BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

https://aims.byu.edu
 

"The mission of Brigham Young University — founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life."

"BYU seeks to develop students of faith,...."

"A BYU education should be: Spiritually Strengthening....."

 

"Strategic Objectives (2020–2025)

Ensure alignment with the university mission.

...

Advance faith-based teaching and learning.

..."

Yes.  But where does it say that BYU only admits nonmembers as a recruitment tool?  That's the issue that is being discussed and that point, if true, is relevant to any nonmember students (and their families) who apply and should probably be more visible.  As Calm said, it would likely be a surprise to some of the nonmembers that have been admitted, to know that's why they were allowed in.

The school is religion based; that is not being disputed.  The school caters to members; that is also not being disputed.  What I'm not sure I agree with is that it wouldn't work for BYU to allow religious ex-members to attend because BYU only accepts nonmembers who might convert.  

I'm not necessarily arguing that BYU should admit ex-members, but I don't know that saying we only admit nonmembers to try to convert them seems all that accurate to me.  Maybe it is, and BYU has just been quiet about it.  If that's the case then I think that BYU should be more forthcoming about it, especially to any Jewish or Muslim students.  

Edited May 2, 2022 by bluebell

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But where does it say that BYU only admits nonmembers as a recruitment tool? 

I don't believe that's the only reason BYU admits non-members, but it certainly appears to be one of the reasons. 

Ecuminism and fostering good will among those less familiar with our faith might be other (or even more important) reasons as well.

But I think it's obvious that one of the ideas in play here is to expose people to as Zion-like an environment as possible where they can't help but interact with and learn more about the church (see, e.g., mandatory religion requirements), and then let the Spirit do the work of conversion. My understanding is that missionaries assigned to the student wards are quite busy - so much so, in fact, that I never even encountered a pair in any of the student wards I attended during my entire time at BYU.

 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I don't believe that's the only reason BYU admits non-members, but it certainly appears to be one of the reasons. 

Ecuminism and fostering good will among those less familiar with our faith might be other (or even more important) reasons as well.

But I think it's obvious that one of the ideas in play here is to expose people to as Zion-like an environment as possible where they can't help but interact with and learn more about the church (see, e.g., mandatory religion requirements), and then let the Spirit do the work of conversion. My understanding is that missionaries assigned to the student wards are quite busy - so much so, in fact, that I never even encountered a pair in any of the student wards I attended during my entire time at BYU.

 

I think that offering an environment of goodwill among all religiously minded people is probably one of BYU's objectives.  I think an argument can be made that some ex-mormons could fit that agenda.  But certainly not all would.  Probably not even most.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that offering an environment of goodwill among all religiously minded people is probably one of BYU's objectives.  I think an argument can be made that some ex-mormons could fit that agenda.  But certainly not all would.  Probably not even most.

What I want to know is how many faithful families become alienated to the Church starting at the time when their child/sibling/grandchild gets expelled from BYU. Not saying that is the only thing that would cause the extended family to distance themselves, but feeling your kid is getting pushed out when hoping that with support and love maybe they will open their minds to belief again…I can see feeling betrayed in that moment and sometimes a step and they are sliding down the slope. (I think many wouldn’t slip even if feeling betrayed, but some will due to their circumstances).

[Scott Lloyd]

On 5/2/2022 at 10:01 AM, bluebell said:

You're being a bit dramatic but yes, I'm referring to the personal definition of "apostate" that you are using which is different than the one the church uses.

Your definition may work with dictionary.com but doesn't seem relevant when it comes to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  We don't consider a person who has abandoned their beliefs in the Catholic church and joined ours to be an apostate, for example, even though their actions fit the online definition of the word perfectly.

Likewise, our church does not seem to consider someone who no longer believes in our doctrines to be an apostate either.  

I said the definition I quoted is a normative definition, meaning it is widely accepted in society, as opposed to being esoteric. Again, it’s not my “personal” definition. I didn’t write or invent it. I’ve only taken cognizance of it.

The definition you are citing is a technical, administrative one, used for determining whether membership restriction or membership withdrawal is to be imposed. If that never happens, it does not mean apostasy — under the normative definition I have cited here — has not occurred. What about the thousands of people who have more-or-less publicly renounced their faith, requested name removal, but for whom a membership council has not been convened and probably never will be?

There must be numerous nominal members of the Church who have unrepentantly committed fornication or adultery but who have never been subject to a membership council and likely never will be. By your logic, they have not violated the law of chastity. 
 

You wrote: “We don't consider a person who has abandoned their beliefs in the Catholic church and joined ours to be an apostate.” 
 

You might not, but according to online research I did yesterday, the Catholic Church does (I can find a link for you if you’re interested). Would I disapprove of that person’s behavior? No, but that’s because I’m not a believer in Catholicism. Similarly, I would not expect Catholics to care or disapprove if a member of our church were to renounce it pursuant to embracing Catholicism. Furthermore, I find the position of the Catholic Church on this matter to be understandable, even reasonable, within its own doctrinal paradigm. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

What I want to know is how many faithful families become alienated to the Church starting at the time when their child/sibling/grandchild gets expelled from BYU. Not saying that is the only thing that would cause the extended family to distance themselves, but feeling your kid is getting pushed out when hoping that with support and love maybe they will open their minds to belief again…I can see feeling betrayed in that moment and sometimes a step and they are sliding down the slope. (I think many wouldn’t slip even if feeling betrayed, but some will due to their circumstances).

There are no doubt ostensibly faithful members who resent it when a loved one is subject to membership restriction or withdrawal for past or current conduct. Though unfortunate, such does not per se argue against boundary maintenance or sustaining the standards of the Church. 

[MustardSeed]

The word “apostate” is rarely helpful in guiding people (back) to Christ IMO/IME

[Calm]

8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

The word “apostate” is rarely helpful in guiding people (back) to Christ IMO/IME

I think it better apply to doctrine and teachings, imo than people. Also anti-Mormon is more useful in terms of behaviour that is damaging to the church. 
 

Former believer covers the rest well enough if missing some nuances I use,  it typically don’t see others using. 

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

The word “apostate” is rarely helpful in guiding people (back) to Christ IMO/IME

[Durangout]

 

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Durangout said:

 

Greg is a lunatic, it's fun to see him triggered. Thanks for the share!

Edited May 5, 2022 by Duncan

[Durangout]

https://www.change.org/p/creating-awareness-of-byu-professors-radicalizing-students?recruiter=1263797597&recruited_by_id=921af3a0-cb1e-11ec-aebc-8b324b33fb99&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Durangout said:

https://www.change.org/p/creating-awareness-of-byu-professors-radicalizing-students?recruiter=1263797597&recruited_by_id=921af3a0-cb1e-11ec-aebc-8b324b33fb99&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard

Radicalizing? That is bad. Are they trying to overthrow the government? Joining terrorist cells and committing acts of terrorism?

Oh wait, no, they just don’t know what radical means. Okay.

[Durangout]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Radicalizing? That is bad. Are they trying to overthrow the government? Joining terrorist cells and committing acts of terrorism?

Oh wait, no, they just don’t know what radical means. Okay.

Radical:

adjective

1. 1. 

   (especially of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough.

   "a radical overhaul of the existing regulatory framework.

   2. advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party.

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Radical:

adjective

1. 1. 

   (especially of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough.

   "a radical overhaul of the existing regulatory framework.

   2. advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party.

you constantly advocate for psycho Greg Matsen, who wants to "Educate members of the Restored Church on the growth of Critical Social Justice and its encroachment on the Church."

wait there's more nonsense!

"Please help us accomplish our objectives by donating to our cause"

cause? 

don't leave just yet!

"1) The Names of the Professors
2) Evidence on BYU Critical Social Justice Activities
3) Why Aren't the Church Leaders Doing Anything?
4) Parents Teaching and Preparing Their Kids

I cover all of these topics along with more specifics on what we are doing to create more awareness."

So this idiot Greg says the Church isn't "doing anything" so if you pay him or donate to "our cause" they'll do something! 

 

Sounds radical to me and anybody with a conscience wouldn't have a anything to do with him. By the way, I don't know what 3rd grader did their website but Greg is trying to sell their "merch" but someone spelled "apparell" wrong, it's spelled "apparel"

 

[HappyJackWagon]

I find threads like this depressing. It might just be time for another break from this forum. But then again, sometimes I have free time at work so...

Last night around midnight my daughter came into our room and asked if her friend could spend the night. Someone had outed the friend as gay to her family and they blew up. She was preached at, yelled at and condemned, and told to get out, by the people she should be able to trust and depend on. (hopefully they will come to their senses and repent) So she came to our place and we were happy to have her. She is welcome as long as she wants to stay. But good grief! This girl's devout family are doing their Christian duty by condemning her but for the life of me I can't figure out what possible benefit their behavior, judgement and condemnation could serve for the church or for the family. Do they think they can change her orientation with some tough love? 

It is reactions like this that give religion a bad name. It's deserved. This very thread condemns the graduate for her dishonesty and for flouting the rules so publicly. With these kinds of reactions is it any wonder that people would a. hide their orientation and thus be called a liar or b. become angry at the abuse they suffer and lash out? And how are these people received? With judgement. As if judging others is one of the fundamental Christian principles we've all taken oaths to uphold.

The United Methodist Church is currently in the process of splitting precisely because of this issue. Some (the new Global Methodist Church) believe it is more important to uphold rules restricting LGBTQ inclusion than it is to actually follow the principles of inclusion and stated goal of creating disciples of Christ. They only want certain types of people to be disciples so good riddance to them. Mormonism, Christianity, and religion in general deserve the increasingly empty pews when they can't even treat others with decency and respect, let alone a mere attempt to follow the 2nd great commandment.

 

PS- rant over

Edited May 6, 2022 by HappyJackWagon

[Stormin' Mormon]

I've got a teen daughter who has come out to her friends as bisexual.  Here's how I approached the issue:

First, with regards to their future in the Church: I took a step back and asked myself, what do I REALLY want for my kids?  At its most basic core, I want my kids to grow and not be a-holes.  So, we've talked about that in various family home evenings.  We've pointed out the various ways that Church teachings and culture can provide us with the tools to not be a-holes.  And if their faith path leads them away from the Church someday, to not jettison any of those tools that can still be used outside of a church setting (giving to charity, serving in one's community, etc). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Second, with regards to their identity: we've talked about the brain-science.  I'm not an expert, but I've read that a person's brain is not fully developed until their early to mid twenties.  From experience, this seems true to me.  I was a very different person at 25 than I was at 15.  So we've talked about that in various family home evenings, as well.  I've asked my kids to not make any permanent conclusions about their sexuality or gender identity until they are in their 20's.  But, at the same time, we will be supportive and understanding of any desires to explore those issues while in their teen years.  As long as they don't come to permanent conclusions or make decisions with permanent consequences until they've given themselves sufficient room to grow into themselves.  And if, when they are grown, they make such a conclusion about their identity, we will be fully supportive of them. 

It will probably strike many as unwise or unhealthy, but I'm trying to find a middle way that is neither too restrictive nor too permissive, that is reflective of both my love of the gospel and my love for my daughter.  I've never been the parent of gay LDS child before, so I don't have a lot of past experience to draw from.  I'm doing the best I can with love, intuition, and the spirit guiding me.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I've got a teen daughter who has come out to her friends as bisexual.  Here's how I approached the issue:

First, with regards to their future in the Church: I took a step back and asked myself, what do I REALLY want for my kids?  At its most basic core, I want my kids to grow and not be a-holes.  So, we've talked about that in various family home evenings.  We've pointed out the various ways that Church teachings and culture can provide us with the tools to not be a-holes.  And if their faith path leads them away from the Church someday, to not jettison any of those tools that can still be used outside of a church setting (giving to charity, serving in one's community, etc). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Second, with regards to their identity: we've talked about the brain-science.  I'm not an expert, but I've read that a person's brain is not fully developed until their early to mid twenties.  From experience, this seems true to me.  I was a very different person at 25 than I was at 15.  So we've talked about that in various family home evenings, as well.  I've asked my kids to not make any permanent conclusions about their sexuality or gender identity until they are in their 20's.  But, at the same time, we will be supportive and understanding of any desires to explore those issues while in their teen years.  As long as they don't come to permanent conclusions or make decisions with permanent consequences until they've given themselves sufficient room to grow into themselves.  And if, when they are grown, they make such a conclusion about their identity, we will be fully supportive of them. 

It will probably strike many as unwise or unhealthy, but I'm trying to find a middle way that is neither too restrictive nor too permissive, that is reflective of both my love of the gospel and my love for my daughter.  I've never been the parent of gay LDS child before, so I don't have a lot of past experience to draw from.  I'm doing the best I can with love, intuition, and the spirit guiding me.

 

I like you're approach to the brain science. I think it makes a lot of sense. It sounds like you are doing a very good job walking the line, even though it can't be easy.   

Just out of curiosity- I assume when you say the bolded part, that you are only referring to LGBTQ identity. Or are you asking them not to make any permanent conclusions about being hetero as well?

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I like you're approach to the brain science. I think it makes a lot of sense. It sounds like you are doing a very good job walking the line, even though it can't be easy.   

Just out of curiosity- I assume when you say the bolded part, that you are only referring to LGBTQ identity. Or are you asking them not to make any permanent conclusions about being hetero as well?

I've never thought about it in those terms. 

On the one hand, I think I'd be pretty uncomfortable with my kids getting married to anyone of any gender right out of high school or within their first few years of college.  My wife and I were around 25 when we got married, which was ancient when compared to our BYU peers.  But on the other hand, I recognize my own biases in favor of heterosexuality. Those biases stem from a belief that a heterosexual life will likely include fewer obstacles and roadblocks for my kids, but there are also moral considerations baked into my biases.  So, while I'd be uncomfortable if they got marred at the age of 19, I'd probably be less uncomfortable with them marrying heterosexually at that age than if they were marrying homosexually.

I'm trying to be open minded and accepting, but I'm not perfect.   

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

condemnation could serve for the church or for the family.

Latter-day Saint family?

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

it is more important to uphold rules restricting LGBTQ inclusion than it is to actually follow the principles of inclusion and stated goal of creating disciples of Christ. They only want certain types of people to be disciples 

One could easily argue that if the types of people are willingly involved in practices that go against Christ it's a literal impossibility for them to be disciples.

Square peg, round hole.  Never works.

[smac97]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Radicalizing? That is bad. Are they trying to overthrow the government? Joining terrorist cells and committing acts of terrorism?

Oh wait, no, they just don’t know what radical means. Okay.

Yeah, he's not doing his argument any favors by using such overblown rhetoric.

Thanks,

-Smac

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

One could easily argue that if the types of people are willingly involved in practices that go against Christ it's a literal impossibility for them to be disciples.

Square peg, round hole.  Never works.

So an imperfect person can never be a disciple? Interesting  

 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I've got a teen daughter who has come out to her friends as bisexual.  Here's how I approached the issue:

First, with regards to their future in the Church: I took a step back and asked myself, what do I REALLY want for my kids?  At its most basic core, I want my kids to grow and not be a-holes.  So, we've talked about that in various family home evenings.  We've pointed out the various ways that Church teachings and culture can provide us with the tools to not be a-holes.  And if their faith path leads them away from the Church someday, to not jettison any of those tools that can still be used outside of a church setting (giving to charity, serving in one's community, etc). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Second, with regards to their identity: we've talked about the brain-science.  

 

Brilliant

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I've got a teen daughter who has come out to her friends as bisexual.  Here's how I approached the issue:

First, with regards to their future in the Church: I took a step back and asked myself, what do I REALLY want for my kids?  At its most basic core, I want my kids to grow and not be a-holes.  So, we've talked about that in various family home evenings.  We've pointed out the various ways that Church teachings and culture can provide us with the tools to not be a-holes.  And if their faith path leads them away from the Church someday, to not jettison any of those tools that can still be used outside of a church setting (giving to charity, serving in one's community, etc). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Second, with regards to their identity: we've talked about the brain-science.  I'm not an expert, but I've read that a person's brain is not fully developed until their early to mid twenties.  From experience, this seems true to me.  I was a very different person at 25 than I was at 15.  So we've talked about that in various family home evenings, as well.  I've asked my kids to not make any permanent conclusions about their sexuality or gender identity until they are in their 20's.  But, at the same time, we will be supportive and understanding of any desires to explore those issues while in their teen years.  As long as they don't come to permanent conclusions or make decisions with permanent consequences until they've given themselves sufficient room to grow into themselves.  And if, when they are grown, they make such a conclusion about their identity, we will be fully supportive of them. 

It will probably strike many as unwise or unhealthy, but I'm trying to find a middle way that is neither too restrictive nor too permissive, that is reflective of both my love of the gospel and my love for my daughter.  I've never been the parent of gay LDS child before, so I don't have a lot of past experience to draw from.  I'm doing the best I can with love, intuition, and the spirit guiding me.

 

You sound like a great dad:)