Mormons and Psychadelics--what the what?

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Dang!  I was so excited that I had beaten @smac97 to the scoop on this story, but it turns out he had me beat by a full year and a half.

Huh.  I had totally forgotten about this.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

These days it seems that more options would be opened for you Calm.

Unfortunately I have tried most and they don’t work at all or have major side effects.  I am hoping to switch by the end of July to a much safer version of my main drug  (that also is likely to take me off the daily roller coaster of waking up sick yay!) as I have recently found out I am in the high risk category for overdose even with the low amount I take due to other drugs I take (I am right on the borderline though and I have been taking this amount for 20 years, so not panicking, just getting off of Ambien and once that is done, will go to the safer drug).  

That feeling I got when trying medical marijuana that if I didn’t pay close attention to breathing, I might forget how to and stop…yeah, that wasn’t just imagination apparently, but a real possibility (not that I would forget, but I was close to shutting down).  And that was on a low dose of marijuana.  So I need to be careful and not experiment even under doctors’ care at this time of my life as it looks like I am getting more sensitive, not less to drug interactions.  Have new doctors who specialize in pain, so things are looking better though it is so much slower to get off a drug then it used to be.  Even 5 years ago, I had few withdrawal symptoms and would only take a couple of days when taking drug vacations.

Just sharing this info to let people know be very proactive in studying up  and keeping current with research on the drugs you take and their interactions.  I had three doctors think there was no big deal about trying out medical marijuana for pain, depression, and nausea with my other drugs (it did help with those quite well for about 4 months, then I was getting so sick from it).  Oops.  Thank goodness I didn’t like the loopy feeling.

I am looking forward to when we get the vagus nerve stimulators they have in Europe.  There are some disorders they are being used for now in the US, but mine (RLS and Fibromyalgia and the attendant pain and depression) just getting looked at.

Quote

New, noninvasive vagus nerve stimulation devices, which don't require surgical implantation, have been approved in Europe to treat epilepsy, depression and pain. A noninvasive device that stimulates the vagus nerve was recently approved by the Food and Drug Administration for the treatment of cluster headaches in the United States.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stimulation/about/pac-20384565

Edited June 29, 2022 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

... RLS and Fibromyalgia and the attendant pain and depression) just getting looked at. ...

Man, you've got some gnarly problems, there, woman!   Me?    Problems?  I got no problems!  

I suppose, though, that the Great Philosopher, Colonel Sherman T. Potter of M*A*S*H fame, was right when he said, "All we can do is hit what's pitched."  

All the Best,

-Ken

[Calm]

Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

Man, you've got some gnarly problems, there, woman!   Me?    Problems?  I got no problems!  

I suppose, though, that the Great Philosopher, Colonel Sherman T. Potter of M*A*S*H fame, was right when he said, "All we can do is hit what's pitched."  

All the Best,

-Ken

It is remarkable what the body will do if it doesn’t get enough sleep for, say, four decades…

[Kenngo1969]

After tracing the history of psychedelic use among the native population of Mexico, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent writes:

Quote

Steve Urquhart knew little of this history in April 2020, pacing downtown one morning after his latest psychedelic ceremony, the twin spires of the LDS Church and the Utah State Capitol piercing the dawn sky.

“Twin spires of the … Church and the … Capitol”? In some parallel universe of which I am unaware, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent might be considered a good writer. She might even be a good writer … in this universe … if she stopped trying so damn hard to spice up her prose. Doesn’t she think the story is engaging enough on its own without her trying so damn hard to dress it up? And if she does think it’s engaging enough on its own, why is she trying to dress it up? It seems to me that one of the cardinal rules of good writing is, don’t get in the way of the story you’re trying to tell. She’s trying way too hard.

Quote

All he knew was that he was a tiny part of something magnificent — something infinitely bigger than regular reality.

Huh. I thought that was the whole point of the “child of God” and “god in embryo” (my phrases, both, in quotes) things in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Am I missing something? Oh, yeah … the patriarchy or whatever. I forgot. Ah, well. Carry on!

Quote

 While they [members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom] may be genuine, and also hold regular integration sessions so members can process their trips communally, the organization is also exceptionally laissez-faire.

What’s this? Finally, at least a hint of skepticism from our intrepid (if clueless) correspondent? Hmm. Perhaps she hasn’t forgotten all about journalistic ethics and integrity after all.

Quote

Although [Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim] Gill admits he has known Urquhart since the former senator’s days in office, he dismisses the idea that Urquhart is getting a free pass based on any special privileges. “I don’t think a district attorney … [ellipses in original] should ever use the power of their office in a way that is gratuitous, or even in an arbitrary way, that would violate the constitutional protected rights of its citizens,” he says. Gill is quick to point out that in a hypothetical case of physical or sexual abuse, religious protections are irrelevant. But for now, the same reason a man can take multiple wives in Utah is the same reason another can operate a psilocybin church in broad daylight.

Huh. There’s no bigamy statute on the books in Utah? Could’ve fooled me!

Quote

 

Title 76, Chapter 7, § 101, Utah Code Annotated: Bigamy – Penalty – Defense.

(1) An individual is guilty of bigamy if:

(a) the individual purports to marry another individual; and

(b) knows or reasonably should know that one or both of the individuals described in Subsection (1)(a) are legally married to another individual.

(2) An individual who violates Subsection (1) is guilty of an infraction.

(3) An individual is guilty of a third degree felony if the individual induces bigamy … [The long list of felony statutes included here that someone may commit bigamy to facilitate is omitted]

 

Or is Mr. Gill saying he just won’t bother to enforce it?

Our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent writes of a visit she made to General Conference on her last Sunday in town:

Quote

Thanks to Steve Hunter, an active bishop in the church when I met him, I have a ticket — and a guide. Whisking us downtown in his sleek black Tesla, Hunter, who once ran Republican Mia Love’s successful bid for Congress, waffles between criticism of the LDS church as a modern institution and great affection for his fellow Saints — a delicate position that seems to cause him great wincing pain at times, and none at all at others. Religion “creates this security, but the security is also a prison,” he reflects. “It’s not intentional, but it’s hard for people to see the bars around them.”

Heavens! With “friends” like this, I can hardly help but ask, why does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints need enemies? Or perhaps Bishop Hunter would take issue with how he was treated in the piece?

Quote

Hunter knows a thing or two about double lives.

For clarification, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent barely mentions anything anywhere else in the piece about “double lives” before this passing reference. I can only surmise that, apparently, she simply takes it for granted that all people who purport to be religious are living one, putting on one face on Sunday while saving another for the rest of the week.

Then, our intrepid correspondent continues:

Quote

In 2020, his [Bishop Steve Hunter's] 72-year-old uncle, who was gay but had remained in the church, took his own life. Two weeks later, the church called Hunter to be bishop. Still grieving, Hunter accepted, but he was concealing a secret of his own: He occasionally takes psychedelics, and postulates Joseph Smith may have, too — a theory to which Hunter is far from alone in subscribing.

Yeah. Um … the historical record contains no references whatsoever to involvement with psychedelics on Joseph Smith’s part. The case is built on a couple of vague references in the historical record that be read as referring to psychedelics only if one strains really hard to do so, the notion that it is impossible for someone in his or her right mind to have a supernatural experience, and the notion that someone who takes a drug-induced “trip” must have had much the same experience as someone else who reports having had a genuine spiritual experience. (By the way, still, scarcely any reference at all to “bad trips”?)

Quote

[T]here is a narrow opening in the Word of Wisdom, the Book of Mormon [sic] that prohibits “hot drinks” and tobacco but also encourages “good herbs” and a low-meat diet.

"Herb" is a slang term used to refer to Marijuana.  A slang term!  These people really expect us to believe that Julia Child kept Lovely Mary Jane in her spice rack, right next to the tarragon???     And, oh my heavens! Once again, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent reveals her ignorance. A thirty-second search on churchofjesuschrist.org would reveal to anyone who is interested how much the Word of Wisdom and the Book of Mormon have to do with one another. Perhaps that’s the problem? Perhaps our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent really isn’t interested? Ah, well! In any case, maybe research is for sissies!

Our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent’s host, Bishop Hunter, apparently has tried ayahuasca, as well:

Quote

In one of his most powerful ayahuasca ceremonies, a giant female serpent appeared to him …

Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnd … he knew she was female because … why? She spoke to him in a high-pitched, breathy voice? He saw her—Oh, never mind! “A giant female serpent liberated me from the patriarchy! Can I get a ‘Hallelujah!’? Can I get an ‘Amen!’?”

Our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent describes attending a meeting of what, apparently, is the equivalent of the Relief Society in the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom:

Quote

All five women are discovering, with the help of psychedelics, what it means to connect with themselves, and one another. From Huntington’s perspective, the LDS Church systematically robbed them of that.

Huh. To each, his or her own, I suppose. I wonder, is the experience of people who, perhaps, have had little exposure to life outside the so-called “Mormon Corridor” different from those who convert and who emigrate here? I think it might be. It’s a pity that our members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom Relief Society never saw how their potential, and the potential of others, as Children of God and goddesses in embryo is meant to deepen human relationships.

Tess Huntington describes how she became while on a mission to Brazil and received what she felt was a revelation that she needed to go home, only to have that experience contravened by her mission president. I agree with her that her mission president probably acted inappropriately in this instance.

Later on, therapist and apparent leader in the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom Relief Society, Nicki Wharton says that the reason

Quote

“psychedelics are so healing for post-Mormon women” [is because they] ... often produce a feeling of tapping into one’s own intuition, or higher self. [Ellipses added.]

Well, I guess if being Daughters of God and goddesses in embryo isn’t enough to do the trick … And again, I suppose the “higher self” is sufficient … if the aim, rather than becoming what God wants me to be, is, instead, to become what I want to be.

Then, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent describes her own “trip” on the Magic Carpet with the members of the Relief Society of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom, how she met the Goddess of the Universe, who showed her “babies being born, seeds sprouting, and waterfalls gushing,” which she takes as a reaffirmation of the Divine Feminine.

Allegedly, one of the members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom Relief Society tells our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent of receiving the jarring news of an announcement that “no longer” are members of the Church of Jesus Christ to pray to Heavenly Mother—as though this is some recent development and not simply another in a long string of developments in a decades-long ongoing saga or [for some] controversy.

Our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent turns, then, to quoting two (equally clueless?) hosts of a podcast, “Mormons on ’Shrooms.” (The actual title kept both of the syllables of the third word, but I’m too lazy to do that …)

Quote

Repression is a feeling that Mike and Doug know intimately; it came up again and again in my conversations with post-Mormon men. From an early age, Mike reflects via Zoom, from his home in Los Angeles, LDS children are taught that “natural man is an enemy to God,” and “your body is the enemy.”

Oh, Lord! If that isn’t the most tortured misapplication of Mosiah 3:19 I’ve ever heard, I’m hard pressed to come up with one that’s even more tortured. Are Latter-day Saints ascetics?  Besides, haven’t these Brethren ever read Doctrine and Covenants 88:15, “The spirit and the body are the soul of man”? And don’t they believe in the resurrection?

Quote

“And you think of what m@$turb@tion is, like it’s this beautiful connection with yourself to explore your own body,” ponders Mike.

Huh. So it’s not just hornily jerking off, then?  Who knew?  

Quote

 

To shame someone not to masturbate, is to insert “a barrier. Like, ‘No, you can’t even get in touch with yourself.’”

All those barriers dissolved on his first mushroom trip with Doug. Not having any idea of what to expect, he suddenly felt his “soul snap back into place.” “Oh”, he recalls thinking, “this is what it feels like to be Mike.” 

 

Huh. So I have to use ’Shrooms to know myself, then? Who knew?  

To conclude, the piece quotes Urquhart further:

Quote

“[W]e are connecting. And when we connect, we rise, like the mushroom. We are connecting and rising, and we are healing.”

And still nothing about the potential for bad trips. It’s all peace, love, enlightenment [insert other New Age garbage here] yada-yada-yada ...

So, there you have it, Ladies and Gentlemen, Brothers and Sisters.  I fought my better judgment with every fiber of my being to avoid doing so, but I ...

Endured to ...

THE END

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately I have tried most and they don’t work at all or have major side effects.  I am hoping to switch by the end of July to a much safer version of my main drug  (that also is likely to take me off the daily roller coaster of waking up sick yay!) as I have recently found out I am in the high risk category for overdose even with the low amount I take due to other drugs I take (I am right on the borderline though and I have been taking this amount for 20 years, so not panicking, just getting off of Ambien and once that is done, will go to the safer drug).  

That feeling I got when trying medical marijuana that if I didn’t pay close attention to breathing, I might forget how to and stop…yeah, that wasn’t just imagination apparently, but a real possibility (not that I would forget, but I was close to shutting down).  And that was on a low dose of marijuana.  So I need to be careful and not experiment even under doctors’ care at this time of my life as it looks like I am getting more sensitive, not less to drug interactions.  Have new doctors who specialize in pain, so things are looking better though it is so much slower to get off a drug then it used to be.  Even 5 years ago, I had few withdrawal symptoms and would only take a couple of days when taking drug vacations.

Just sharing this info to let people know be very proactive in studying up  and keeping current with research on the drugs you take and their interactions.  I had three doctors think there was no big deal about trying out medical marijuana for pain, depression, and nausea with my other drugs (it did help with those quite well for about 4 months, then I was getting so sick from it).  Oops.  Thank goodness I didn’t like the loopy feeling.

I am looking forward to when we get the vagus nerve stimulators they have in Europe.  There are some disorders they are being used for now in the US, but mine (RLS and Fibromyalgia and the attendant pain and depression) just getting looked at.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stimulation/about/pac-20384565

We must be reading the same articles or similar, I read something about the vagus nerve today.

Also, saw something about L-Serine capsules/powders, it is suppose to help with Alzheimer's, ALS and other diseases. In my reading today, it mentions that it helps with sleep, as long as you take it 3 to 4 hour before bedtime. But that was one review. Sorry the cannabis didn't help, but glad you're trying other avenues. 

Best wishes lady!

https://draxe.com/nutrition/l-serine-benefits/

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Or is Mr. Gill saying he just won’t bother to enforce it?

Or was that added by the reporter for spice.  It isn’t in quotes or “Gill said…(paraphrase).

Quote

Twin spires of the … Church and the … Capitol”? In some parallel universe of which I am unaware, our intrepid (if clueless?) correspondent might be considered a good writer. 

But not a good reporter.  Or were they using it figuratively?  But then pacing downtown and piercing the dawn doesn’t make sense.

Anyway, the Capital is a dome, it doesn’t have a spire and if they are taking about the SL temple, it has 6 or 7, doesn’t it?

Edited June 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

We must be reading the same articles or similar, I read something about the vagus nerve today.

Also, saw something about L-Serine capsules/powders, it is suppose to help with Alzheimer's, ALS and other diseases. In my reading today, it mentions that it helps with sleep, as long as you take it 3 to 4 hour before bedtime. But that was one review. Sorry the cannabis didn't help, but glad you're trying other avenues. 

Best wishes lady!

https://draxe.com/nutrition/l-serine-benefits/

I have tried Serine iirc, I don’t think it helped.  I will have to check though, it could have been theanine or however you spell that.

Same best wishes to you, my dear.   

Edited June 30, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, it's nice to know how much the disaffected are irritated by Elder Holland!   Good for him!   You go, Boy!

By the way, I should have disclosed one of my biases at the outset.  Though I have no experience with use of drugs that are, or that once were, illegal, and nearly no experience with the use of legal mind-altering substances ("Oh, crap.    This candy does have booze in it!  Oh, well!" ) from the experience I have had with drug use, being bombed out of my skull before, finally, being put under before being operated on a few times, I've found that, no, I really, really don't appreciate the sensation of not being in full control of my faculties and fully aware of my surroundings.

But, by all means, you go have your "transcendent experience" in the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom!    (No "bad trips," anyone?)

By the way, Mark, @mfbukowski, do you, by chance, have anything to tell us about what the members of the Church of the Holy Magic Mushroom have to say?  

Any experience with psychedelics I had in the past happened at least 12 years before I joined the church, and I also did not join the church until I had fully given up coffee and tobacco and alcohol.

The only reason I have ever referred to it is to express the opinion that what one experiencs IS "reality" to them, while it is happening, but then one has to analyze and evaluate the circumstances under which the experience occurred.

I do not condone or value any psychedelic experiences, but I highly value strong experiences I have had which I am certain came from God.

The differences are so obvious that one should not even have to mention them- they are common sense.  First, psychedelics require on DOING something to create the experience.   One takes a pill, or smokes something, or does something to induce the experience

This does not happen when God causes the experience, obviously.   Inducing such an experience is obviously the key- one puts one's faith in a chemical to induce a vision rather than using prayer and faith in God, and allowing God to determine whether or not such an experience is correct  at this time for your advancement spiritually or not 

One also generally knows that one is "on" something.   A portion of my "trip" included scary and paranoid feelings, and I realized that I was on LSD and that was the likely cause of the feelings.   I went to bed and waited for it to pass, knowing I was safe there.

Read my Rorty quote yet again.   It says that one cannot know the "causes" of "experiences of reality" yet with psychedelics, one always knows the "CAUSE" which is what one took some time before the experience.

Yes sometimes people who take  too much of the drug will completely loose awareness of anything beyond the trip itself.  But even in such cases, when one comes down they will know that they were close to "overdosing".

By definition such trips cannot be "transcendent" in any way- because one knows the cause!!

I have a deep testimony of the church- and am a fan of Elder Holland.  Stay away from anything unprescribed that changes your mental state or artificially induces feelings of any kind.

Edited June 30, 2022 by mfbukowski
had to add "unprescribed". Thought that would be obvious.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Huh. There’s no bigamy statute on the books in Utah? Could’ve fooled me!

Quote

I don't like Utah much anymore.

From my POV, it's big a' me just to enter the State!

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Stay away from anything that changes your mental state or artificially induces feelings of any kind.

This would not go well.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This would not go well.

Yes, some of us survive because our mental states are altered.  

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

Yes, some of us survive because our mental states are altered.  

You can have my amphetamines when you pry them from my trembling, desperate hands.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This would not go well.

Oh my!   I am waiting with bated breath!

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, some of us survive because our mental states are altered.  

Oh thanks I get it now.

Words.   I will fix it - obviously I meant drugs which are not prescribed.

But that is an interesting idea which I will not explore.   In the context what does "altered" mean?

Yeah, we should not go there I guess.  It's endless to discuss some words

Edited June 30, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Chum]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can have my amphetamines when you pry them from my trembling, desperate hands.

I can be a stalwart guard over your pitiful form but only until 3pm or so.

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my!   I am waiting with bated breath!

I would be even more depressed and morbid which might be entertaining to others but is probably not mentally healthy for me.

So really it is a selfish “not go over well” since I am probably the only one who benefits.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Chum said:

I can be a stalwart guard over your pitiful form but only until 3pm or so.

Leave me! PROTECT THE DRUGS! THEY ARE ALL THAT MATTERS!

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Leave me! PROTECT THE DRUGS! THEY ARE ALL THAT MATTERS!

I'm sorry. It's after 3pm. I am no longer paying attention to .. idk something.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm sorry. It's after 3pm. I am no longer paying attention to .. idk something.

No problem, I will just double dose and stay up all night. Must protect mental health!

Edited June 30, 2022 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm sorry. It's after 3pm. I am no longer paying attention to .. idk something.

😆

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would be even more depressed and morbid which might be entertaining to others but is probably not mentally healthy for me.

So really it is a selfish “not go over well” since I am probably the only one who benefits.

Ok

I know how those things can be

[The Nehor]

In other drug news the state of Minnesota sort of accidentally legalized weed edibles while regulating other THC products. It is not clear if the GOP was tricked or if the Dems just didn’t realize the full effect of the law themselves.

https://www.startribune.com/edibles-and-beverages-laced-with-cannabis-ingredient-thc-to-become-legal-friday-in-minnesota/600186638/

LOL

Edited July 2, 2022 by The Nehor

[Lemuel]

On 6/28/2022 at 8:44 PM, Calm said:

I took ketamine three times for treatment of depression. The third time was a bad trip and I went home and hid under the covers shaking for two days. However, I was weirdly not depressed, even if terrorized. I intend to try it again if I ever get off of my other drug (I am now shocked I was ever allowed to try it, but the research showing the massive increase in problems with the interaction might be new).

If I do try it though, it will be with incremental increases so I can back off if it feels wrong (it was a downer of a day and I had distracted myself by researching the missing kids of the Daybell case as the news had just broken the day before, attitude apparently makes a big difference).

Microdosing shrooms has gotten me off antidepressants.  I'm grateful for this.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Microdosing shrooms has gotten me off antidepressants.  I'm grateful for this.

I congratulate you. Was it on your own or with medical oversight? Don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.  Just curious about what is being done in the field.

It is always good to hear someone has beaten the beast or at least muzzled it some.  I was really hoping Ketamine would do it for me and we are planning on trying again with my daughter once her migraines are taken care of.  I am impressed with the work they are doing with alternative drugs.  I am grinding my teeth my drug I can’t survive without prevents using it….at least wisely.

The brain is a fantastical object.