Mormons and Psychadelics--what the what?

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, DT_ said:

Why do you think the scriptures and prayer are not as successful in converting atheists?

My guess is scripture and prayer is something they already have ideas about or maybe even are very familiar with and it is harder to get through those negative assumptions and prior experiences if they had them about what prayer and scriptures are than it is the experience of psychedelics.  Or it could be the drugs force the mind to disconnect while the mind is able to resist for most atheists who are not interested in fully committing to religious meditation etc. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

  In essence, I think the ego gets in the way.  

To be clear, I am not talking about pride (although that can be a huge barrier too), but the ego, as in id, ego, and super ego.

[DT_]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is scripture and prayer is something they already have ideas about or maybe even are very familiar with and it is harder to get through those negative assumptions and prior experiences if they had them about what prayer and scriptures are than it is the experience of psychedelics.  Or it could be the drugs force the mind to disconnect while the mind is able to resist for most atheists who are not interested in fully committing to religious meditation etc. 

What is O'Connor doing wrong? Many people pray and read the scriptures for years and don't feel anything out of the ordinary.

 

 

[Calm]

Why do you think I would be able to tell?  I am not a mind reader. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, DT_ said:

Interesting. What makes the Church so special?

This was my answer 

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It is the true channel to God.  We see now through a broken mirror, but if we follow it consistently we can see God face to face.

 

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

I'm a bit confused.

I agree

If you can't keep track of your own arguments, it's not a good sign.

 

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, DT_ said:

What is O'Connor doing wrong? Many people pray and read the scriptures for years and don't feel anything out of the ordinary.

 

 

Not all have mystic spiritual experiences on psychedelics either.  

[DT_]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not all have mystic spiritual experiences on psychedelics either.  

Any idea why? Don't get me wrong, I don't know if the trip is real. I'm trying to find out. I am, however, convinced that psychedelic experiences are generally good and I agree the trip is a life-changing experience for many people. 

Please allow me to ask you. Do you believe in alien abductions? Some accounts describe benevolent beings who care about humanity. Two sisters are convinced aliens visited when they were children.  Do you think it's all related to the DMT elves people meet while tripping?

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why do you think I would be able to tell?  I am not a mind reader. 

I'm interested in your opinion.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, DT_ said:

Any idea why? Don't get me wrong, I don't know if the trip is real. I'm trying to find out. I am, however, convinced that psychedelic experiences are generally good and I agree the trip is a life-changing experience for many people. 

Please allow me to ask you. Do you believe in alien abductions? Some accounts describe benevolent beings who care about humanity. Two sisters are convinced aliens visited when they were children.  Do you think it's all related to the DMT elves people meet while tripping?

I'm interested in your opinion.

Not giving it for specific individuals. 

[DT_]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not giving it for specific individuals. 

Fair enough. Perhaps O'Connor doesn't know how to recognize a spiritual experience.

So please allow me to ask you. How would you know a spiritual experience isn't the result of a cognitive bias? Is there a way to scrutinize your own spiritual experiences without sharing them? We all have cognitive biases, so how can we be highly confident about our own spiritual experiences?  You don't have to answer, but an answer would be nice.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, DT_ said:

Fair enough. Perhaps O'Connor doesn't know how to recognize a spiritual experience.

So please allow me to ask you. How would you know a spiritual experience isn't the result of a cognitive bias? Is there a way to scrutinize your own spiritual experiences without sharing them? We all have cognitive biases, so how can we be highly confident about our own spiritual experiences?  You don't have to answer, but an answer would be nice.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

Fair enough. Perhaps O'Connor doesn't know how to recognize a spiritual experience.

So please allow me to ask you. How would you know a spiritual experience isn't the result of a cognitive bias? Is there a way to scrutinize your own spiritual experiences without sharing them? We all have cognitive biases, so how can we be highly confident about our own spiritual experiences?  You don't have to answer, but an answer would be nice.

I am not sure about being highly confident, except through exercising faith and acting as if the experience is true and then seeing the results.  

If one wants to know beforehand the effort, I would suggest looking at if the spiritual experience provided information you wouldn’t normally have access to or the probability of it occurring or if it gave you an answer you don’t like rather than one you do (if you don’t like it, it seems likely not be cognitive bias).  For examples of the first, I believe the spirit told me my daughter was diabetic in that one day we were preparing to leave on vacation and I sat down for a breather and suddenly I heard a voice/thought “your daughter has diabetes” and I knew instantly what to do, which was call my husband to pick up test strips on his way home from work.  I knew of diabetes symptoms already so perhaps my subconscious had picked up on what my consciousness hadn’t as the only symptom she had that I knew of was having to go to the bathroom frequently and I was thinking the issue was something else instead.  She had not told me she was drinking and eating more.  No one in the family or extended was diabetic type 1.  I knew a few people over the years who were type 1 diabetics though. I had minimal knowledge, but absolutely no expectation of my children getting diabetes. And yet suddenly I knew.  And had a certainty that I have never had before or since when researching possible health issues (though it was not the first or last time I correctly diagnosed a disorder).  The receptionist and doctor were astonished when I told them not only had we suspected, we had gone ahead and confirmed it to be sure we needed to go to the hospital (she was off the chart, so we went immediately to emergency to avoid her crashing as would likely have happened that night or the next day or maybe in a few days when we were out of the country).

An example of a highly improbable prayer being answered was my roommate and I praying because we were at our wit’s end about two other roommates who were having a nasty feud (got physical at one point).  We were alone in the apartment, so took the moment of quiet to pray together.  We had never prayed together like that before or since for that matter and we were just standing up when the door bell rang and the Relief Society President was there.  I can’t remember what explanation she gave, but it was the first and last time she ever visited our apartment and was more or less the first time she said anything more than in passing to either of us, iirc.  The fighting had been going on for weeks, so if she had learned about it, that she choose that one moment to come and not a week, day, or 15 minutes earlier or later….weird.  We were able to discuss the issue with her and iirc she passed on the info to the bishop or had a talk with our roommates herself.  Whichever it was, it stopped the fighting and they became relatively friendly after that.  It was a very strange experience as I and my roommate had very little interaction with church leaders, same with my other roommates.  Perhaps the RSP had heard of the fighting from someone else and it was not a random drop by visit just checking in like she said, but it was still weird timing with us just having said a prayer.

I have had a few other similar episodes that I am relatively confident are actual spiritual experiences, but I am aware even if low probability, it is still possible as a random event, but having several such myself seems pushing randomness to me.  

Edited August 4, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

How would you know a spiritual experience isn't the result of a cognitive bias? I

Oh my gosh.

How do you know cognitive bias is not the result of spiritual experience?

I have cognitive bias about not skinning live puppies for fun.

How do you know" in your gut" that things are wrong?

This just goes round and round. It is linguistic confusion! It goes nowhere.

[DT_]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I have had a few other similar episodes that I am relatively confident are actual spiritual experiences, but I am aware even if low probability, it is still possible as a random event, but having several such myself seems pushing randomness to me.  

Reading stories like yours helps me to consider the possibility of spiritual experiences. Undoubtedly, it was a miracle that you diagnosed your daughter before going on vacation. You were blessed that day.  

I'm thinking about the experiences you shared. I'm going to share some suggestions on how you can analyze your experiences yourself. This is not an attempt to minimize your experience. First, you would have to calculate the probability of type 1 diabetes after taking into account the risk factors (such as your age at delivery, race, and others). You have to think about other possible outcomes (such as diagnosing your daughter earlier, your vacation getting canceled for another reason, and so on).  Did the spirit specifically tell you it was Type 1 diabetes? The spirit could've simply told you that your daughter needed to go to a hospital without giving you a reason. The spirit telling you to call 911 immediately would've been better. Think about the fact that when you felt it was "diabetes" your emotions (and certainty) were strong. 

You have to think of all the events and coincidences that happen in your life. You have diagnosed others in the past, have you ever had any misses?  Think about the fact that the spirit doesn't warn all parents about imminent dangers (think of the Petty and Wilford families). Lastly, think about how commonly improbable events happen in your life. Do improbable things happen frequently? Improbable things happen all the time to many people, some people are luckier than others.   

Please don't answer the questions above. I'm simply giving you some suggestions on how to analyze your own experiences. In reality, I am simply sharing my doubts and the way I typically think about spiritual experiences.  However, I won't deny your spiritual experiences were impressive. I understand your experiences are valuable whether it was a coincidence or not. I hope to get many spiritual experiences myself someday. I won't comment on the other experience, I'm sure you get the idea.

Thank you for sharing. I won't comment on this thread anymore. You get the last word if you want. I got the answer I was looking for, I'll simply move on.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

Did the spirit specifically tell you it was Type 1 diabetes?

Yes.  Seriously.  I didn’t feel it was diabetes.  I heard it. And then I knew it.  Hearing it from doctors made me no more certain than I was at that moment.  They just filled in details of what life was now going to be like for us (boy, were they off).  I told my husband on the phone what happened, I told several others and it is written in several places.  One doctor asked me if I had medical training he was so shocked by how prepared we were.  I don’t.

The voice saying it was diabetes is why I knew we needed to get urine test strips to test her.  You don’t use those for anything but diabetes and ketone dieting.

There is no type one diabetes in any of our extended family as far as I am aware, past and present.  At that time, the only genetic issue I was aware my family had was restless legs disorder, my grandfather and dad had it bad and I had it worse due to doctors misdiagnosing it.  Besides my mother’s health issues due to a burst appendix almost killing her when a kid and a few minor allergies, we are otherwise considered a very healthy extended family.  Grandparents lived into their 90’s with no trips to the hospital or unusual illnesses.  Some dementia towards the end unfortunately.  Only in the last five years has it been discovered we all have a thyroid imbalance, which combined with rls explains quite a bit.

There was no need to call 911 because she was not in a diabetic crisis yet, was in no way fuzzy or dizzy and it could have traumatized her more if we had. The paramedics would have likely tested her blood sugar by pricking her fingers, testing her for ketones amounted to the same thing and she had a massive needle phobia (took several months to get past that and get her to test herself, years for her to give herself a shot).  She is very, very shy.  As it was, we waited three hours at the ER to be admitted, but we were able to turn it into kind of a game because we were there on our terms and my husband and I were very calm, which helped her a good deal.

And actually my emotions weren’t strong in the sense of excitement. I was simply certain of it and quite calm.  We were laughing about it with the doctor, which helped her feel safer.  After I heard the voice, I went and sat down with my daughter and had her tell me everything that was happening to her, asked her about symptoms I knew about, like if she was always thirsty.  Everything confirmed it for me.  After that she went off to play until her dad got there.  We tested her and when it was positive, then explained to her what was going on.  Packed some stuff for her to play with at the hospital and her favorite stuffie for comfort and took off.  Her birthday was the next day and she said it was actually the best birthday she ever had besides the fact of the diabetes and feeling like crap.  The nurses decorated her room and her whole Primary class (it was a huge one for outside of Utah) and then some all came to wish her happy birthday. She got lots more presents that year, lol.

It wasn’t until the reality that she would be having to take needles the rest of her life hit her and she freaked out and wanted to die instead, that it became hard.  But we were home from the hospital then.  The doctors insisted we go on the vacation as planned, just a few days late.  She had a wonderful time with her cousins.  Last time in her life she was really carefree…it happened 20 years exactly two days ago in fact.

I have a scientific education, including a degree in psychology.  I was gifted in math and physics, so I know all about probabilities and randomness, wishful thinking, placebo effects.  I am open to it being my subconscious rather than the spirit.  But if it was my subconscious, it worked in a very unusual way that day for me.  While I do have Eureka moments (though not with a voice speaking to me), I am always studying it out in my mind first and I instantly go into second guessing myself, playing off other possibilities, etc.  This time there was no preamble or wasted effort or loss of focus, so I could put my effort where it was needed most.

And as far as the fact that most prayers are not answered and certainly warnings are not always given ahead of time nor are healings miraculously curing disorders, I am so aware of that.  At this time our daughter not only has diabetes, she has had her thyroid removed, has constant migraines and frequent nausea, has fibromyalgia and is under the care of 5 specialists including for her severe depression and anxiety.  We blew it royally by listening to two doctors suggest certain medications that backfired big time.  While brilliant, she has never graduated junior high or anything else, is only friends with one person online and socializes with her brother’s family and a few of my and my husband’s siblings who come visit.  On top of that, my own disorders have gotten worse, so I can’t help her much these days.  So yeah, God hasn’t played the constant role of rescuer in our life.  Does that mean I should deny my experience of enlightenment even if it occurred only once in my life (and not the multiple times it had, though never so clearly)?  I don’t see any good reason why I should.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, DT_ said:

First, you would have to calculate the probability of…

Honestly someone telling me how I should be analyzing my own internal experiences in a more empirical way (maybe you should just ask first if something has been investigated already by the person before jumping into the lecture to avoid looking condescending; you seemed to have ignored what you quoted yourself as well as other comments***) who has just asked about possibility of alien abduction is disorienting.

***”but I am aware even if low probability, it is still possible as a random event, but having several such myself seems pushing randomness to me”

”if the spiritual experience provided information you wouldn’t normally have access to or the probability of it occurring”

”Perhaps the RSP had heard of the fighting from someone else and it was not a random drop by visit just checking in like she said”

 

[Calm]

https://www.monsterchildren.com/what-are-the-machine-elves/
 

“I was familiar with Terence McKenna’s tales of the “self-transforming machine elves” he encountered after smoking high doses of the drug… I admittedly chalked up these stories to some kind of West Coast eccentricity. Therefore, I was neither intellectually nor emotionally prepared for the frequency with which contact with these beings occurred in our studies, nor the often utterly bizarre nature of these experiences.’

His book then goes on to describe various entities met by his volunteers while in the DMT realm, including elves, insectoids, reptilian humanoids, and clowns to name just a few. Some of the volunteers were welcomed by these entities with open arms and a loving embrace, others were plunged into a dystopic world, in which experiments were performed upon them. What is most interesting to me about these reports is that many of the volunteers described similar beings, without having spoken to each other about their experiences.“

Maybe they didn’t talk to each other, but they talked to others familiar with the experience or read up on it. Plus it sounds like many of the entities are familiar already in a general way. 

Or it could be that the drug itself triggers certain areas of the brain that hold more humanoid images than other images. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

https://bigthink.com/the-present/dmt-beings/
 

“Kent said he’s encountered DMT elves during his own experiences, and that he’s even managed to have “rudimentary conversations of sorts” with them. In his personal experiments, he tested whether these beings could reveal to him any information that he himself would be incapable of knowing. They couldn’t.”

I have taken ketamine a few times. The last was a bad trip. I believe hell could be a very real possibility now, just stuck there in our own brains with the switch on negative emotion stuck at the highest level. Though I knew exactly what caused it and why, I hid under the covers and shook for a couple of days after. 
 

For both the good and bad trips the colors are more alive and real than the usual colors, even the most saturated ones. The first experience of those colors was absolutely glorious, it was like I was on an amusement ride and passing through these mounds and billows of what color really was. 
 

And I was on a beginning dose. I can imagine a more intense experience would feel even more immediate, more intimate, more real. 

[pogi]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.monsterchildren.com/what-are-the-machine-elves/
 

“I was familiar with Terence McKenna’s tales of the “self-transforming machine elves” he encountered after smoking high doses of the drug… I admittedly chalked up these stories to some kind of West Coast eccentricity. Therefore, I was neither intellectually nor emotionally prepared for the frequency with which contact with these beings occurred in our studies, nor the often utterly bizarre nature of these experiences.’

His book then goes on to describe various entities met by his volunteers while in the DMT realm, including elves, insectoids, reptilian humanoids, and clowns to name just a few. Some of the volunteers were welcomed by these entities with open arms and a loving embrace, others were plunged into a dystopic world, in which experiments were performed upon them. What is most interesting to me about these reports is that many of the volunteers described similar beings, without having spoken to each other about their experiences.“

Maybe they didn’t talk to each other, but they talked to others familiar with the experience or read up on it. Plus it sounds like many of the entities are familiar already in a general way. 

Or it could be that the drug itself triggers certain areas of the brain that hold more humanoid images than other images. 

Nah, its more likely that there really are "elves, insectoids, reptilian humanoids, and clown" extraterrestrials that are super loving and embracing of some while performing cruel dystopic experiments on others.  The only way we can perceive them and communicate with them is through ingesting psychedelics.  

I am surprised at the level of caution @DT_ uses in evaluating the reliability of spiritual experience, while seemingly throwing all caution to the wind in accepting visual hallucinations as something other than hallucinations. 

You are exactly right calm, I guarantee that most people who experiment with these drugs don't go into it completely blind.  They usually have done some research on other peoples experiences so they know what to expect.  Anyone who googles experiences DMT experiences is going to learn about this phenomenon, priming them for it. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Honestly someone telling me how I should be analyzing my own internal experiences in a more empirical way (maybe you should just ask first if something has been investigated already by the person before jumping into the lecture to avoid looking condescending; you seemed to have ignored what you quoted yourself as well as other comments***) who has just asked about possibility of alien abduction is disorienting.

It is also barking up the wrong tree and a category error.

The point of spiritual experience is that is PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE. It NEVER measures up to the objective criteria of science which automatically excludes the subjective.  Scientific evidence is always shareable, spiritual experience is never fully sharable.

And as you know taking advice on spiritual experience from someone who has never had one seems inadvisable.

But you know all that.  My comments may help others.

And in fact I think our friend has had them, all people do, he just seems to want to talk himself out of them.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

You are exactly right calm, I guarantee that most people who experiment with these drugs don't go into it completely blind.  They usually have done some research on other peoples experiences so they know what to expect.  Anyone who googles experiences DMT experiences is going to learn about this phenomenon, priming them for it. 

Exactly!  The first time I dropped acid, I was totally aware of what could/might happen. One of my buddies wanted to go for a walk, so we did, but finally the traffic and confusion of NY streets started freaking me out, so we went back to my place, he left, and I went to bed with the covers over my head.

I was still pretty freaky, but ok because I knew I was safe and I kept saying to myself "It's only the drug,  It's only the drug.....".

I knew better the next time, so it went better.

But still NOTHING like spiritual experiences I had later, clearly marked with infinite peace and clarity.

[DT_]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have a scientific education, including a degree in psychology.  I was gifted in math and physics, so I know all about probabilities and randomness, wishful thinking, placebo effects.  I am open to it being my subconscious rather than the spirit.  But if it was my subconscious, it worked in a very unusual way that day for me.  While I do have Eureka moments (though not with a voice speaking to me), I am always studying it out in my mind first and I instantly go into second guessing myself, playing off other possibilities, etc.  This time there was no preamble or wasted effort or loss of focus, so I could put my effort where it was needed most.

Okay. I'll comment on this thread one last time.

I'm impressed! Your background increases the probability that it was not a cognitive bias.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

 We blew it royally by listening to two doctors suggest certain medications that backfired big time.  While brilliant, she has never graduated junior high or anything else, is only friends with one person online and socializes with her brother’s family and a few of my and my husband’s siblings who come visit.  On top of that, my own disorders have gotten worse, so I can’t help her much these days.  So yeah, God hasn’t played the constant role of rescuer in our life.  Does that mean I should deny my experience of enlightenment even if it occurred only once in my life (and not the multiple times it had, though never so clearly)?  I don’t see any good reason why I should.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I understand you don't have a good reason to deny your experience.

[DT_]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

***”but I am aware even if low probability, it is still possible as a random event, but having several such myself seems pushing randomness to me”

And I am aware it could be real. There's no reason to rule out spiritual experiences. However, I'm not convinced at this moment. Let me share the story of Stoltmann, a man who won $768 million dollars playing the lottery. Stoltmann says he had an unnatural lucky feeling and smiled at a surveillance camera when he was buying his ticket. Stoltmann probably thinks that God helped him win. For many of the people who win the Powerball, there is no other explanation.

I hope you understand it is not easy to believe, at least not for me.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I am surprised at the level of caution @DT_ uses in evaluating the reliability of spiritual experience, while seemingly throwing all caution to the wind in accepting visual hallucinations as something other than hallucinations.

The trip and alien abductions are interesting possibilities. I'm not convinced the DMT trip and alien abductions are real. I am doing some research on DMT and I wanted to know your opinion.

Alright, that is all I needed to say now. You are welcome to keep sharing, I'll just read.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, DT_ said:

hope you understand it is not easy to believe, at least not for me.

I never tell my stories in order for someone to believe so I do not expect you to believe. Nothing that happens to me should ever convince anyone else to believe. It doesn’t even convince my daughter, who is agnostic as she is all too well aware of how good and bad internal experiences may just be a result of biochemicals. 
 

I tell my experiences when people ask for examples of spiritual experiences that I have a relatively high confidence level in.  If they are asking because they want to be convinced, they are asking the wrong person. Ask God, not other humans that can’t get inside your head. 

And I also know not everyone is capable of experiencing the spirit or recognizing it if they do, like my daughter. I was on medication that shut off my awareness of the spirit for a few years. Three days after I stopped taking it, I noticed I was suddenly enjoying the feel of water against my skin again. A few days later the sense of an oppressive mass in my brain went away completely and I felt God’s presence in my life again. If meds can do that, I assume natural body states can as well, such as clinical depression or anxiety. 
 

I never judge those who say they have made the effort, but do not believe they have encountered God in any fashion.  I take them at their word that they tried.   It may not be an issue they are responsible for that prevents them, any more than the man born blind was a sinner or his parents sinned according to Jesus. 

[mfbukowski]

Error

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

I have a scientific education, including a degree in psychology.  I was gifted in math and physics, so I know all about probabilities and randomness, wishful thinking, placebo effects.  I am open to it being my subconscious rather than the spirit.

What if your UNconscious ( the word more commonly used now) IS "the Spirit"?   🤔

Yet again, it's all terminology. Take it from a student in the philosophy of language.