BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sure, why not.  Everyone is complaining about the widows mite coming from the 100 billon plus slush fund that the person paid into as being unfair.  So give them their money back and they can spend it at another university.  It seems like a fair compromise.  If the students tithing over 5 years is paltry, then that is what they get.  But maybe it is enough to have the student more fairly decide what might be best for them and the university.  In my case, I always had well paying jobs in the summer and was able to pay for all my own college. The refund would be more than what non-members pay.

So, as a quid pro quo, then, would you favor having the unfaithful student pay back the amount of the subsidy he received? That seems more than fair to me if he’s going to have his tithing refunded. 
 

I think it would be extremely rare for a student to have paid enough in tithing to have covered the amount of the subsidy he got. I suspect it was likewise rare when you were enrolled, and I question whether you’ve done a serious or accurate accounting to back up what you say. 

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So, as a quid pro quo, then, would you favor having the unfaithful student pay back the amount of the subsidy he received? That seems more than fair to me if he’s going to have his tithing refunded. 

From what I am hearing, there are a fair number of students who start attending with the best of intentions, but they have a faith crisis or realize that they are LGBT while attending.

 

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it would be extremely rare for a student to have paid enough in tithing to have covered the amount of the subsidy he got.

Then it shouldn't be a problem and certainly would be a good PR move on the part of the Church.  Kicking them out and then keeping all their money that they paid into the system, to most outside the church, would seem to be unfair.

 

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I suspect it was likewise rare when you were enrolled, and I question whether you’ve done a serious or accurate accounting to back up what you say. 

Well Scott, not everyone is a poor college student.   I started working at a restaurant when I was 15.  By the time I was 16 I was a cook.  The owner had three restaurants.  On Saturdays, I would manage one of the restaurants.  When I came home during the summer, I managed one of his restaurants full time, all summer.  I made enough money to not only pay for all of my college but also bought a new Mazda.  You can't judge everyone by your own personal experience.  And hey, if the student didn't pay much into tithing, then he is getting exactly what he paid in back.  Seems fair.  

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would it take for BYU to make its credits more easily transferable (asking because I honestly don’t know)?

I don't know. It seems that transferring credits between universities is often a problem whether one of the universities is BYU or not. It seems there are plenty of stories involving any number of universities where a student spends a lot of effort trying to convince their new university that credits from the old university need to transfer, but the new university is uncomfortable accepting transfer credits. I'm not sure BYU can do much except work on agreements with other universities on which credits will transfer. I do not know how extensively BYUP (or BYUI or BYUH) attempt to make and maintain these agreements. Without these kind of agreements, it seems there is a strong motivation, once you have started your college education, to stay where you are as far as transfer credits go. Sometimes, this feels to me like something baked into the overall university education system, which means BYU by itself is not influential enough to really change it.

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I wish students who had **no intention** of following the basics ... would ... bow out.

Ecclesiastical Endorsements (through students' and prospective students' bishops) are supposed to be the mechanism for filtering these people out. The system of ecclesiastical endorsement is not without its own controversies, but what could be done so that students with no intention of following even the basic rules would be "caught" by their bishops so that BYU could work on helping them off campus?

[ttribe]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yep.  If they want to drink and have premarital sex or same sex romantic/sexual relationships and don’t intend to restrain themselves, they would do better for themselves to transfer than to compromise their integrity and self image by deceit.

Someone forgot to mention this to Jim McMahon, back in the day.

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I don't know. It seems that transferring credits between universities is often a problem whether one of the universities is BYU or not. It seems there are plenty of stories involving any number of universities where a student spends a lot of effort trying to convince their new university that credits from the old university need to transfer, but the new university is uncomfortable accepting transfer credits.

Schools have a financial incentive to decline transferred credits, as most rejected credits will need to be made up in the new school.

12 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I'm not sure BYU can do much except work on agreements with other universities on which credits will transfer. I do not know how extensively BYUP (or BYUI or BYUH) attempt to make and maintain these agreements. Without these kind of agreements, it seems there is a strong motivation, once you have started your college education, to stay where you are as far as transfer credits go. Sometimes, this feels to me like something baked into the overall university education system, which means BYU by itself is not influential enough to really change it.

Yeah, I'm really not impressed with the academy these days.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Someone forgot to mention this to Jim McMahon, back in the day.

A relative of mine is in administration at BYU. Once I went into a coffee shop  in Provo, and his son, who was a senior at BYU, was drinking coffee with his girlfriend. He saw me and looked horrified. I just laughed and said, “Don’t worry, I won’t tell your mom.”

Did he violate the honor code? Yep. Was he a slimy, unethical scumbag robbing the widow’s mite? Hardly. 

[Scott Lloyd]

43 minutes ago, california boy said:

From what I am hearing, there are a fair number of students who start attending with the best of intentions, but they have a faith crisis or realize that they are LGBT while attending.

 

Then it shouldn't be a problem and certainly would be a good PR move on the part of the Church.  Kicking them out and then keeping all their money that they paid into the system, to most outside the church, would seem to be unfair.

 

Well Scott, not everyone is a poor college student.   I started working at a restaurant when I was 15.  By the time I was 16 I was a cook.  The owner had three restaurants.  On Saturdays, I would manage one of the restaurants.  When I came home during the summer, I managed one of his restaurants full time, all summer.  I made enough money to not only pay for all of my college but also bought a new Mazda.  You can't judge everyone by your own personal experience.  And hey, if the student didn't pay much into tithing, then he is getting exactly what he paid in back.  Seems fair.  

So do you have a response to my question, then? Under such an arrangement would you favor having the student pay back all he received in tuition subsidy (in effect doubling the cost of his education at BYU)? And what about university-provided grants and scholarships? How many of today’s college students do you realistically think would regard it as a bargain to get their tithing money refunded if they had to pay all of that back?
 

 If you wouldn’t favor that as a quid pro quo, why not? 

Do you believe your prosperity from well-paying summer jobs is typical of the experience of university students these days? 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I don't know. It seems that transferring credits between universities is often a problem whether one of the universities is BYU or not. It seems there are plenty of stories involving any number of universities where a student spends a lot of effort trying to convince their new university that credits from the old university need to transfer, but the new university is uncomfortable accepting transfer credits. I'm not sure BYU can do much except work on agreements with other universities on which credits will transfer. I do not know how extensively BYUP (or BYUI or BYUH) attempt to make and maintain these agreements. Without these kind of agreements, it seems there is a strong motivation, once you have started your college education, to stay where you are as far as transfer credits go. Sometimes, this feels to me like something baked into the overall university education system, which means BYU by itself is not influential enough to really change it.

 

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Schools have a financial incentive to decline transferred credits, as most rejected credits will need to be made up in the new school.

Yeah, I'm really not impressed with the academy these days.

Thanks,

-Smac

So I guess the take-away is that having BYU facilitate credit transfers is more complicated than some might assume. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Oh, and I can't believe you typed out s*****m on this thread! ;o

I would never not, when referring to the body part.  IMO there isn’t an inappropriate word referring to proper anatomy when it comes to the body.  I wouldn’t swear here, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with using appropriate words to refer to human anatomy.  As was my point in my post to begin with.

My cousin was not allowed to announce he and his wife’s “pregnancy” at the dinner table at his inlaws home.  They were “still trying to raise children.”  

There is just something about this type of sheltering that I find deeply disturbing. I won’t be part of the problem.  If I’m breaking a rule here, I’m sure someone will let me know. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

From what I am hearing, there are a fair number of students who start attending with the best of intentions, but they have a faith crisis or realize that they are LGBT while attending.

If they claimed to be believers and got the subsidy, makes sense the tithing is paid as part of that agreement.  Once they declare they are no longer believing, why would they pay tithing? If BYU changes and allows those who deconvert or convert to another faith to stay, the nonmember rules would not have them pay tithing.  If part of the agreement to stay is to retroactively apply the nonmember lower subsidy rate for the period where they were nonbelievers if they didn’t come forward right away, then it makes sense to deduct any tithing that was paid from that.

Personally I think a loss of belief is usually not an intentional covenant breaking and I would hope church leaders would allow forgiveness and continued presence of them like they allow those who break other parts of the honor code without intentionally setting out to do that.  As long as there was no attempt to deconvert other students (I am not talking about sharing their issues if asked about them), to me our covenant with the Lord to forgive and to serve others is as important as someone’s baptismal covenant.  I think it much better we try and help people be the best they can be no matter their personal beliefs (as long as they are not inherently harmful) than hold them accountable for something they might have had little control over due to their previous experience if there is a way that does not compromise our own standards.  Since we already allow nonmembers on campus, it is not a BYU standard to exclude nonmembers who are willing to abide by our honor code.  Looking at a student as a nonmember rather than a former believer does no harm to us personally imo.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I would never not, when referring to the body part.  IMO there isn’t an inappropriate word referring to proper anatomy when it comes to the body.  I wouldn’t swear here, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with using appropriate words to refer to human anatomy.  As was my point in my post to begin with.

My cousin was not allowed to announce he and his wife’s “pregnancy” at the dinner table at his inlaws home.  They were “still trying to raise children.”  

There is just something about this type of sheltering that I find deeply disturbing. I won’t be part of the problem.  If I’m breaking a rule here, I’m sure someone will let me know. 

Amen.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So I guess the take-away is that having BYU facilitate credit transfers is more complicated than some might assume. 

BYU is willing to live by standards not held by other schools in other ways, why not be mavericks and not adopt financially motivated credit discrimination?  If there is concern, give a student an interview or test to see if they have the skills and knowledge necessary.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This week there was a kerruffle at BYU I - an anatomy professor had “edited out” genitalia in the diagrams identifying the proper medical names for the entire body and its parts.  This because the freshmen were too young to be exposed to such things.  

Wait, you are not joking - this really happened in a college anatomy class???  Do they also put an apron of leaves over the cadaver's privates when studying it?  This is a disgusting perversion of human anatomy (equating it with shame or porn) and the professor should be fired.   The more shame you build up around these anatomical parts, the more porn addicts you create.  Go Cougs!  

There has to be some kind of joke about a urologist or gynecologist who studied at BYU.  

I heard a story once of a BYU couple who were having a hard time getting pregnant and they went to see their doctor about it.  Apparently a knowledge of anatomy was at fault and they were using the wrong hole. Only at BYU! 

Edited April 28, 2022 by pogi

[Vanguard]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I would never not, when referring to the body part.  IMO there isn’t an inappropriate word referring to proper anatomy when it comes to the body.  I wouldn’t swear here, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with using appropriate words to refer to human anatomy.  As was my point in my post to begin with.

My cousin was not allowed to announce he and his wife’s “pregnancy” at the dinner table at his inlaws home.  They were “still trying to raise children.”  

There is just something about this type of sheltering that I find deeply disturbing. I won’t be part of the problem.  If I’m breaking a rule here, I’m sure someone will let me know. 

Ahh, if my parents could only hear the nature of our dinner time conversations with my 20 yros son, 18 yros old daughter, and 14 yros (going on 20!) yros daughter. My in-laws live in the basement and my wife constantly reminds us to keep our voices down when we venture into topics that would have been verboten when I was a kid! ; ) 

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This week there was a kerruffle at BYU I - an anatomy professor had “edited out” genitalia in the diagrams identifying the proper medical names for the entire body and its parts.  This because the freshmen were too young to be exposed to such things.  

If people don’t take BYU seriously enough to accept transfer credits, maybe we can start with the basics.  Like knowing what a scrotum is and what it looks like when one is 19 years old and pre med. 

 

I wish students who had **no intention** of following the basics - cheating, drinking, drugging and sexing would (for their own benefits and for the honorable reason of leaving space for those who buy in to the honor code to be able to attend) bow out.

As for the OP,  I don’t have respect for this person’s  M.O.   - I don’t care if she’s bisexual or not. It appears to me that she is safely thumbing her nose at the honor code, and To Me the OP indicates that she intentionally flaunted her disobedience at graduation. I don’t think that’s cool.  The brave thing to do is to protest appropriately (not at others’ celebrations and expense) or attend elsewhere.  The honor code may not be honorable but the level of petty here seems, well, petty. IMO

There are so many kids who are well intentioned and make mistakes, and need life experience to grow and learn repentance because they were so sheltered in their parents homes that the world is overwhelming.  BYU is a lovely place for such young people.  I was one. I earned my stripes there, I use my degree, it’s a beautiful thing - but I have a son who has left and I’m glad.  I wish my oldest had not attended there.  He was wrong to do so IMO. 

IMO, I don't think BYU is a safe place to send your children because you have no idea what struggles or trials they will face when leaving home and maturing in the young adult years. It's not exactly an easy world out there. The massive educational consequences for a loss of faith or for mistakes/weaknesses is far too great to mingle the secular and spiritual in this way, Education/cost/time set backs are enormous and I would also say spiritual consequences are high with the two intermingled this way. Attend at your own risk. 

I wish students who knew they were not going to obey the rules would not attend but, in my personal observations, they are not the ones who get 'caught.' They have already mastered the art of lying.

I think BYU holding credits and diplomas hostage is a terrible practice. Just let people move on. 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by bsjkki

[MrShorty]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

BYU is willing to live by standards not held by other schools in other ways, why not be mavericks and not adopt financially motivated credit discrimination?  If there is concern, give a student an interview or test to see if they have the skills and knowledge necessary.

Sounds good, except that BYU cannot enforce that on other universities. So, BYU can certainly make it easier to transfer into BYU. But the process of encouraging other universities to accept BYU credits is in the hands of those other universities. What can BYU do to encourage others to accept their credit?

[Calm]

 

4 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Sounds good, except that BYU cannot enforce that on other universities. So, BYU can certainly make it easier to transfer into BYU. But the process of encouraging other universities to accept BYU credits is in the hands of those other universities. What can BYU do to encourage others to accept their credit?

We can’t enforce others to accept our honor code, but that doesn’t stop it (I went to BYU and still identify as one with it at times…apparently this is one of them, lol).

As far as encouraging others to accept it, if for financial reasons, not much we can do.  If it is because of beliefs something is lacking in our classes, find out what that is and see if it is a good or neutral and doable change, change if so and document the change.

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wait, you are not joking - this really happened in a college anatomy class???  Do they also put an apron of leaves over the cadaver's privates when studying it?  This is a disgusting perversion of human anatomy (equating it with shame or porn) and the professor should be fired.   The more shame you build up around these anatomical parts, the more porn addicts you create.  Go Cougs!  

There has to be some kind of joke about a urologist or gynecologist who studied at BYU.  

I heard a story once of a BYU couple who were having a hard time getting pregnant and they went to see their doctor about it.  Apparently a knowledge of anatomy was at fault and they were using the wrong hole. Only at BYU! 

There is another twitterer who says they are in the class and it isn’t censored.  The student has not shared the name of the professor, just the alleged syllabus pages.

Hopefully this is the syllabus, but I don’t have time to check it right now even to see if student ID is required

https://byui.instructure.com/courses/574/assignments/syllabus

I was wrong, I had time…you need ID.  I don’t know if BYUI ID is enough though.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Calm

[Senator]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I wish students who knew they were not going to obey the rules would not attend...

 

If that were the case BYU's student body count would be a fraction of what it is, according to my sophomore daughter currenty attending.  I brought up what is being discussed in this very thread.  She exclaimed, "Dad, everyone, evvverrryyyone is either drinking, smoking pot, having sEx or any combination the three."  I of course said that that obviously isn't true, right???  She agreed, and then in all seriousness said that if she had to assign a number, she would put it at 80%.  I still question the accuracy of the number.  Nevertheless,  her firsthand observations is pretty sobering.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Senator

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Senator said:

If that were the case BYU's student body count would be a fraction of what it is, according to my sophomore daughter currenty attending.  I brought up what is being discussed in this very thread.  She exclaimed, "Dad, everyone, evvverrryyyone is either drinking, smoking pot, having sEx or any combination the three."  I of course said that that obviously isn't true.  She agreed, and then in all seriousness said that if she had to assign a number, she would put it at 80%.  I still question the accuracy of the number.  Nevertheless,  her firsthand observations is pretty sobering.

My son came home from his mission, went off to BYUI and his roommates had beer in the fridge. Not exactly a stellar start for him. I think young adults do all kinds of crazy things. In my day, most seemed to follow the rules. I do not doubt that percentage has dropped enormously. Which, I find sad. But, almost everyone I knew broke a rule here or there. Mostly curfew and minor things. I broke curfew repeatedly. The beaches in Hawaii were absolutely beautiful in the moonlight.

Edited April 28, 2022 by bsjkki

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hopefully this is the syllabus, but I don’t have time to check it right now even to see if student ID is required

https://byui.instructure.com/courses/574/assignments/syllabus

I was wrong, I had time…you need ID.  I don’t know if BYUI ID is enough though.

This syllabus is for a biology rather than anatomy course.  I would be less concerned if this happened in a biology class.

From the syllabus:

In this course, students will study topics in the following areas:

• Biological chemistry
• Cellular structure and function
• Metabolism

 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

This syllabus is for a biology rather than anatomy course.  I would be less concerned if this happened in a biology class.

From the syllabus:

In this course, students will study topics in the following areas:

• Biological chemistry
• Cellular structure and function
• Metabolism

 

Okay, that is weird.  Could have sworn I hit this link:

https://byui.instructure.com/courses/124872/assignments/syllabus

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

BYU is willing to live by standards not held by other schools in other ways, why not be mavericks and not adopt financially motivated credit discrimination?  If there is concern, give a student an interview or test to see if they have the skills and knowledge necessary.

What I’m hearing is that it’s not as easy as you make it sound, that difficulty in transferring credits is baked into the system, that other schools might not want the transferred credits despite BYU’s offer. 

[rongo]

26 minutes ago, Senator said:

If that were the case BYU's student body count would be a fraction of what it is, according to my sophomore daughter currenty attending.  I brought up what is being discussed in this very thread.  She exclaimed, "Dad, everyone, evvverrryyyone is either drinking, smoking pot, having sEx or any combination the three."  I of course said that that obviously isn't true.  She agreed, and then in all seriousness said that if she had to assign a number, she would put it at 80%.  I still question the accuracy of the number.  Nevertheless,  her firsthand observations is pretty sobering.

My dad was a YSA bishop for six years, at the same time that I was a bishop the first time. We often shared stories and compared experiences. He said that the level of immorality among Church-attending youth is staggering. Many of them rationalize or justify practices that stop technically short of intercourse, but are against the spirit and the letter of the law of chastity (and they know it, too, they just don't care). 

There are a lot of seminary youth who bring coffee from Dutch Brothers or Starbucks into seminary, so that more is crumbling among seminary-attending youth.