allowed to try it, but the research showing the massive increase in problems with the interaction might be new).

If I do try it though, it will be with incremental increases so I can back off if it feels wrong (it was a downer of a day and I had distracted myself by researching the missing kids of the Daybell case as the news had just broken the day before, attitude apparently makes a big difference).

These days it seems that more options would be opened for you Calm.

[Kenngo1969]

Well, it's nice to know how much the disaffected are irritated by Elder Holland!   Good for him!   You go, Boy!

By the way, I should have disclosed one of my biases at the outset.  Though I have no experience with use of drugs that are, or that once were, illegal, and nearly no experience with the use of legal mind-altering substances ("Oh, crap.    This candy does have booze in it!  Oh, well!" ) from the experience I have had with drug use, being bombed out of my skull before, finally, being put under before being operated on a few times, I've found that, no, I really, really don't appreciate the sensation of not being in full control of my faculties and fully aware of my surroundings.

But, by all means, you go have your "transcendent experience" in the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom!    (No "bad trips," anyone?)

By the way, Mark, @mfbukowski, do you, by chance, have anything to tell us about what the members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom have to say?  

[rodheadlee]

33 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, it's nice to know how much the disaffected are irritated by Elder Holland!   Good for him!   You go, Boy!

By the way, I should have disclosed one of my biases at the outset.  Though I have no experience with use of drugs that are, or that once were, illegal, and nearly no experience with the use of legal mind-altering substances ("Oh, crap.    This candy does have booze in it!  Oh, well!" ) from the experience I have had with drug use, being bombed out of my skull before, finally, being put under before being operated on a few times, I've found that, no, I really, really don't appreciate the sensation of not being in full control of my faculties and fully aware of my surroundings.

But, by all means, you go have your "transcendent experience" in the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom!    (No "bad trips," anyone?)

By the way, Mark, @mfbukowski, do you, by chance, have anything to tell us about what the members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom have to say?  

I'm not Mark.

But I have extensive experience with psychedelic drugs back in the nineteen 70s. There is no way any psychedelic trip compares to a religious experience with the Holy Ghost. Also I can tell you marijuana is nothing like mushrooms and mushrooms are nothing like LSD. I visited Pluto on my first trip on L25 and I never left my bedroom, I had 2 babysitters. I was very fortunate to have come back to earth. 

The best buzz i ever had was cocaine and mushrooms. If your goal in life is to watch water run over the top of a dam I highly recommend it. Although it may cut down on your ability to communicate with other human beings.

I repeat there is no way any psychedelic trip can compare to communication with Heavenly Father through the Holy Spirit or directly.

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

We had a discussion on this awhile back:

 

Dang!  I was so excited that I had beaten @smac97 to the scoop on this story, but it turns out he had me beat by a full year and a half.