BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[smac97]

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

That’s funny.

I sense a "Yeah-but-whatabout" coming.

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Maybe could have worked back before Ensign Peak was leaked to the masses.

And there it is.

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

At best you can say that she used dollars that would have been stored indefinitely in a 120 billion dollar stock portfolio.  Better would be to say she held a spot another student wanted. 

Sure, that too.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited April 27, 2022 by smac97

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's quite the assumption.

Unless you're like SMAC who believes handholding is breaking the LoC.

Or unless your like Jillian Orr, who publicly stated that "{a}t BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship," and that she was "{in} this relationship with this girl that {she} really loved," that she had to "hide" at BYU, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited April 27, 2022 by smac97

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Or unless your like Jillian Orr, who publicly stated that "{a}t BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship," and that she was "in a  homosexual relationship," that she had to "hide" at BYU, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

And do you assume everyone that is a hetero relationship has also broken the LoC or do you reserve those assumptions for LGBTQ individuals?

[Vanguard]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not understanding what you mean by this sentence.

Her 'announcement' comes off as defiant against the standards of the university and Church. For me, it has nothing to do with her bi-sexuality but rather her willingness to revel in going against the code. Now, if it's established that she remained chaste while romantically involved with another, my stance softens though I still have an issue with her public proclamation. If it's established she did not honor the code, then my reaction is stronger.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And do you assume everyone that is a hetero relationship has also broken the LoC or do you reserve those assumptions for LGBTQ individuals?

I think people who say that while they were at BYU they were at risk of getting kicked out because of their behavior relative to the Honor Code should . . . be taken at their word.

Thanks,

-Smac

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

Her 'announcement' comes off as defiant against the standards of the university and Church. For me, it has nothing to do with her bi-sexuality but rather her willingness to revel in going against the code. Now, if it's established that she remained chaste while romantically involved with another, my stance softens though I still have an issue with her public proclamation. If it's established she did not honor the code, then my reaction is stronger.

Magnanimous.

So you're ok with someone being gay/bi as long as they stay quiet about it? Don't ask/don't tell?

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

Her 'announcement' comes off as defiant against the standards of the university and Church. For me, it has nothing to do with her bi-sexuality but rather her willingness to revel in going against the code. Now, if it's established that she remained chaste while romantically involved with another, my stance softens though I still have an issue with her public proclamation. If it's established she did not honor the code, then my reaction is stronger.

If a heterosexual student made a big splash at graduation about how he had been violating the Honor Code, and publicly gloated and bragged about it now that he has his degree and so has gotten away with it, I would also be bothered by that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Magnanimous.

So you're ok with someone being gay/bi as long as they stay quiet about it? Don't ask/don't tell?

I expect people who affirmatively agree to abide by the Honor Code to keep their word.  

I expect people who affirmatively agree to abide by the Honor Code to not brag and gloat after-the-fact about violating it in order to garner praise and attention.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Vanguard]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you found out that a close friend or relative violated the honor code while at BYU and lied to his/her bishop and others so that they could finish out their schooling unimpeded, would you be equally compelled to denigrate and shame them online over it?  Or, is there more to the story as to what is bothering you the most about this story?

And what about if said close friend proudly made this announcement during graduation that he had behaved in a way that ran afoul of the honor code?

[Vanguard]

46 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Something that that happens far more often than something like this is people who graduate from BYU and then instantly go inactive. The same thing happens with missionaries, people game the system and then bail on it and that happens far more often than this kind of thing.

This is an issue with the honor code, not with a individual's changing personal beliefs. OF COURSE we all have friends who went to BYU but who no longer practice the faith. That's not the issue.

[Vanguard]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Magnanimous.

So you're ok with someone being gay/bi as long as they stay quiet about it? Don't ask/don't tell?

It's troubling that another would end up behaving in ways that run contrary to the code. As I said in an earlier post, I'm sure there are thousands who have done so (of which I am one). It's another issue when someone parades this reality during the graduation ceremony. If indeed it is found that she really does mean that she broke the code as well the LOC, then I am sorely disappointed in her character. 

[Vanguard]

46 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m turn on BYU honor code issues. I think it’s important and valuable for the church to be able to have a safe space centered on their faith. On the other hand, I know the immense pressure put on 18 year olds by their families with tacit church approval to attend only BYU. These are young people who have grown up in an environment sheltered(? Not sure on best word here) from the world going on a multi year experience to discover themselves. For the fraction that figure out midway through the church is not a good fit for them, there are exactly zero good options (by design?) to extricate themselves from that situation. 

I largely agree with you though she did not have to revel in the reality that she kept things 'on the down low'.

[Vanguard]

35 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

No, it's not about horror or PTSD.  It's about respect for your fellow graduates and those attending who support them.  It's about taking a spotlight that should be shinning on the accomplishments of all the graduates and using it to highlight your sexuality. 

And her possible defiance of the code.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

If indeed it is found that she really does mean that she broke the code as well the LOC, then I am sorely disappointed in her character. 

 

[smac97]

50 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m torn on BYU honor code issues.

Broadly speaking, I can understand that.

But here we have a wanton and deliberate violation of the Honor Code, repeatedly lying about it, and a public and gloating bird-flip to the Church after she knew she could get away with it.

50 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think it’s important and valuable for the church to be able to have a safe space centered on their faith. On the other hand, I know the immense pressure put on 18 year olds by their families with tacit church approval to attend only BYU.

Broadly speaking, I can understand that too.

But Jillian Orr is 28.  Twenty eight years old.

50 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

These are young people who have grown up in an environment sheltered(? Not sure on best word here) from the world going on a multi year experience to discover themselves. For the fraction that figure out midway through the church is not a good fit for them, there are exactly zero good options (by design?) to extricate themselves from that situation. 

I think this is getting harder and harder to sell as time goes by, particularly since it seems like a means of rationalizing patently dishonest behavior.

Students at BYU typically have the grades and scores to give them hundreds of alternative options for their education.  So I'm not inclined to excuse patently dishonest conduct by Jillian Orr, who is 28 years old, by suggesting she didn't know any better, or that she was forced to go to BYU (she has said nothing to that effect), or that she had no other options (she clearly did).

Thanks,

-Smac

[strappinglad]

I supervised HS grads for 15 years. We had to be VERY strict about what kids wore under the gowns, otherwise we would get everything and , in one case, nothing. One would think that the urge to put a " look at me " sign on would fade, but no. Imagine the outcry if some grad unveiled a swastika  or BLM flag or , heaven forbid, a MAGA hat. Different groups would be triggered.  

 

Perhaps we should put more emphasis on being true to your word. 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

This is an issue with the honor code, not with a individual's changing personal beliefs. OF COURSE we all have friends who went to BYU but who no longer practice the faith. That's not the issue.

She also said "You can’t be in a relationship unless you’re hetero and most of my classes spoke of the “evil” that I was born into. "

One of the honor codes is "Respect others"

https://policy.byu.edu/view/church-educational-system-honor-code

I wonder how many of those people telling her she was the evil she was born into were respecting her? That's a violation. You should be outraged at the disrespect shown towards her. Besides of which the comments shown on here against her, by BYU grads,  tell me the "honor code" is essentially worthless if it's blown off when you walk out of BYU after graduating, it didn't seem to do these people any good. 

 

so, yes, it is the issue

Edited April 27, 2022 by Duncan

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

She spoke of "being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved."  Also:

She is acting as if she was violating the Honor Code, and had to keep it a secret.  Do you think otherwise?

I hadn't seen her comments about being in a relationship. I suppose it is technically possible that such a relationship wasn't physical, but it's eminently reasonable to believe otherwise - especially when taken in conjunction with her other comments.

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

Wow.  Quite a splashy way to start a career.  "Hey!  Here's how I lied to my school and my religion for economic advantage and got away with it!"

I can appreciate the tension between experiencing SSA and abiding by the Honor Code.  I think characterizing BYU as "a hostile environment," though, particularly in 2022, is a overwrought.

So she didn't want to give up that sweet sweet subsidized and high-quality education.

"They" expect students by abide by the Honor Code.  The one she knew about and voluntarily agreed to prior to enrolling.

She seems to be suggesting that she was "in a  homosexual relationship" (such that she had to "hide").  If so, this wasn't about personal integrity, or about being "authentic."  She lied to BYU just long enough to finish up having her education provided and heavily subsidized by a religion she disrespected during its formal graduation ceremony.

Not impressed.

Translation: "Actually, I will hide my violation of the Honor Code, but only long enough to obtain a high-quality education through deceit and false pretenses.  And then I won't hide, and I'll be seen Tik Tok and flaunt and brag about how I lied to BYU and got away with it."

Translation: "Live your life authentically, but only after you have lied to BYU and to your bishop.  After that, you can go on Tik Tok and publicize just how dishonest you were."

There are hundreds and hundreds of other schools where Jillian Orr could have been "authentic."  At BYU she got a high-quality and heavily-subsidized education, conditioned on - among other things - living according to the Honor Code.  It looks like she did not.  It looks like she instead repeatedly lied in order to get her education under false pretenses.  And then, at graduation and on Tik Tok, she flaunted her dishonesty.

Yeesh.

Thanks,

-Smac

ETA: 

Having gone to BYU twice, I can say that the Honor Code is not "scary" to anyone except those who are secretly breaking it.

And here:

This is bull.  She could have transferred to any of hundreds of other schools at any time if she did not want to live by the Honor Code.  This wasn't about her "potentially losing everything."  Instead, she chose to use lies and false pretenses to gain economic advantage for herself.

-Smac

Just goes to show, if someone can figure out a way to stay in the school they love, they can figure out a way to stay in the Church they love.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

No.  It looks like she lied about her behavior.

Quote

The text of her TikTok reads: “At BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship. If you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences.

“They threaten to take away your degree and kick you out of the university. Students are afraid to be who they are, so they hide out of fear until they get out.

Thanks,

-Smac

And just where in the TikTok quote does it say that SHE was in a homosexual relationship?

[smac97]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

And just where in the TikTok quote does it say that SHE was in a homosexual relationship?

Read the OP.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I hadn't seen her comments about being in a relationship. I suppose it is technically possible that such a relationship wasn't physical, but it's eminently reasonable to believe otherwise - especially when taken in conjunction with her other comments.

"'I had really good professors and it was a pleasant environment. It's a prestigious school. And then halfway through my experience, I started to discover more and more about my sexuality of being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved,' Orr continued."

I'm soort of reminded of remarks by Mitch Mayne back in 2016:

Quote

I’m not your typical gay man – but I’m also not your typical Mormon.

From 2011 to 2013, I served as executive secretary in the bishopric of my home congregation in San Francisco as my authentic self – an openly gay man.
...
Mitch Mayne is an openly gay, active Latter-day Saint (Mormon), and from 2011 to 2013 served as the executive secretary in the bishopric (ecclesiastical leadership) of the LDS Church in San Francisco. He is now a national voice on Mormon LGBT issues, and promotes bridge-building between the Mormon and the LGBT communities.

I remember at the time thinking "I wonder what 'my authentic self' and 'openly gay' mean in this context?"  I noted at the time:

Quote

This is misleading in a few ways.  First, him being called as an executive secretary has nothing to do with the merits of his argument.  It's a classically fallacious appeal to authority.

Second, executive secretaries are not "in the bishopric."  They do not hold those keys.  They do not need to be High Priests (unlike members of a bishopric, who do).  They have no voice in bishopric decisions (although our bishop occasionally invites our ward's executive secretary and ward clerk to chime in on some issues during their bishopric meetings).  They cannot preside in a meeting where a bishopric member is supposed to.  They cannot set people apart in callings.  They cannot count tithing.  They do not participate in disciplinary proceedings.  They do not perform temple recommend interviews.  They are not in the bishopric.  It is simply false for him to declare otherwise.

Finally, I think "openly gay" is rather ambiguous.  If "openly gay" means "open about having a same-sex orientation, but adhering to The Law of Chastity and its prohibition against homosexual conduct," then I'd be fine with it.  But I think the audience of "Gay Star News" probably doesn't take "openly gay" to mean that.  

So as regarding Jillian Orr, when she speaks of realizing she is gay, that she then made the conscious and deliberate decision to "stay {at BYU} because of the low tuition fees, well-respected psychology department," that she was in "this relationship with this girl that {she} really loved," and of how "{a}t BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship," and that "{i}f you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences. ... They threaten to take away your degree and kick you out of the university," and that she will "not hide {anymore}," well, put two and two together.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

She also said "You can’t be in a relationship unless you’re hetero and most of my classes spoke of the “evil” that I was born into. "

I have a hard time taking this comment from her at face value. Especially after watching her tiktok on the "most homophobic thing I have ever seen at BYU," where she posted a question from a quiz in one of her marriage and family classes (see question below). 

Question: One who truly loves LGBTQ people will _________?

     A. Love them conditionally based on whether they live according to the gospel plan.

     B. Love them unconditionally while constantly challenging their life choices in an effort to help them follow the gospel plan.

     C. Love them unconditionally and accept that whatever they want as what is best for them.

     D. Love them unconditionally while continuing to realize that their greatest happiness will come through living according to the gospel plan. 

 

I wouldn't characterize that as being anything remotely like saying bisexual people are born into evil.

Also, it appears that she intentionally answered the question wrong with the specific intent of making that particular video. 

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Read the OP.

Yeah, I read. your OP where you accused her of having a girlfriend and lying about the honor code, but there is NOTHING in what she actually said that states that.

Basically you are burning her at the stake by guessing that she might have been in a relationship, and then ginning up everyone to outrage.  

Typical

So I ask you again, quote exactly where she said that she was in a gay relationship while at BYU

So far, is all you have quoted is this.

Quote

The text of her TikTok reads: “At BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship. If you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences.

 

Obviously there is nothing in that quote that says that she was in a relationship while at BYU, is all she is talking about is how the Honor Code works, which is all true.  Probably needs to be said because she is addressing her comments to people who may not be familiar with the BYU honor code that has no idea the dating or just holding hands has severe consequences.  

 

Want to try again and actually answer the question???

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Yeah, I read. your OP where you accused her of having a girlfriend and lying about the honor code, but there is NOTHING in what she actually said that states that.

Basically you are burning her at the stake by guessing that she might have been in a relationship, and then ginning up everyone to outrage.  

Typical

So I ask you again, quote exactly where she said that she was in a gay relationship while at BYU

So far, is all you have quoted is this.

Obviously there is nothing in that quote that says that she was in a relationship while at BYU, is all she is talking about is how the Honor Code works, which is all true.  Probably needs to be said because she is addressing her comments to people who may not be familiar with the BYU honor code that has no idea the dating or just holding hands has severe consequences.  

 

Want to try again and actually answer the question???

I guess I just don’t have the same unending well of moral outrage that some others do. She’s gay and proud of it. Big fricking deal. Good for her.