BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Is expulsion required for loss of a testimony?  I honestly have no idea.

You have to maintain an ecclesiastical endorsement to attend. 
 

Quote

If LDS, is this member in full fellowship (i.e. not on formal probation or disfellowshipped, excommunicated, or voluntarily disaffiliated from
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)? Yes No
 If LDS, is this member living worthy of temple privileges? Yes No
 If LDS, does this member regularly attend church meetings, fulfill assignments and callings, a

 

https://brightspotcdn.byu.edu/0d/69/5a8929994340b3699d97337d5f78/continuing-student-ecclesiastical-endorsement.pdf

 

Also here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/if-you-leave-mormonism-you-have-to-leave-byu-now-some-alumni-want-to-change-that/2014/11/21/6b19ec9c-719a-11e4-a2c2-478179fd0489_story.html
 

Quote

“Nonmembers have not made promises and commitments that a member of the church has,” Jenkins says. “A former Mormon who decides to leave the church, distances themselves from those promises and commitments. The result is that they are not eligible to attend BYU.”

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

BYU creates the necessity by making religious conversion/deconversion an event that results in expulsion from the school. They absolutely have the ability to mitigate this. 

By abandoning its mission and values? That’s a bridge too far. 
 

BYU invests in the education of faithful and devoted Latter-day Saints expecting they will help the Church in its intent to bless and bring salvation to others by remaining true to their covenants. That is it should be the understanding of all Church members who enroll there. 

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By abandoning its mission and values? That’s a bridge too far. 
 

BYU invests in the education of faithful and devoted Latter-day Saints expecting they will help the Church in its intent to bless and bring salvation to others by remaining true to their covenants. That is it should be the understanding of all Church members who enroll there. 

Since non-members are allowed, perhaps there is a way for BYU to allow a student to change designations during their schooling to something similar to what non-members have.  

It's more expensive, so many disillusioned members would probably choose not to do it, but with the ability out there, choosing not to to save some money would certainly take a lot of steam out of some of these ex-members' moral indignation.

[Amulek]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Since non-members are allowed, perhaps there is a way for BYU to allow a student to change designations during their schooling to something similar to what non-members have.

Non-members are allowed to change their designation: from non-member to member.

 

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, MrShorty said:

[If] BYU feels no obligation to help students who have issues with the honor code, is it appropriate for us to show outrage when students don't transfer of their own volition?

What sort of "help" do you have in mind?

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Non-members are allowed to change their designation: from non-member to member.

 

Exactly!  Maybe a little reciprocity is in order.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By abandoning its mission and values? That’s a bridge too far. 
 

BYU invests in the education of faithful and devoted Latter-day Saints expecting they will help the Church in its intent to bless and bring salvation to others by remaining true to their covenants. That is it should be the understanding of all Church members who enroll there. 

Which is why I would never recommend BYU to anyone and I hold the church and parents accountable for the undue pressure they put on their kids to attend a church school. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Exactly!  Maybe a little reciprocity is in order.

Perhaps, but one of the things that makes BYU uniquely BYU is that it is largely comprised of and designed for faithful members.

If someone decides they want to leave the church, that's fine with me. But every person attending BYU who has decided to leave the church is displacing some other ardent, faithful member who would be grateful to have their place. And if I'm being completely honest, I think that's probably the part that bugs me even more than the displays of ingratitude and uncovered deceit.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Amulek

[CA Steve]

Should the church be held to the same level of openness before accepting tithing?

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Should the church be held to the same level of openness before accepting tithing?

Not sure what your asking. Are you asking if  the church should accept tithing from anyone who no longer has a testimony?

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Perhaps, but one of the things that makes BYU uniquely BYU is that it is largely comprised of and designed for faithful members.

If someone decides they want to leave the church, that's fine with me. But every person attending BYU who has decided to leave the church is displacing some other ardent, faithful member who would be grateful to have their place. And if I'm being completely honest, I think that's probably the part that bugs me even more than the displays of ingratitude and uncovered deceit.

 

It’s a conundrum for sure. 

[MiserereNobis]

Do non-LDS students need an ecclesiastical endorsement? Would they get it from an LDS bishop or from their own minister? What about atheist students?

If a current BYU student converts to Catholicism, would they be expelled? Or could they keep going with an ecclesiastical endorsement from a priest (if that's what happens with non-LDS students) as long as they keep the honor code?

Are there religious exemptions to the honor code? For example, could a Sikh student wear a beard? Could a Catholic student receive communion wine? I'm sure there are other examples, too (Rastarian student smoke marijuana?).

I'm not too sure why a non-LDS student would want to go to BYU. I'm guessing sports would be the highest reason? Or maybe a specific program of study that BYU really excels at?

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If someone decides they want to leave the church, that's fine with me. But every person attending BYU who has decided to leave the church is displacing some other ardent, faithful member who would be grateful to have their place. And if I'm being completely honest, I think that's probably the part that bugs me even more than the displays of ingratitude and uncovered deceit.

But young adults changing as they encounter new experiences is just standard human behaviour.  It needs to be taken into account and not treated as wickedness or intentional apostasy (though there are students who have apostatized before college and are hiding it from parents so the parents will pay for their school, they hate going to BYU but it doesn’t occur to them to get a job and go to community college from their own accounts).  

Making it the person’s choice to leave by increasing tuition and not kicking them out benefits the likely Latter-day Saint families of these students and helps keep antipathy from developing or at least moving students straight into antimormonism because they resent being forced into corners.  I think I would become highly resentful if in my last year I went to the administration and informed them I wasn’t a believer anymore, but thought BYU was a good school and wanted to stay there, would continue to be supportive of the Church and was willing to pay nonmember fees, but was still kicked out. I would be more likely to see other things about the church in a negative light, I am guessing. If it was more like two years or more before I graduation, changing schools seems fair to me given the number of students who do it all the time. But in the last year…that is different.  Also if I got kicked out mid semester and wasn’t allowed to finish without fees being returned.

It is understandable to me why some lie and then understandable why they start to dislike the institution they see as forcing them to lie. It is a lose lose situation for the Church to kick them out or have them hiding. Disaffected members are more likely to make believing spouses make a choice or work harder to bring them out of the faith as well from what I have seen. A former believer who still appreciates what the Church has done for them personally is more likely to be supportive of believing spouses and let family attend.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do non-LDS students need an ecclesiastical endorsement?

yes

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Would they get it from an LDS bishop or from their own minister? What about atheist students?

their own minister. Atheists need not apply. 

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If a current BYU student converts to Catholicism, would they be expelled?
 

If they are honest they are expelled. 

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

a current BYU student converts to Catholicism, would they be expelled?

Yes, but a Catholic getting baptized a Saint would be celebrated big time.  

[Calm]

https://honorcode.byu.edu/ecclesiastical-endorsements
 

Quote

Students who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are also expected to maintain the same standards of conduct. They are encouraged to participate in services of their preferred religion. All students must be in good Honor Code standing to graduate, to receive a diploma, and to have the degree posted. 

Latter-day Saint students may be endorsed only by the bishop of the ward (1) in which they live and (2) that holds their current Church membership record.

 

Quote

Non-Latter-day Saint students are to be endorsed by (1) the local ecclesiastical leader if the student is an active member of the congregation, (2) the Latter-day Saint bishop of the ward in which they currently reside, or (3) the nondenominational BYU chaplain. 

Students who are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not eligible to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement. 

Atheists…could be endorsed by Latter-day Saint leaders as mentioned above, not certain if it is automatic rejection. Maybe Seeking can share if this is direct knowledge or a conclusion of his due to no minister to provide an endorsement or something else.

You have to log in to see Endorsement applications, so can tell if “no religion” is an option or not. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

Deleted. Calm posted what I was looking for. 

I didn't know that former Mormons are ineligible for ecclesiastical endorsements.

Edited April 29, 2022 by rongo

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm not too sure why a non-LDS student would want to go to BYU. I'm guessing sports would be the highest reason? Or maybe a specific program of study that BYU really excels at?

I had a friend who was a Baptist who wanted to come to see what Mormons were really like and maybe even show them the light originally if I am recalling our conversations correctly. She had been previously an anti-Mormon by her own description and then got more curious about us after online interaction with Saints, including some of our BYU scholars (late 1990’s, early 2000s).  Was good friends with several of them. She married a member, it did not turn out well (he never grew up as far as I could tell and she gave him many chances he was too selfish to take advantage of), though lovely children.  She seems to have a great life now doing what she loves, so happy about that. 

[MrShorty]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

What sort of "help" do you have in mind?

 

I don't know what to suggest. Maybe because, even in my time at BYU (30 years ago), people violated the honor code and got away with it. In the end, maybe I'm just resigned to our fate that a certain percentage of BYU graduates will graduate without respecting the honor code, and we just have to live with that reality. It might be that I was thinking that, with all of the disappointment being expressed in this thread, maybe some of that disappointed energy would help us come up with new ideas.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Since non-members are allowed, perhaps there is a way for BYU to allow a student to change designations during their schooling to something similar to what non-members have.  

It's more expensive, so many disillusioned members would probably choose not to do it, but with the ability out there, choosing not to to save some money would certainly take a lot of steam out of some of these ex-members' moral indignation.

I answered a similar question here earlier but their changed status is not comparable to that of one who has never accepted the restored gospel message in the first place. They have forsaken their faith and essentially become covenant breakers and apostates. 

[Senator]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I answered a similar question here earlier but their changed status is not comparable to that of one who has never accepted the restored gospel message in the first place. They have forsaken their faith and essentially become covenant breakers and apostates. 

 

Lovely

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I answered a similar question here earlier but their changed status is not comparable to that of one who has never accepted the restored gospel message in the first place. They have forsaken their faith and essentially become covenant breakers and apostates. 

And those who were baptized in their faith, aren’t they also covenant breaker and apostates?  If it is the lack of integrity that matters so much, why would we accept them?

[MorningStar]

On 4/27/2022 at 5:08 PM, bluebell said:

The BYU honor code doesn't allow chaste SS romantic relationships either.  

Does the BYU honor code allow married men to have girlfriends as long as they're not having sex with them? 

[Calm]

On 4/28/2022 at 5:14 PM, Senator said:

If that were the case BYU's student body count would be a fraction of what it is, according to my sophomore daughter currenty attending.  I brought up what is being discussed in this very thread.  She exclaimed, "Dad, everyone, evvverrryyyone is either drinking, smoking pot, having sEx or any combination the three."  I of course said that that obviously isn't true, right???  She agreed, and then in all seriousness said that if she had to assign a number, she would put it at 80%.  I still question the accuracy of the number.  Nevertheless,  her firsthand observations is pretty sobering.

It could be an issue of association, those who do those things are more likely to find others who want to do those things…so if she happens to know some who are a part of that group (roommates or classmates), she may have been pulled into contact with more intentional HC violators than the typical student, just like I got to know quite a few students from Alabama, more I am guessing than most students at the time because I had two roommates from there who were very social and others came to hang out with them.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

And those who were baptized in their faith, aren’t they also covenant breaker and apostates?  If it is the lack of integrity that matters so much, why would we accept them?

It goes beyond a mere lack of integrity. In the doctrinal framework of the Latter-day Saints, breaking sacred covenants associated with membership in the Church is a extremely serious matter. As I said before, it would be understandable to me if the university and its governing board of trustees were disinclined to blithely dismiss it.