BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not.  She deliberately lied.  To BYU.  To her bishop.  For economic and personal advantage.  She had many, many alternatives to this course of action.  And then she compounded things by publicly flaunting and bragging about her dishonesty.  

My main beef is the dishonesty, and the fact that she flaunted that dishonesty during the graduation ceremony.  

Well, no.  Graduation ceremonies should be dignified affairs.  Time, place and manner matter.

Would lying to BYU (and her ecclesiastical leader) about her compliance with the Honor Code - something she had agreed to do - fit within those "requirements?"

Probably not.  I think she knew she was going to get away with having violated the Honor Code, so why not flaunt it on her way out the door?

She lied, brazenly and deliberately and repeatedly, in order to use the Widow's Mite to subsidize her high quality education.  She used lies and false pretenses to use the Widow's Mite for her economic advantage.  That is what pushes me off the fence.

Thanks,

-Smac

I get your point, but I think it goes without saying that this is a pretty regular occurrence.  We just don't usually know about it.  I'm ok with leaving such dishonesty between the person and God (though I can certainly understand the annoyance or anger from those who aren't).

For me personally, ingratitude and biting the hand that feeds you is a worse offense.

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Are we mostly bothered about the public flaunting of the honor code violation or about the actual honor code violation? I expect (and I don't think anyone else would be surprised) that there are several students in the current graduating class who violated or are violating the honor code who did not go public.

It seems superficial (not sure that is the right word) if we are going to focus our ire only on Orr and only be bothered because of the public display while ignoring the quiet ones who also got degrees with various and sundry violations of the honor code. At the same time, I don't know what to suggest to get better enforcement (without turning BYU into a mini police state).

I'm mostly bothered by the ingratitude, and like I said to Smac, the biting (and castigating) of the hand that fed her.

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

How is coming out as bisexual at BYU a problem? For either the individual or the school? 

I am assuming that bisexual means that a person is equally attracted to both men and women, and can therefore choose which individuals to pursue romantically.  A bisexual person therefore has a choice that is not available to their gay or lesbian classmates.  They can limit themselves to dating members of the opposite sex for the duration of their time at BYU and still be successful in culitvating romantic relationships. They are in a position to choose to obey the honor code with very little sacrifice of "their authentic self." 

It's no different from an LDS person at a public university who limits their dating pool to other LDS individuals.  Yeah, there may be some attractive dating candidates outside the pool, but there are plenty of attractive candidates within the pool.

Add to the fact that "being gay" or "feeling same sex attractions" are not honor code violations.  Like at all.  Coming out as bisexual at BYU is entirely meaningless.

I don't get it.  What am I missing?

 

I think people are interpreting her acknowledgement that she had a romantic relationship with a woman to be an admittance of breaking the honor code (which prohibits it).

[Vanguard]

This immediately reminded me of how Hollywood used to keep their 'pecadillos' under wraps largely away from the public eye. At some point, it became more in vogue to parade these activities for the world to see as it enlargens/ed the celebrity's cache. My parents and I used to talk about this. "Better to keep these things private" my father would say. It's the very same thing here. 

[MrShorty]

@smac97 I'm still not sure if you are more bothered by violations of the honor code or those who go public. IMO, in order for this not to become "outrage porn" as @The Nehor suggested, I think we need to be working towards some practical suggestions for how BYU can protect the widow's mite (other than "honor code violators ought to leave of their own accord.") If we cannot move towards better enforcement of the rules, then it just feels like outrage porn to me.

@california boy' and others have asked what her real violations of the honor code were. Do we have evidence that Orr had girlfriends? dated girls? danced* with girls? If she only had desires to do those things but did not do them, then did she violate the honor code?

* (nod to the New Policy thread that started about dancing)

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would disagree with this sentiment.  There are many, many ways in which this student could have announced to her friends, family, and the world what her sexual orientation was.  Instead she chose to take a ceremony intended to honor those graduating from the school and turn into into her coming out announcement.  While it may have been legal it showed little regard for the other students and those who were attending to support them.

It showed that she prioritized supporting lgtbq students over those who would be uncomfortable with her display.  I think that is different than showing little regard.   She may have taken their feelings into great consideration, but decided that the act was still warranted for other reasons she deemed more important.  (or she may not have, who knows).

I don't find fault with anyone who disagrees with her choices.  For me though, if it's allowable then I'm not going to get angsty about a student doing it.  

[Duncan]

Something that that happens far more often than something like this is people who graduate from BYU and then instantly go inactive. The same thing happens with missionaries, people game the system and then bail on it and that happens far more often than this kind of thing.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

the Widow's Mite

That’s funny. Maybe could have worked back before Ensign Peak was leaked to the masses. At best you can say that she used dollars that would have been stored indefinitely in a 120 billion dollar stock portfolio. Better would be to say she held a spot another student wanted. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

@smac97 I'm still not sure if you are more bothered by violations of the honor code or those who go public.

The former.

4 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

IMO, in order for this not to become "outrage porn" as @The Nehor suggested, I think we need to be working towards some practical suggestions for how BYU can protect the widow's mite (other than "honor code violators ought to leave of their own accord.")

I think we can ignore The Nehor, who likes to play the provocateur and to derail topics he dislikes.

4 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

If we cannot move towards better enforcement of the rules, then it just feels like outrage porn to me.

None of us work at BYU or the Church.  And the worst terminology I've seen here is "bothered."  Quite a stretch to call this "outrage," let alone "outrage porn."

4 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

@california boy' and others have asked what her real violations of the honor code were. Do we have evidence that Orr had girlfriends? dated girls? danced* with girls? If she only had desires to do those things but did not do them, then did she violate the honor code?

* (nod to the New Policy thread that started about dancing)

See the OP (at the "ETA" part).

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm mostly bothered with the lying the deceit for economic advantage. 

I can understand being bothered, but this happens ALL THE TIME at BYU.    You seem really, really outraged and particularly bothered at this specific case.  Why?  If you found out that a close friend or relative violated the honor code while at BYU and lied to his/her bishop and others so that they could finish out their schooling unimpeded, would you be equally compelled to denigrate and shame them online over it?  Or, is there more to the story as to what is bothering you the most about this story?  

How many football players over the years have been caught lying about the honor code for economic advantage?  Those are just the ones that are caught!  No one seems to be too outraged by the lying for economic advantage, they are more upset that their team lost a player. 

One football player lied about living the honor code for economic advantage, went public afterwards, and is equally trying to get them to change the honor code.  I don't remember any outrage around it.  He actually made some really important and good points.  Perhaps the fact that he was a football player and it wasn't gay sex that he was in violation of makes all the difference. 

  https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2019/03/11/former-byu-athletes-call/

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, smac97 said:

B) she knows perfectly well that she used false pretenses to have her education heavily subsidized by the Widow's Mite, and she is perfectly fine with that.

Kudos to you on creating and dragging in a (presumably) ****ensian (Edit: Oh for…..D-i-c-k-ensian) widow being exploited by this evil girl. Truly she is the real victim. I wonder how well the people in the Temple at the time of Jesus were at using the donations properly. One would think Jesus should have labeled the widow as foolish since that money might end up in the hands of wicked pretenders. Or maybe the widow gets her reward even if her nickel went to fund someone who wore a flag at her graduation.

It is amazing to me that we live in a culture where corruption is becoming more and more open but outrage comes primarily from stuff like this. I think we are doing it all wrong honestly.

Edited April 27, 2022 by The Nehor

[smac97]

28 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Possibly. Or it could merely be that she wanted to engage in activities that would have been in violation of the Honor Code, but she had to hide who she truly was by abstaining from acting on those desires until after she graduated.  Now, if there is evidence that she was actually in a same sex relationship and engaging in behavior which violates the Honor Code prior to graduating I might feel differently, but I think we should refrain from repeating the charge of her lying to BYU, her bishop, etc. as though all of that were a fact without actual evidence of it being the case.

She spoke of "being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved."  Also:

Quote

The text of her TikTok reads: “At BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship. If you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences.

“They threaten to take away your degree and kick you out of the university. Students are afraid to be who they are, so they hide out of fear until they get out.

She is acting as if she was violating the Honor Code, and had to keep it a secret.  Do you think otherwise?

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I’m torn on BYU honor code issues. I think it’s important and valuable for the church to be able to have a safe space centered on their faith. On the other hand, I know the immense pressure put on 18 year olds by their families with tacit church approval to attend only BYU. These are young people who have grown up in an environment sheltered(? Not sure on best word here) from the world going on a multi year experience to discover themselves. For the fraction that figure out midway through the church is not a good fit for them, there are exactly zero good options (by design?) to extricate themselves from that situation. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

She may have taken their feelings into great consideration, but decided that the act was still warranted for other reasons she deemed more important. 

Right, she decided that what she wanted was more important than the reason that the group had gathered in the first place. 

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think we can ignore The Nehor, who likes to play the provocateur and to derail topics he dislikes.

*Looks at who started thread about being upset about something a college student did that they found annoying and wanted to share it*

Huh…..odd that.

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Every single post you have made about this person is that she lied about her orientation.  

No.  It looks like she lied about her behavior.

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Is it against the honor code to not tell anyone you are bisexual?  

Nope.  It is, however, against the Honor Code to engage in "same-sex romantic behavior."

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Do you have ANY proof that she acted on that orientation in any way?  

She spoke of "being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved."  Also:

Quote

The text of her TikTok reads: “At BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship. If you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences.

“They threaten to take away your degree and kick you out of the university. Students are afraid to be who they are, so they hide out of fear until they get out.

None of this is about "being bisexual," and is instead entirely about behavior.

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Because you are making assumptions and then building a whole thread about those assumptions.

I'm reading her public statements and reaching conclusions based thereon.

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Now you are building an entire case against her based on your accusation?  Always jumping to the worst guessing you can pick out of someone's comments.  You do this a LOT. I am sure there are a lot of students that hide their orientation simply because they don't want to be targets, similar to the one you have pinned on her back.

I have not said anything about orientation.  The Church has, for many years now, differentiated between feelings and behavior.

No reasonable and informed person thinks that the Honor Code imperils standing at BYU because of feelings.  It is behavior that is subject to the Honor Code.  And Jillian Orr said she is in "that relationship with this girl that I really loved" and elsewhere that "{a}t BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship."

Are you disputing that she has said these things?

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Kudos to you on creating and dragging in a (presumably) ****ensian widow being exploited by this evil girl. Truly she is the real victim. I wonder how well the people in the Temple at the time of Jesus were at using the donations properly. One would think Jesus should have labeled the widow as foolish since that money might end up in the hands of wicked pretenders. Or maybe the widow gets her reward even if her nickel went to fund someone who wore a flag at her graduation.

It is amazing to me that we live in a culture where corruption is becoming more and more open but outrage comes primarily from stuff like this. I think we are doing it all wrong honestly.

Where are all the people complaining about the emotional blackmail here. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Right, she decided that what she wanted was more important than the reason that the group had gathered in the first place. 

There is certainly room in the story to believe the worst about her.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Kudos to you on creating and dragging in a (presumably) ****ensian widow being exploited by this evil girl. Truly she is the real victim. I wonder how well the people in the Temple at the time of Jesus were at using the donations properly. One would think Jesus should have labeled the widow as foolish since that money might end up in the hands of wicked pretenders. Or maybe the widow gets her reward even if her nickel went to fund someone who wore a flag at her graduation.

It is amazing to me that we live in a culture where corruption is becoming more and more open but outrage comes primarily from stuff like this. I think we are doing it all wrong honestly.

I am bothered by BYU students to lie and use false pretenses for personal and financial gain.

I am bothered by BYU students who agree to follow the Honor Code, and then thereafter violate it, and then - having received a high-quality and heavily-subsidized education - publicly brags about and flaunts that violation.

I am bothered by BYU students who don't want to keep the Honor Code nevertheless stay at BYU and repeatedly lie about it.

I am bothered by BYU students who do these things without a hint of remorse or regret.

But "bothered" is all I am.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Right, she decided that what she wanted was more important than the reason that the group had gathered in the first place. 

The horror for all those people exposed to a rainbow. Perhaps BYU can serve up some PTSD counseling. This is only a story because BYU and Elder Holland decided to make the rainbow a symbol of protest instead of love and support. 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

There is certainly room in the story to believe the worst about her.

I don't know, as far as I know she could be a wonderful human being and someone we'd all love to sit down and spend some time talking to.  But, her actions in this case seem to show a lack of regard for other graduates and attendees at the graduation ceremony.  

Make the announcement somewhere where it doesn't detract from the accomplishments of others.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't know, as far as I know she could be a wonderful human being and someone we'd all love to sit down and spend some time talking to.  But, her actions in this case seem to show a lack of regard for other graduates and attendees at the graduation ceremony.  

Make the announcement somewhere where it doesn't detract from the accomplishments of others.

I can see where you are coming from.  I just see it differently.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The horror for all those people exposed to a rainbow. Perhaps BYU can serve up some PTSD counseling. This is only a story because BYU and Elder Holland decided to make the rainbow a symbol of protest instead of love and support. 

No, it's not about horror or PTSD.  It's about respect for your fellow graduates and those attending who support them.  It's about taking a spotlight that should be shinning on the accomplishments of all the graduates and using it to highlight your sexuality. 

[HappyJackWagon]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think people are interpreting her acknowledgement that she had a romantic relationship with a woman to be an admittance of breaking the honor code (which prohibits it).

That's quite the assumption.

Unless you're like SMAC who believes handholding is breaking the LoC.

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The horror for all those people exposed to a rainbow. Perhaps BYU can serve up some PTSD counseling. This is only a story because BYU and Elder Holland decided to make the rainbow a symbol of protest instead of love and support. 

Or maybe an apostle can castigate her in an upcoming conference talk for showing the rainbow flag  

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

I can understand being bothered, but this happens ALL THE TIME at BYU.

Yes.  And?

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

You seem really, really outraged and particularly bothered at this specific case. 

I am not.

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why? 

For the same reason I express disagreement with, say, Latter-day Saint businessmen who steal via crooked investment schemes, or members of the Church who abuse spouse or children or others, or who commit crimes.  These things happen "all the time" as well.  And when they become news items, we talk about them on this board.

A quick survey of the topics on this board include discussions about a number of specific individuals:

• Scott Adams, the border patrol agent who abused his kids and then killed himself.
• Brad Wilcox's fireside comments (plenty of digital ink spilled about him on this board).
• Elder Holland's remarks.
• Chad Daybell.
• John Dehlin.
• Dehlin v. Kwaku.

Plenty of spleens have been vented against Elder Holland and Bro. Wilcox.

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you found out that a close friend or relative violated the honor code while at BYU and lied to his/her bishop and others so that they could finish out their schooling unimpeded, would you be equally compelled to denigrate and shame them online over it? 

Generally not.  But if and when someone publicizes such things and invites commentary and feedback, I think commentary and feedback are appropriate.

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Or, is there more to the story as to what is bothering you the most about this story?  

I don't know what you mean here.

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

How many football players over the years have been caught lying about the honor code for economic advantage? 

Dunno.  How many of them have made splashy spectacles of themselves and invited public commentary and feeback about their "lying abou the honor code"?

Thanks,

-Smac