BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

This is bull.  She could have transferred to any of hundreds of other schools at any time if she did not want to live by the Honor Code.  This wasn't about her "potentially losing everything."  Instead, she chose to use lies and false pretenses to gain economic advantage for herself.

You know she lied and was in a honor code violating relationship.  Did I miss that somewhere?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yeah, I read. your OP where you accused her of having a girlfriend and lying about the honor code, but there is NOTHING in what she actually said that states that.

Basically you are burning her at the stake by guessing that she might have been in a relationship, and then ginning up everyone to outrage.  

Typical

So I ask you again, quote exactly where she said that she was in a gay relationship while at BYU

So far, is all you have quoted is this.

Obviously there is nothing in that quote that says that she was in a relationship while at BYU, is all she is talking about is how the Honor Code works, which is all true.  Probably needs to be said because she is addressing her comments to people who may not be familiar with the BYU honor code that has no idea the dating or just holding hands has severe consequences.  

 

Want to try again and actually answer the question???

She said-

"I started to discover more and more about my sexuality of being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved,"

I think that pretty clearly says that she had a girlfriend, even if it's not explicit.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

She said-

"I started to discover more and more about my sexuality of being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved,"

I think that pretty clearly says that she had a girlfriend, even if it's not explicit.

You can have a girlfriend without having sex. Or is simply having a relationship a violation of the honor code? I’m not up on BYU policies. 

[Duncan]

15 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I have a hard time taking this comment from her at face value. Especially after watching her tiktok on the "most homophobic thing I have ever seen at BYU," where she posted a question from a quiz in one of her marriage and family classes (see question below). 

Question: One who truly loves LGBTQ people will _________?

     A. Love them conditionally based on whether they live according to the gospel plan.

     B. Love them unconditionally while constantly challenging their life choices in an effort to help them follow the gospel plan.

     C. Love them unconditionally and accept that whatever they want as what is best for them.

     D. Love them unconditionally while continuing to realize that their greatest happiness will come through living according to the gospel plan. 

 

I wouldn't characterize that as being anything remotely like saying bisexual people are born into evil.

Also, it appears that she intentionally answered the question wrong with the specific intent of making that particular video. 

she said it was "The most homophonic [sic] assignment at BYU I’ve ever had" she said two things. Besides of which seeing and hearing are two different things. You don't hear quizzes

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

At the same time, my tithing money helps to subsidize BYU, so yeah, there's a part of me that is annoyed when people take that money and then complain about it.

I thought most believing  members here think that after you pay your tithe it is none  of your business what the church does with it.  If you knew where your tithing really went you might have other objections right?  This is one of the reasons why a church spokesperson recently said that the church does not publish it financials.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'm not.  She deliberately lied.  To BYU.  To her bishop.  For economic and personal advantage.  She had many, many alternatives to this course of action.  And then she compounded things by publicly flaunting and bragging about her dishonesty.  

Did she lie?  Where is the evidence for this. She could be bisexual if she did not act on it and still be in good standing.

[Vanguard]

44 minutes ago, Duncan said:

She also said "You can’t be in a relationship unless you’re hetero and most of my classes spoke of the “evil” that I was born into. "

One of the honor codes is "Respect others"

https://policy.byu.edu/view/church-educational-system-honor-code

I wonder how many of those people telling her she was the evil she was born into were respecting her? That's a violation. You should be outraged at the disrespect shown towards her. Besides of which the comments shown on here against her, by BYU grads,  tell me the "honor code" is essentially worthless if it's blown off when you walk out of BYU after graduating, it didn't seem to do these people any good. 

 

so, yes, it is the issue

I can't speak conclusively to what I am not privy to. She has reported her experience, my mileage may very if I were present in those moments as would yours. What is your position on her announcement during the graduation ceremony and - if she had indeed broken the LOC - what do you think?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Teancum said:

Did she lie?  Where is the evidence for this. She could be bisexual if she did not act on it and still be in good standing.

I’m not seeing any admission of a sexual relationship. Seems like the outrage is predicated on the mere assumption. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You can have a girlfriend without having sex. Or is simply having a relationship a violation of the honor code? I’m not up on BYU policies. 

I completely agree about the bold.  But as I understand it, having a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex, even if you don't have sex, is still against the honor code.  Holding hands and kissing, for example, are against the honor code in a SS relationship.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

I completely agree about the bold.  But as I understand it, having a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex, even if you don't have sex, is still against the honor code.  Holding hands and kissing, for example, are against the honor code in a SS relationship.

I’m so glad my kids didn’t go to BYU. 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Having and falling into a {lesbian} relationship" is the likely issue.  I suspect she had engaged in behavior that was incompatible with the Honor Code, so she lied about that behavior.  To her bishop.  To BYU.

Yea maybe she just liked this girl or even loved her but still stayed chaste.  Heterosexuals do this at times at BYU as well ya know.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I thought most believing  members here think that after you pay your tithe it is none  of your business what the church does with it.  If you knew where your tithing really went you might have other objections right?  This is one of the reasons why a church spokesperson recently said that the church does not publish it financials.

What?  I know where my tithing money goes and I don't object to it going to BYU in the least.  I don't object to the church using the money in that way even though I know some people will take advantage. 

But I do have an issue with people who employ dishonesty to gain access to money that was given in good faith, and then saying horrible things about them while they use it.  Scammers are the worst, but ungrateful scammers are different kind of low.  

 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m so glad my kids didn’t go to BYU. 

I would never encourage my kids to go there, but if they want to then I'll support them.  

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yea maybe she just liked this girl or even loved her but still stayed chaste.  Heterosexuals do this at times at BYU as well ya know.

The BYU honor code doesn't allow chaste SS romantic relationships either.  

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not seeing any admission of a sexual relationship. Seems like the outrage is predicated on the mere assumption. 

There doesn't need to be a sexual relationship.  The outrage is predicated on there being a romantic SS relationship, because that alone is against the BYU honor code.

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I can't speak conclusively to what I am not privy to. She has reported her experience, my mileage may very if I were present in those moments as would yours. What is your position on her announcement during the graduation ceremony and - if she had indeed broken the LOC - what do you think?

believe me, i've heard worse! if she broke the LoC then that's between her and her Bishop. If he doesn't want to remain in the church then it isn't and God will deal with her like he will all of us. I don't want to be someone that won't forgive her as I don't want the greater sin, DC 64:9

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

There doesn't need to be a sexual relationship.  The outrage is predicated on there being a romantic SS relationship, because that alone is against the BYU honor code.

That’s just sad. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

But Jillian Orr is 28.  Twenty eight years old.

I must have missed that. I agree that she is plenty old enough to do better much better. Thank you for pointing that out. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think this is getting harder and harder to sell as time goes by, particularly since it seems like a means of rationalizing patently dishonest behavior.

Students at BYU typically have the grades and scores to give them hundreds of alternative options for their education.  So I'm not inclined to excuse patently dishonest conduct by Jillian Orr

Two thoughts. Transferring say your senior year is likely going to require around a two year set back. Applying to schools take time, credits don’t transfer, most majors you have to apply to, etc etc. That is a huge opportunity cost. 
 

Second, most students in this situation feel lied to. I believe that President Hinkley made the dichotomy that the church is either what it claims to be or a huge fraud. Even if one believes current leaders to be sincere, rejecting the church narrative almost requires the conclusion that you’ve built your life on a pile of lies. So when individuals weigh the options (again there is no way to change your faith at BYU and maintain your religious endorsement) between lying to a “fraudulent” organization or spending two years of their life to take the high road, it’s no wonder so many choose the former. I agree with others here though, that the way she is rubbing peoples face in it, is obnoxious. 

[bluebell]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

That’s just sad. 

It is what it is.  Some find it sad, some don't.  Those who do shouldn't have anything to do with BYU.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

No.  It looks like she lied about her behavior.

Nope.  It is, however, against the Honor Code to engage in "same-sex romantic behavior."

She spoke of "being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved."  Also:

None of this is about "being bisexual," and is instead entirely about behavior.

I'm reading her public statements and reaching conclusions based thereon.

I have not said anything about orientation.  The Church has, for many years now, differentiated between feelings and behavior.

No reasonable and informed person thinks that the Honor Code imperils standing at BYU because of feelings.  It is behavior that is subject to the Honor Code.  And Jillian Orr said she is in "that relationship with this girl that I really loved" and elsewhere that "{a}t BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship."

Are you disputing that she has said these things?

Thanks,

-Smac

Wow.  She liked a girls. She felt romantic about the girl. Maybe she held hands. Maybe she did something  more.  You sure are reading a lot into this. A lot.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

It is what it is.  Some find it sad, some don't.  Those who do shouldn't have anything to do with BYU.

Hence my relief that my kids went elsewhere. The church’s treatment of gay members was a big reason why some of my children have left. 

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

It is what it is.  Some find it sad, some don't.  Those who do shouldn't have anything to do with BYU.

Unfortunately, my terminal degree is from there, so....

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What?  I know where my tithing money goes and I don't object to it going to BYU in the least. 

No you don't know where your tithing money goes.  The church does not tell anyone this.  But let's drop it so as not to derail the thread.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

Unfortunately, my terminal degree is from there, so....

Both my degrees are from the Y.

[Amulek]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

she said it was "The most homophonic [sic] assignment at BYU I’ve ever had" she said two things. Besides of which seeing and hearing are two different things. You don't hear quizzes

I think you're missing the point. There's nothing remotely homophobic (or even "homophonic") about that question.

So if that is what she characterizes as "the most homophobic thing I have ever seen at BYU," then maybe she is prone to exaggeration.