BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Okay, that is weird.  Could have sworn I hit this link:

https://byui.instructure.com/courses/124872/assignments/syllabus

That looks more like it.  I know that the BYU anatomy program is PeeWee and much less rigorous than than the UVU program, but I would be beyond shocked if they didn’t require visual ID of anatomical markers of the reproductive organs.  I think this is probably a bogus rumor or not the full story.  I have no idea why a picture of genitals would be on a syllabus anyway.

Edited April 28, 2022 by pogi

[jkwilliams]

Just now, rongo said:

My dad was a YSA bishop for six years, at the same time that I was a bishop the first time. We often shared stories and compared experiences. He said that the level of immorality among Church-attending youth is staggering. Many of them rationalize or justify practices that stop technically short of intercourse, but are against the spirit and the letter of the law of chastity (and they know it, too, they just don't care). 

There are a lot of seminary youth who bring coffee from Dutch Brothers or Starbucks into seminary, so that more is crumbling among seminary-attending youth. 

I feel like I lived a sheltered life. There was a group of kids (including my brother) who spent early morning seminary smoking weed by the creek behind the church, but the rest of us were pretty much doing what we were supposed to do. 

I didn’t see a lot of honor code violating at BYU, though I did have a roommate who tried to fondle me while I was sleeping. I don’t think I ever came close to breaking the honor code myself. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

Sounds good, except that BYU cannot enforce that on other universities. So, BYU can certainly make it easier to transfer into BYU. But the process of encouraging other universities to accept BYU credits is in the hands of those other universities. What can BYU do to encourage others to accept their credit?

Maybe work out some reciprocity deals?

When I transferred to a four year university all of my credits transferred straight across, because I had an associates degree, so that I went in as a junior as if I had always been at that school.  This was because the colleges in the area (and by area I mean within a few hours of each other) had made deals to work with each other and make transferring easier.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

Maybe work out some reciprocity deals?

When I transferred to a four year university all of my credits transferred straight across, because I had an associates degree, so that I went in as a junior as if I had always been at that school.  This was because the colleges in the area (and by area I mean within a few hours of each other) had made deals to work with each other and make transferring easier.

My daughter just transferred from BYUI to UVU. She is having to retake a few classes because UVU requires 4 credits and the BYUI classes were 3 credits. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

There are a lot of seminary youth who bring coffee from Dutch Brothers or Starbucks into seminary, so that more is crumbling among seminary-attending youth. 

Actual coffee?  Not one of their many many non-coffee options?

[bsjkki]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Actual coffee?  Not one of their many many non-coffee options?

Dutch Bro’s has a zillion non coffee options. Maybe they are assuming behavior?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bsjkki said:

Dutch Bro’s has a zillion non coffee options. Maybe they are assuming behavior?

I don’t know. The smell of coffee is hard to mistake. 

[bsjkki]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I feel like I lived a sheltered life. There was a group of kids (including my brother) who spent early morning seminary smoking weed by the creek behind the church, but the rest of us were pretty much doing what we were supposed to do. 

I didn’t see a lot of honor code violating at BYU, though I did have a roommate who tried to fondle me while I was sleeping. I don’t think I ever came close to breaking the honor code myself. 

Not even curfew or staying out too late or arriving too early to an apartment of the opposite sex? 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Not even curfew or staying out too late or arriving too early to an apartment of the opposite sex? 

Nope. 

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

other schools might not want the transferred credits despite BYU’s offer. 

I am not debating that, but does it have to be mutual before BYU does the better thing by removing  any financial motive to refuse credits and make accepting credits by BYU solely based on whether or not the student has the skills and knowledge expected at the end of the BYU version of the class. 

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nope. 

Did you ever speed? Technically an honor code violation.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So do you have a response to my question, then? Under such an arrangement would you favor having the student pay back all he received in tuition subsidy (in effect doubling the cost of his education at BYU)? And what about university-provided grants and scholarships? How many of today’s college students do you realistically think would regard it as a bargain to get their tithing money refunded if they had to pay all of that back?

 If you wouldn’t favor that as a quid pro quo, why not? 

I see no reason to require someone to pay back tuition during the time that they were a believing member, do you?  What I am trying to do is figure out a fair way for someone to withdraw from the university once they no long believe in the Church or when they feel like they can no long live by the honor code of not holding hands or kissing someone they have fallen in love with.  

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you believe your prosperity from well-paying summer jobs is typical of the experience of university students these days? 

Honestly Scott, jobs in California pay way more than jobs in Utah.  Yes, I know quite a few of my fellow high school class mates that were making quite good salaries.   I grew up in a very middle class area.  It wasn't the kind of place that parents were buying brand new BMW's for their kids. I can think of 5 students in my junior year at high school that bought brand new cars that they paid for themselves.  One of my best friends got married right out of high school.  He had an apartment, furnished it with all new furniture and drove the car he bought his junior year in high school.  

My freshman year, I stayed in the dorms. There were several kids on that floor who also had good jobs that paid for cars and all the expenses that went with it.  I am not going to assume that all BYU students were like me.  I would suggest that you not assume that all BYU students were like you.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Dutch Bro’s has a zillion non coffee options. Maybe they are assuming behavior?

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Actual coffee?  Not one of their many many non-coffee options?

Actual coffee (cold and hot). You can smell it when it's hot, and they are open about it. There is widespread, growing generational difference of opinion about whether coffee and tea products are or should be against the Word of Wisdom, so many youth and young people don't feel guilty about just answering "yes" to keeping the WoW in interviews. 

The Church is staying out of it (when's the last time you remember a WoW talk?). The growing acceptance for first medical and now recreational marijuana among active, attending members is another area that the Church is staying quiet on. Youth and young people are very comfortable with the thought of marijuana. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

That looks more like it.  I know that the BYU anatomy program is PeeWee and much less rigorous than than the UVU program, but I would be beyond shocked if they didn’t require visual ID of anatomical markers of the reproductive organs.  I think this is probably a bogus rumor or not the full story.  I have no idea why a picture of genitals would be on a syllabus anyway.

And bluntly, when was someone freaked about showing pictures to youth but were okay about them talking about penises and vaginas?  How can they be planning on studying something they can’t see?

Not only that, but they are recommending if desired textbooks that more than likely will contain uncensored pictures.  I just checked the free online textbook they linked to and fully functioning human is pictured in all their glory.

Also promoting in-depth internet research.

Quote

 As we continue to improve the materials we have to offer students, it has proven useful for some students to obtain a textbook as a reference book that helps them understand difficult concepts in this course. The good news is that because any textbook purchase is only for reference, it does not matter which textbook it is and it does not matter very much edition it is. For this reason, students can often find a very good reference textbook online for quite cheap. Below are some textbooks that students have purchased in the past that have been helpful….

It should be noted that many if not most of our students do just fine in this course without a reference textbook. Students who choose NOT to purchase a textbook learn quickly to research their questions on the internet and those students who were willing to spend the time and effort to do good internet research learn the material very well and really don't need a reference textbook

I am not sure if this (see below) is the current link, but it says the same as the other link I am seeing here:

https://byui.instructure.com/courses/124872/assignments/syllabus
 

https://content.byui.edu/file/318d0b25-a021-4e4e-80af-d37d0ef13a78/4/bio264.zip/bio264syllabus.html

Edited April 29, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ttribe said:

Someone forgot to mention this to Jim McMahon, back in the day.

He married one of my friends from my home ward.  I always worried about her for that reason to be honest.

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, rongo said:

Actual coffee (cold and hot). You can smell it when it's hot, and they are open about it.

Teachers don’t say anything?  At all?  Like I would say in private to a kid something along the lines of “you know I want you here no matter what, but the Church defines the WoW as including no coffee.  Are you sure you want to be drinking it?”

If they aren’t saying anything, do you have actual knowledge they have been instructed not to or if a personal choice?

[Kenngo1969]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

And bluntly, when was someone freaked about showing pictures to youth but were okay about them talking about penises and vaginas? ...

Oh, please, please, please!  Use "p's & v's"! 

Hey, that rhymes!

Sorry.  Couldn't resist!

Carry on!

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Teachers don’t say anything?  At all?  Like I would say in private to a kid something along the lines of “you know I want you here no matter what, but the Church defines the WoW as including no coffee.  Are you sure you want to be drinking it?”

If they aren’t saying anything, do you have actual knowledge they have been instructed not to or if a personal choice?

Oh, I let them know my feelings about it, when it comes to it. 

I was released in 2018 when we moved, and thus was starting to be a thing then. I do have my two boys in seminary now, and I talk to other kids about seminary and things. The coffee/tea thing has gotten bigger, and @Senator's daughter's anecdote  and estimate of sinful behavior at BYU doesn't surprise me at all. 

Since my boys have been at their school, our traditional/conservative brand of Mormonism has created quite a stir. I've had students say to me during the day, "Did your boys tell you about seminary yet?" A lot of kids relished the arrival of kids who could push back on these trends, progressive doctrinal shifts, etc. Word of Wisdom, among others.

I know back in our old stake, the seminary teacher (CES principal, former stake presidency member, and former mission presidency member) didn't say anything. He didn't want the kids to quit coming or get offended, and obviously I think he wasn't doing them any favors by not saying anything. We discussed this on some occasions (I was a bishopric counselor to him, and served both times as a bishop under his stake presidency). He also expressed to me his view that the Church will eventually do away with seminary, but will start with institute at college first. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

The Church is staying out of it

They had it in the Friend and the Youth magazine last August.  Looks like they devoted much of the issue to it in the Friend.  All but one from past year.  The one is from 2019. Added after a search by google, the Church’s search function is useless: Looks to me like they are heavily pushing it to the youth in media, which may be something youth pays more attention to than conference talks.  I figured these were enough, there were more though.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2021/08/the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2021/08/how-to-say-no?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/08/questions-and-answers/15_tea-or-coffee?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2021/06/tea-or-mango-juice?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2021/08/the-drug-decision?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2021/10/for-older-kids/ready-for-the-temple?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/goal-live-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2019/08/vaping-coffee-tea-and-marijuana?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-primary-old-testament-2022/45?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/08/united-states-and-canada-section/the-lords-law-of-health?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/08/digital-only/why-i-keep-the-word-of-wisdom-when-im-repeatedly-faced-with-temptation?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/what-to-say-when-the-coffee-questions-come?lang=eng

Edited April 29, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

They had it in the Friend and the Youth magazine last August.

Last August, huh?

What's the readership,really,any more? 

Staff articles, submissions, or Church leader articles? 

And what's the next Church mention or treatment before that? It pales in comparison to depression, anxiety,mental health, etc. as a topic. 

[Kenngo1969]

32 minutes ago, rongo said:

... He also expressed to me his view that the Church will eventually do away with seminary, but will start with institute at college first. 

If it were to happen, that would be a huge mistake.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, rongo said:

Last August, huh?

What's the readership,really,any more? 

Staff articles, submissions, or Church leader articles? 

And what's the next Church mention or treatment before that? It pales in comparison to depression, anxiety,mental health, etc. as a topic. 

See above for a partial list of the past year’s media offerings…it was talked about in lessons, podcasts, magazines, missionary pamphlets, tons of stuff.  Only thing I can see it not being talked about in was conference talks.  It looks to me from looking at table of contents and titles like it often gets presented side by side with health topics.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, rongo said:

He also expressed to me his view that the Church will eventually do away with seminary, but will start with institute at college first. 

Not what I have heard.  It is very clearly recognized youth need to be taught early to be prepared for stuff they come across on the internet.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not what I have heard.  It is very clearly recognized youth need to be taught early to be prepared for stuff they come across on the internet.

 

27 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If it were to happen, that would be a huge mistake.

I think institute would be a bigger tragedy. My two college age kids have had a fantastic experience with NAU institute. 

Subaru could be done away under "home centered, church supported." They already aligned it with CFM, and it's basically just another discussion venue for the CFM topics of the week (same with Sunday School). There aren't unique seminary materials.

For some reason, he felt based on his CES meetings, contacts, etc. that institute would be eliminated first.

ETA: phone typing. I guess get rid of Subaru, too, while we're at it.

Edited April 29, 2022 by rongo

[JustAnAustralian]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Subaru could be done away under "home centered, church supported."

That'll annoy the Japanese too much.