BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[2BizE]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:18 PM, smac97 said:

I'm not.  She deliberately lied.  To BYU.  To her bishop.  For economic and personal advantage.  She had many, many alternatives to this course of action.  And then she compounded things by publicly flaunting and bragging about her dishonesty.  

My main beef is the dishonesty, and the fact that she flaunted that dishonesty during the graduation ceremony.  

Well, no.  Graduation ceremonies should be dignified affairs.  Time, place and manner matter.

Would lying to BYU (and her ecclesiastical leader) about her compliance with the Honor Code - something she had agreed to do - fit within those "requirements?"

Probably not.  I think she knew she was going to get away with having violated the Honor Code, so why not flaunt it on her way out the door?

She lied, brazenly and deliberately and repeatedly, in order to use the Widow's Mite to subsidize her high quality education.  She used lies and false pretenses to use the Widow's Mite for her economic advantage.  That is what pushes me off the fence.

Thanks,

-Smac

I’m sure the church could have put that widow’s mite to better use like buying a mall, a office building, or a luxury resort.

[jkwilliams]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Did you ever speed? Technically an honor code violation.

That’s it, I need to pay back the widow’s mite! 😂

[JustAnAustralian]

19 hours ago, gopher said:

I noticed the #exmo and #exmormon hashtags she added to her Tiktok video so it looks like the church has lost another returned missionary (she served in Oregon).  It seems enthusiastically embracing the LGBT movement is often toxic to testimonies of members of the church.  I'm not bothered by her flashing the flag at graduation - it's much more respectful than those activists that wrote "God is gay" on the sidewalks last fall at BYU.

So much for 

Quote

"Orr said she is a strong believer in the LDS Church, a faith she was born and raised in, but she doesn’t think her sexuality should be at conflict with her spirituality. She loves them both."https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2022/04/28/byu-students-rainbow/

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

 

I think institute would be a bigger tragedy. My two college age kids have had a fantastic experience with NAU institute. 

Subaru could be done away under "home centered, church supported." They already aligned it with CFM, and it's basically just another discussion venue for the CFM topics of the week (same with Sunday School). There aren't unique seminary materials.

For some reason, he felt based on his CES meetings, contacts, etc. that institute would be eliminated first.

ETA: phone typing. I guess get rid of Subaru, too, while we're at it.

They are trying out an 8th grade seminary here in Utah, so I highly doubt it is going away.  Not only that, but a friend reminded me seminary is required for visas in some countries for missionaries.

 If they eliminated Institute, less interaction and therefore less marriages among college age members. I don’t think your friend is a good source for gossip.

[Kenngo1969]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

They are trying out an 8th grade seminary here in Utah, so I highly doubt it is going away.  Not only that, but a friend reminded me seminary is required for visas in some countries for missionaries.

 If they eliminated Institute, less interaction and therefore less marriages among college age members. I don’t think your friend is a good source for gossip.

Quoted for truth.  

 

[Scott Lloyd]

23 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hmmm.  Something's not quite adding up: One wonders, when did all of the pieces of this "plan" (such as it may have been ... or not) come together?  North Carolina man says to himself, "I'm discontented, disgruntled, and distraught.  What to do, what to do?  Oh, I've got it now! I'll travel from North Carolina to Modesto CA, whereupon I will climb up onto the roof of a building of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and damage it."

Yeah.  Makes perfect ... um ... sense!     I know that's the plan I came up with the last time I was discontented, disgruntled, and distraught ...  But, to quote Judge Harry Anderson's dad from Night Court, "I'm much better, now!"   

Consider the precedent this sets. Will everybody be demanding soda and cigarettes now before they submit to arrest? 

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

What I am trying to do is figure out a fair way for someone to withdraw from the university once they no long believe in the Church or when they feel like they can no long live by the honor code of not holding hands or kissing someone they have fallen in love with.  

I understand where you are coming from, but it isn't like BYU is refusing to allow people from withdrawing from the university. The reality, however, is that withdrawing from a university - any university - isn't a cost free endeavor, and I don't know that BYU can (or should be expected to) do anything about that.

 

[MrShorty]

@Amulek I kind of agree, except that, if BYU feels no obligation to help students who have issues with the honor code, is it appropriate for us to show outrage when students don't transfer of their own volition? If all we do is complain that some students graduate while flaunting their lack of respect for (parts of) the honor code, then we are just engaging in outrage porn. If it's important enough to feel outrage about, then it ought to be important enough to do something about.

Edited April 29, 2022 by MrShorty

[smac97]

1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

Quote

I understand where you are coming from, but it isn't like BYU is refusing to allow people from withdrawing from the university. The reality, however, is that withdrawing from a university - any university - isn't a cost free endeavor, and I don't know that BYU can (or should be expected to) do anything about that.

@Amulek I kind of agree, except that, if BYU feels no obligation to help students who have issues with the honor code,

I don't think that is what Amulek is saying.  Withdrawing from any school is not a cost-free endeavor.  The questions I have are

A) whether it is more difficult to transfer from BYU than from other comparable schools,

B) whether BYU has created that difficulty, and

C) whether BYU has the capability to mitigate that difficulty.

I also have qualms with the implicit suggestion that encountering some measure of inconvenience or difficulty in transferring schools is justification for deliberately lying to BYU and graduating from it under false pretenses.

1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

is it appropriate for us to show outrage when students don't transfer of their own volition?

This accusation of hyperbolic responses ("outrage") is, ironically, hypberbole.  I'm seeing people bothered and disappointed about the lies and deceit employed by Jillian Orr, but "outraged?"  Nah.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

B) whether BYU has created that difficulty, and

C) whether BYU has the capability to mitigate that difficulty.

BYU creates the necessity by making religious conversion/deconversion an event that results in expulsion from the school. They absolutely have the ability to mitigate this. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

18 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

 If all we do is complain that some students graduate while flaunting their lack of respect for (parts of) the honor code, then we are just engaging in outrage porn.

It's the flaunting that gets to me.  College is only 4 years (or 5 years in my case).  If someone loses their faith during that time, it's a small sacrifice to just keep quiet, keep following the honor code, and then move on with their life at the end of the experience.  I'm not outraged by people who do this, even if it means they end up lying to their bishops to get that ecclesiastical endorsement. 

But to make a spectacle of one's dissent is entirely unnecessary and unbecoming.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

BYU creates the necessity by making religious conversion/deconversion an event that results in expulsion from the school. They absolutely have the ability to mitigate this. 

Is expulsion required for loss of a testimony?  I honestly have no idea.

[rongo]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Not only that, but a friend reminded me seminary is required for visas in some countries for missionaries.

I've heard this, too ("Training in the ministry is required; seminary checks that box for some countries"), but is there any actual evidence of that? Or is this something that's passed down, hearsay? If there were any type of scrutiny of seminary as "ministerial training," we'd be in trouble.  

6 hours ago, Calm said:

 If they eliminated Institute, less interaction and therefore less marriages among college age members. 

There would still be college wards, just not the institute classes or credit. Interaction, dating, and marriage are all more influenced by the wards and ward activities than the institute. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've heard this, too ("Training in the ministry is required; seminary checks that box for some countries"), but is there any actual evidence of that? Or is this something that's passed down, hearsay? If there were any type of scrutiny of seminary as "ministerial training," we'd be in trouble.  

There would still be college wards, just not the institute classes or credit. Interaction, dating, and marriage are all more influenced by the wards and ward activities than the institute. 

I've heard that Taiwan requires 4 years of religious training for missionaries and that seminary graduation satisfies that requirement.  I've heard the same thing about Brazil and Russia (when Russia was still a thing).  

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've heard that Taiwan requires 4 years of religious training for missionaries and that seminary graduation satisfies that requirement.  I've heard the same thing about Brazil and Russia (when Russia was still a thing).  

I've heard the same things (vaguely). Any idea how that could be verified? 

[Snodgrassian]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I don't think that is what Amulek is saying.  Withdrawing from any school is not a cost-free endeavor.  The questions I have are

A) whether it is more difficult to transfer from BYU than from other comparable schools,

B) whether BYU has created that difficulty, and

C) whether BYU has the capability to mitigate that difficulty.

I also have qualms with the implicit suggestion that encountering some measure of inconvenience or difficulty in transferring schools is justification for deliberately lying to BYU and graduating from it under false pretenses.

This accusation of hyperbolic responses ("outrage") is, ironically, hypberbole.  I'm seeing people bothered and disappointed about the lies and deceit employed by Jillian Orr, but "outraged?"  Nah.

Thanks,

-Smac

I can't answer all of your questions, but my spouse did transfer from BYU when we got married. She was an English major, did not take many religion classes because she knew she was going to transfer. The difficulty is probably no t unique to BYU, but what she was told by her (prominent) Public University was that it is difficult for University's and the colleges that issue the degrees to know how classes from other schools are taught and if they address the requirements of this new school. If there is a history of students transferring between schools, it makes the process a bit easier. My wife was probably one of a handful that ever transferred between BYU and this University. SHe was given credit hours but had to retake most of the 100 and 200 level classes.

She began her studies at a community college (1 year), went to BYU for 1 year, and then finished up that this other university. BYU accepted 50% the Community College credits, the public University accepted them all (it was common to transfer from the Community College to the University). Interesting side note, she and her friends all swear that the community college classes were the best education and had the highest standards. 

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, rongo said:

 

Actual coffee (cold and hot). You can smell it when it's hot, and they are open about it. There is widespread, growing generational difference of opinion about whether coffee and tea products are or should be against the Word of Wisdom, so many youth and young people don't feel guilty about just answering "yes" to keeping the WoW in interviews. 

The Church is staying out of it (when's the last time you remember a WoW talk?). The growing acceptance for first medical and now recreational marijuana among active, attending members is another area that the Church is staying quiet on. Youth and young people are very comfortable with the thought of marijuana. 

I am not sure you can extrapolate your local flavor of rebellion to the whole church. 

[rongo]

Just now, Danzo said:

I am not sure you can extrapolate your local flavor of rebellion to the whole church. 

Of course not, but there are more data points than just my observations. @Senator shared anecdotes from his daughter that put WoW/LoC violations at BYU at 80%. I think that is high, but I think others' experiences and observations in a variety of other places would bear that youth and young adults are less observant of several commandments than past generations. We're also facing a deluge of young people going inactive or outright leaving the Church. That trend would certainly dovetail with that. 

[Danzo]

23 minutes ago, rongo said:

Of course not, but there are more data points than just my observations. @Senator shared anecdotes from his daughter that put WoW/LoC violations at BYU at 80%. I think that is high, but I think others' experiences and observations in a variety of other places would bear that youth and young adults are less observant of several commandments than past generations. We're also facing a deluge of young people going inactive or outright leaving the Church. That trend would certainly dovetail with that. 

Young people have been leaving the church since I was a young person.   

Also, in my experience here and on my mission, young adults were the most likely to join as well.   When you are a young adult, you start making decisions on your own, for many that involves questioning faith.  Many of those question their faith and choose to join the church and many who are already members of the church choose to leave. 

Young people leaving is certainly a problem, but I am not sure it is a new problem.

 

As far as BYU is concerned from what I hear, both from my children and others who attended, is that if you want to sin, you can find it there.  If you want to be righteous, you can find it there as well.  You get what you want.  My children are very grateful that at BYU they can actually find a community of young adults that want to live the gospel, something much more difficult elsewhere.  But, if you are looking for trouble, you can certainly find it. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Danzo

[Danzo]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Young people have been leaving the church since I was a young person.   

Also, in my experience here and on my mission, young adults were the most likely to join as well.   When you are a young adult, you start making decisions on your own, for many that involves questioning faith.  Many of those question their faith and choose to join the church and many who are already members of the church choose to leave. 

Young people leaving is certainly a problem, but I am not sure it is a new problem.

 

As far as BYU is concerned from what I hear, both from my children and others who attended, is that if you want to sin, you can find it there.  If you want to be righteous, you can find it there as well.  You get what you want.  My children are very grateful that at BYU they can actually find a community of young adults that want to live the gospel, something much more difficult elsewhere.  But, if you are looking for trouble, you can certainly find it. 

Couple of days ago, I had the opportunity of attending the temple with a sister in our branch who was getting her endowments for the first time.  It was a wonderful experience.  This sister had found the gospel after her daughter had joined the church as a young woman.  If it weren't for this youth questioning her faith and embracing the gospel, this lovely sister might not have joined.

My wife joined the church as a youth, leaving the religion she was raised in.  

Youth and young adults present a challenge, and an opportunity.  

 

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is expulsion required for loss of a testimony?  I honestly have no idea.

It might depend on how you define "loss of testimony." I think this is enforced at the ecclesiastical endorsement level, so it is sometimes subject to leadership roulette. What I can readily find on BYU/CES websites says that:

1) The honor code requires "regular participation in (LDS) Church services for LDS members."  Does participation require a testimony?

2) The ecclesiastical endorsement page states in no uncertain terms that those on formal membership restrictions, those who have had membership withdrawn, or those who resign are not eligible for an endorsement. From there, CES/BYU says it is entirely up to the bishop. How does each bishop feel about endorsing someone who has "lost their testimony?" How do we feel as outside observers if a student graduates from BYU without a testimony?

Letter of the law seems to suggest that "loss of testimony" does not require expulsion. Only resigning your membership (or having priesthood leadership put you on formal discipline/restrict membership) require expulsion. The gray around loss of testimony and endorsement is up to a bishop (assuming the student discloses their loss of testimony).

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is expulsion required for loss of a testimony?  I honestly have no idea.

There is a difference between loss of a testimony and rebellion.

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

There is a difference between loss of a testimony and rebellion.

 

I agree.  But that doesn't answer my question.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

It might depend on how you define "loss of testimony." I think this is enforced at the ecclesiastical endorsement level, so it is sometimes subject to leadership roulette. What I can readily find on BYU/CES websites says that:

1) The honor code requires "regular participation in (LDS) Church services for LDS members."  Does participation require a testimony?

2) The ecclesiastical endorsement page states in no uncertain terms that those on formal membership restrictions, those who have had membership withdrawn, or those who resign are not eligible for an endorsement. From there, CES/BYU says it is entirely up to the bishop. How does each bishop feel about endorsing someone who has "lost their testimony?" How do we feel as outside observers if a student graduates from BYU without a testimony?

Letter of the law seems to suggest that "loss of testimony" does not require expulsion. Only resigning your membership (or having priesthood leadership put you on formal discipline/restrict membership) require expulsion. The gray around loss of testimony and endorsement is up to a bishop (assuming the student discloses their loss of testimony).

 

That's useful, thanks.

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  But that doesn't answer my question.

I don't think there should be consequences for people's weakening testimony.  People's testimonies often get stronger or weaker based on where they are in their lives.

Consequences should be reserved for those who want to openly rebel, in my opinion.

Throughout the years, in talking a working with youth (and adults) the question often comes up.  "Will one cigarette, one beer, one night with my girlfriend, etc keep me from heaven?"  

The best answer that I have come up with is "Probably not, but rebellion will"

When we rebel we are basically saying that we don't want to go to heaven because we don't want God.

Our sins won't keep us from heaven if we accept the atonement of Christ, but when we rebel, we are basically refusing the atonement of Christ and Christ wont force us to go somewhere or do something we don't want to do.