BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Both my degrees are from the Y.

Sometimes I wish I'd finished my doctorate, even though I wouldn't be using it for a career in academia (which, lets face it, is the only reason to have a PhD in accounting).

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ttribe said:

Sometimes I wish I'd finished my doctorate, even though I wouldn't be using it for a career in academia (which, lets face it, is the only reason to have a PhD in accounting).

People tend to make huge assumptions about me when they see my resume. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No you don't know where your tithing money goes.  The church does not tell anyone this.  But let's drop it so as not to derail the thread.

I meant that I know that some of it goes to BYU.  But yeah, this line of discussion isn't at all relevant to what I said so best to drop it.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I think you're missing the point. There's nothing remotely homophobic (or even "homophonic") about that question.

So if that is what she characterizes as "the most homophobic thing I have ever seen at BYU," then maybe she is prone to exaggeration. 

 

who knows but if so then maybe the OP is also blowing this way out of proportion

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Duncan said:

who knows but if so then maybe the OP is also blowing this way out of proportion

Smac blow something out of proportion? Perish the thought!

[ttribe]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

People tend to make huge assumptions about me when they see my resume. 

Yes, I've commented elsewhere in an older thread that I get stigmatized from time to time when I state my education for my testimony as an expert witness. I've seen literal eye-rolls in the courtroom when I've said I have a Master of Accountancy from BYU.

[Peacefully]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Hence my relief that my kids went elsewhere. The church’s treatment of gay members was a big reason why some of my children have left. 

Same here. 

[filovirus]

I don’t like to bring this up because when I do it feels like self aggrandizing. I do not want it to come across this way here.

While I was at BYU, I was awarded a “multicultural scholarship” from the university simply for being Hispanic. It was full tuition. To maintain it all I needed was to carry a 2.0 gpa. I used it for both my fresh and soph years there. Between my soph and jr years, I thought long and hard about it. To me it didn’t seem fair that I was only getting it for my cultural background. For me, it just didn’t feel right. It made me uncomfortable that someone was thinking that I couldn’t perform at the same level as everybody else. So I gave it up. I got a job. And I finished my last two years paying for it myself. 

That someone who feels that strongly about hiding honor code violations (assuming that she was) to exploit the system just makes me sad. I know it happens way more often than we hear, and that makes me sadder. Especially at a church run school where the students are expected to know better. This woman should have taken her lumps and transferred elsewhere. Instead she made a mockery of the institution and the honor code.

If we find that she didn’t break hc violations I retract my statements. But it does sound as if she admitted to doing so.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

People tend to make huge assumptions about me when they see my resume. 

It doesn’t help my case that I live in Utah and have six kids. I’m going to have to get a tattoo. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Yes, I've commented elsewhere in an older thread that I get stigmatized from time to time when I state my education for my testimony as an expert witness. I've seen literal eye-rolls in the courtroom when I've said I have a Master of Accountancy from BYU.

You could get a Ph.D from some school known for partying to counter balance it….  

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It doesn’t help my case that I live in Utah and have six kids. I’m going to have to get a tattoo. 

I don’t live in Utah, but I do have six kids. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Yes, I've commented elsewhere in an older thread that I get stigmatized from time to time when I state my education for my testimony as an expert witness. I've seen literal eye-rolls in the courtroom when I've said I have a Master of Accountancy from BYU.

And the sad thing is that academically the school is sound. 

Humans are judgemental jerks.  This seems to be equally true for the ones that agree with BYU as well as the ones who don't.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

You could get a Ph.D from some school known for partying to counter balance it….  

The people probably wouldn't have any eye rolling for a degree from a school like that. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And the sad thing is that academically the school is sound. 

Humans are judgemental jerks.  This seems to be equally true for the ones that agree with BYU as well as the ones who don't.

I got a good education at BYU. No complaints from me about that. 

[ttribe]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

You could get a Ph.D from some school known for partying to counter balance it….  

Well, I was two years into my PhD at the University of Arizona when I decided to go back into practice. And, my undergrad is from Arizona State, so there's that.

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And the sad thing is that academically the school is sound. 

Humans are judgemental jerks.  This seems to be equally true for the ones that agree with BYU as well as the ones who don't.

My Master's program at BYU was phenomenal. But, most people don't know that.

[carbon dioxide]

8 hours ago, Vanguard said:

I have no problem with her sexual orientation. I have a MASSIVE problem with her rubbing it in the face of the very institution/church she profited from due to her membership.

She is just sharing her "authentic self" with everyone.  Character is more than just sexual orientation.  We all know what kind of person she is by the decisions she has made and she had declared it full view.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Vanguard said:

This immediately reminded me of how Hollywood used to keep their 'pecadillos' under wraps largely away from the public eye. At some point, it became more in vogue to parade these activities for the world to see as it enlargens/ed the celebrity's cache. My parents and I used to talk about this. "Better to keep these things private" my father would say. It's the very same thing here. 

Ah, but if it increases "one's cred with one's crowd," many people see that as, by far, the more important thing.  And, even better, if one can increase "one's cred with one's crowd," while, at the same time, sticking one's finger in the eyes of the Big, Bad, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of its flagship educational institution, all the better.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It doesn’t help my case that I live in Utah and have six kids. I’m going to have to get a tattoo. 

You party animal, you!

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, I was two years into my PhD at the University of Arizona when I decided to go back into practice. And, my undergrad is from Arizona State, so there's that.

I don't know where, exactly, ASU is on the "Party School" list, but I would imagine that it "represents(!!!)"  In high school, I got to go to a couple of drama competitions on the campus of ASU during the dead of Utah's winters: 60-70 degrees there, 20-30 degrees here ...  Also, while we were waiting at one of those competitions for the winners to be announced, for some reason, a big group of folks started chanting "U of A!  U of A!  U of A!" and a representative of our host went to the microphone and said, "Will all of you who were chanting 'U of A' raise your hand?  Thanks.  Now, will all of you who were chanting 'U of A' who want a trophy please raise your hand?"  Whereupon, laughter ensued.  It was pretty funny.  Also, those were my first and second times on a plane.  I'm glad I got a chance to fly before I left on my mission: It made the experience a little easier ... not much, but a little.

Aaaaah!  Good times!

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Vanguard said:

It's troubling that another would end up behaving in ways that run contrary to the code. As I said in an earlier post, I'm sure there are thousands who have done so (of which I am one). It's another issue when someone parades this reality during the graduation ceremony. If indeed it is found that she really does mean that she broke the code as well the LOC, then I am sorely disappointed in her character. 

I really agree with this. I don't think any graduation ceremony is the place to push out some personal agenda no matter what it is.  And I feel this way for BYU and any other college.

[gopher]

I noticed the #exmo and #exmormon hashtags she added to her Tiktok video so it looks like the church has lost another returned missionary (she served in Oregon).  It seems enthusiastically embracing the LGBT movement is often toxic to testimonies of members of the church.  I'm not bothered by her flashing the flag at graduation - it's much more respectful than those activists that wrote "God is gay" on the sidewalks last fall at BYU.

But her story isn't as interesting as this top story of the week from Modesto, CA:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-arrested-climbing-onto-damaging-164305206.html

I think we can all relate to this guy - sometimes you just feel like climbing on a church building and tossing off roof tiles.

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I noticed the #exmo and #exmormon hashtags she added to her Tiktok video so it looks like the church has lost another returned missionary (she served in Oregon).  It seems enthusiastically embracing the LGBT movement is often toxic to testimonies of members of the church.  I'm not bothered by her flashing the flag at graduation - it's much more respectful than those activists that wrote "God is gay" on the sidewalks last fall at BYU.

But her story isn't as interesting as this top story of the week from Modesto, CA:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-arrested-climbing-onto-damaging-164305206.html

I think we can all relate to this guy - sometimes you just feel like climbing on a church building and tossing off roof tiles.

 

Hmmm.  Something's not quite adding up: One wonders, when did all of the pieces of this "plan" (such as it may have been ... or not) come together?  North Carolina man says to himself, "I'm discontented, disgruntled, and distraught.  What to do, what to do?  Oh, I've got it now! I'll travel from North Carolina to Modesto CA, whereupon I will climb up onto the roof of a building of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and damage it."

Yeah.  Makes perfect ... um ... sense!     I know that's the plan I came up with the last time I was discontented, disgruntled, and distraught ...  But, to quote Judge Harry Anderson's dad from Night Court, "I'm much better, now!"   

Edited April 28, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

I don't wish to set fire to the thread or to be accused of injecting incivility into what (save for the occasional barb) has been a civil discussion, but, for what it's worth, this has reminded me of the whole Chad Hardy episode.  I am somewhat sympathetic to the plight of those who experience faith crises while enrolled at BYU.  If someone wishes to confide a loss or lack of faith or a change of heart to an ecclesiastical leader or to a BYU official and to discuss, how in light of that change of heart, to proceed, that's one thing: There's room to discuss how such a situation should be handled.  Concealing that change of heart before finally revealing it at graduation, however, seems to me to be a different animal ... a Cougar of another color, perhaps.

“Free BYU”: Should Brigham Young University and its Sponsoring Institution, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Simply Say, “No Harm, No Foul” When LDS Students Conceal Their Loss/Lack of Faith in Order to Continue Receiving the Reduced Tuition Rate Available to Members of the Church Who are In Good Standing?

By Ken K. Gourdin

Chad Hardy, a former student at Brigham Young University, which is sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka the Mormon Church), has garnered headlines for leading a movement that apparently is an effort to do away with the requirement that students who are also Church members remain in good standing with the Church in order to maintain their standing at BYU and receive their degrees. See the thread discussing the issue at Mormon Dialogue and Discussion here, last accessed May 3, 2015: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64559-free-byu/. One option for BYU students who experience a loss of faith is to transfer to another institution of higher learning. In response to the contention that credits don’t transfer well, I replied:

And? Most BYU students are young adults. Part of what it means to be an adult is making choices and being willing to live with consequences of those choices. Why should BYU change to cater to Little Johnny’s or Little Janie’s whims when that’s not how the world works? They’re in for a rude awakening the minute they become affiliated with some other organization that refuses to cater to their whims anyway. Why postpone the inevitable?

In response, another poster stated that my stance is un-Christian and uncharitable. I replied:

As I said in an earlier post, there is room for discussion about how to treat someone who confides in an official of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in a BYU official, about his loss/lack of faith, and wonders how to proceed. From where I sit, however, that same room does not exist where someone conceals his loss/lack of faith, lies about it to receive a continuing ecclesiastical endorsement*, then seeks to make the Church of Jesus Christ and its flagship university look bad when the latter withholds his degree. Christ is merciful, kind, loving, patient, et cetera, but even He encouraged His followers to be cognizant of how the world currently works while, at the same time, hoping and working to establish a different ideal. That’s why He encouraged His followers to be “wise as serpents” and “harmless as doves.”

*BYU students (both LDS and not) are required to meet with member of the clergy each year (in the case of BYU students, that official is an LDS bishop; in the case of those of other faiths, it is a clergy member of the student’s faith) who certifies their continuing eligibility to attend BYU as one who continues to live up to the standards of BYU’s Honor Code, which if one is a Latter-day Saint, requires church attendance and active participation, and which requires all students to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, and non-prescribed and harmful drugs. This process is known as an ecclesiastical endorsement.

Another poster said he had no problems transferring credits to or from BYU, and I replied:

But, but, but … BYU requires its students to take classes in … [hushed whisper] … religion. And not just classes in any religion, but classes in the Mormon religion! And those credits, earned by studying a religion in which the sort of testimony-losing student [gaining a testimony is how members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints refer to gaining faith in the Church’s truth claims] under discussion here no longer believes, don’t easily transfer! 

Oh, the horrors! 

In response to another poster who said that transferring to another school wasn’t a reasonable option for Hardy, I asked, “Why not?” Later, I added: I realize he may have to take a few extra classes; I did that when I transferred. Why is he so special?” And still later, I added:

This source (http://www.appeal-democrat.com/creator-of-mormon-calendar-loses-appeal-for-byu-diploma/article_f75dd09e-f8df-55d2-bb16-2bbe4417421a.html?mode=jqm) says Hardy ceased or curtailed his activity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2002. If that is correct, why shouldn’t Hardy be required to mitigate his own damages by coming clean with school and Church officials and seeking to transfer then? I have no way of knowing for sure, of course, but I suspect at least part of the answer to that question is because Hardy told himself something like this: “Why should I transfer to another school? Why not keep up the charade and not let on about my change of heart until I’m about ready to graduate? That way, I can paint school and Church officials into a corner, make them look like the bad guys, and get all kinds of publicity for me and for my pet cause(s) if they withhold my degree.”

Maybe people who argue that BYU should deal with LDS students who lose their testimonies differently can make a good case but, if so, Chad Hardy isn’t the poster child for that case. His case isn’t a case of a BYU student losing his testimony, coming clean, and arguing in good faith what the consequences of those events should be. Apparently, rather, Hardy’s case is a case of someone who lost his testimony in 2002, lied to maintain good standing by receiving an ecclesiastical endorsement thereafter, and now simply wants the Church of Jesus Christ and its flagship university to overlook that conduct.

In response to another poster who suggested that Hardy simply should have transferred to another school, such as the University of Utah, I responded:

That’s true, but everybody knows the “U” is The Devil’s School!^* Besides, sure, Hardy could’ve come clean and sought to transfer rather than apparently keeping up a charade, trying to make Church and BYU officials look bad, and then getting all kinds of publicity and sympathy by suing them for not giving him what he wanted!  But where’s the fun in that?! 

^*Kenngo1969 = “U” Graduate

To another poster who suggested that it’s unfair to ask BYU students who lose their testimonies to jeopardize their enrollment by disclosing their loss of faith, I replied:

If Hardy’s were a case of someone messing up, feeling terrible about it, coming clean, and striving to repent; or even if his case were a case of someone confiding in a Church or in a BYU official that he’s lost his testimony [how members of the Church describe a witness of its truthfulness] and wondering what his options are, I would agree with you, but it’s not: Hardy’s is a case of someone who lost his testimony, apparently concealed that fact in order to receive continuing ecclesiastical endorsements, then sought to paint Church and BYU officials into a corner after they denied him his degree. Yes, Christ loves the sinner while hating the sin, but He also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”; and He also said, “Go, and sin no more.”

Besides, while I’m not a lawyer, and while anyone who is a lawyer will tell you (rightly, in my view) that this theory is a stretch, and while I don’t claim to speak for BYU, arguably, Hardy received a benefit under false pretenses by concealing his loss of faith from BYU officials and continuing to enroll, all the while paying a rate reserved for BYU students who are LDS and who are in good standing. While, again, I’m not a lawyer, and while anyone who is a lawyer will probably tell you this is a stretch, in my book, that’s fraud: actually, BYU is letting Hardy off easy by simply withholding his degree.

When that same poster wrote, “Go, Utes!” I replied, “On that, we agree, Sister! On that, we agree!”

[gopher]

13 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hmmm.  Something's not quite adding up: One wonders, when did all of the pieces of this "plan" (such as it may have been ... or not) come together?  North Carolina man says to himself, "I'm discontented, disgruntled, and distraught.  What to do, what to do?  Oh, I've got it now! I'll travel from North Carolina to Modesto CA, whereupon I will climb up onto the roof of a building of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and damage it."

Yeah.  Makes perfect ... um ... sense!     I know that's the plan I came up with the last time I was discontented, disgruntled, and distraught ...  But, to quote Judge Harry Anderson's dad from Night Court, "I'm much better, now!"   

I just figured he was an overworked Bishop or EQ President that finally snapped.  I'll guess we'll find out more as time goes by.  I enjoyed the photos in the story.  Sorry for the distraction - back to the OP.