BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

A student at the Mormon Brigham Young University (BYU) made a bold rainbow statement as she graduated from the anti-LGBT+ college.

Jillian Orr, 28, majored in psychology at BYU in Utah, which is owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS), commonly known as the Mormon church.

Wow.  Quite a splashy way to start a career.  "Hey!  Here's how I lied to my school and my religion for economic advantage and got away with it!"

Quote

Half-way through her course Orr, who was raised Mormon, realised that she was bisexual. Even though Orr felt uncomfortable and alone in such a hostile environment, she “came to the realisation that this is who I was and it was beautiful”, she told Today.

I can appreciate the tension between experiencing SSA and abiding by the Honor Code.  I think characterizing BYU as "a hostile environment," though, particularly in 2022, is a overwrought.

Quote

However, she decided to stay because of the low tuition fees, well-respected psychology department, and the fact that her credits for BYU’s many required Mormon religion classes would not be transferrable to another university.

So she didn't want to give up that sweet sweet subsidized and high-quality education.

Quote

The text of her TikTok reads: “At BYU it’s against the Honor Code to be in a homosexual relationship. If you are discovered to be dating or just holding hands there are severe consequences.

“They threaten to take away your degree and kick you out of the university. Students are afraid to be who they are, so they hide out of fear until they get out.

"They" expect students by abide by the Honor Code.  The one she knew about and voluntarily agreed to prior to enrolling.

She seems to be suggesting that she was "in a  homosexual relationship" (such that she had to "hide").  If so, this wasn't about personal integrity, or about being "authentic."  She lied to BYU just long enough to finish up having her education provided and heavily subsidized by a religion she disrespected during its formal graduation ceremony.

Not impressed.

Quote

“I will not hide.  I will be seen. In front of the entire school.”

Translation: "Actually, I will hide my violation of the Honor Code, but only long enough to obtain a high-quality education through deceit and false pretenses.  And then I won't hide, and I'll be seen on Tik Tok and flaunt and brag about how I lied to BYU and got away with it."

Quote

Orr told Today that after leaving the auditorium, another BYU graduate approached her to say that her girlfriend had seen the colourful statement on TV and was so proud.

“I impacted another graduate who just got out… who felt like she had to hide,” she said.

Explaining her message to other LGBT+ Mormons, she added: “I hope that they recognise that the sooner they live their life authentically, the sooner they can tap into true happiness. The faster you do the scary thing, the sooner you can be free.”

Translation: "Live your life authentically, but only after you have lied to BYU and to your bishop.  After that, you can go on Tik Tok and publicize just how dishonest you were."

There are hundreds and hundreds of other schools where Jillian Orr could have been "authentic."  At BYU she got a high-quality and heavily-subsidized education, conditioned on - among other things - living according to the Honor Code.  It looks like she did not.  It looks like she instead repeatedly lied in order to get her education under false pretenses.  And then, at graduation and on Tik Tok, she flaunted her dishonesty.

Yeesh.

Thanks,

-Smac

ETA: 

Quote

During her time at BYU, Orr was aware of the risks of being caught in a same-sex relationship.

"It was always scary," said Orr.

Having gone to BYU twice, I can say that the Honor Code is not "scary" to anyone except those who are secretly breaking it.

And here:

Quote

Orr told “Good Morning America” that she used to be a devout Mormon and when she decided to go back to school to further her social work career, she chose Brigham Young for its religious ties.
...
“I had really good professors and it was a pleasant environment. It's a prestigious school. And then halfway through my experience, I started to discover more and more about my sexuality of being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved,” Orr continued.
...
“I realized that BYU does not - it's against their policies and against their rules, their codes for homosexual individuals to act on those feelings, and to be in relationships,” she added. “And if you do, they will threaten to kick you out of the school or remove your degree from you and so it's really scary to be in that situation of potentially losing everything that you've worked for.”

This is bull.  She could have transferred to any of hundreds of other schools at any time if she did not want to live by the Honor Code.  This wasn't about her "potentially losing everything."  Instead, she chose to use lies and false pretenses to gain economic advantage for herself.

-Smac

Edited April 28, 2022 by smac97

[Durangout]

Exactly right.

[bluebell]

I'm on the fence with this.  On the one hand, I don't think there was anything wrong with her graduation gown.  She can make whatever statement she wants, if she has fulfilled the requirements for graduation and doesn't do something that bars her from attending the ceremony.

At the same time, my tithing money helps to subsidize BYU, so yeah, there's a part of me that is annoyed when people take that money and then complain about it.

[Vanguard]

I have no problem with her sexual orientation. I have a MASSIVE problem with her rubbing it in the face of the very institution/church she profited from due to her membership. The higher road would have been to move on to another university where this is not an issue. You know, making a principled decision... Good grief. : (

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm on the fence with this. 

I'm not.  She deliberately lied.  To BYU.  To her bishop.  For economic and personal advantage.  She had many, many alternatives to this course of action.  And then she compounded things by publicly flaunting and bragging about her dishonesty.  

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

On the one hand, I don't think there was anything wrong with her graduation gown. 

My main beef is the dishonesty, and the fact that she flaunted that dishonesty during the graduation ceremony.  

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

She can make whatever statement she wants,

Well, no.  Graduation ceremonies should be dignified affairs.  Time, place and manner matter.

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

if she has fulfilled the requirements for graduation and doesn't do something that bars her from attending the ceremony.

Would lying to BYU (and her ecclesiastical leader) about her compliance with the Honor Code - something she had agreed to do - fit within those "requirements?"

Probably not.  I think she knew she was going to get away with having violated the Honor Code, so why not flaunt it on her way out the door?

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

At the same time, my tithing money helps to subsidize BYU, so yeah, there's a part of me that is annoyed when people take that money and then complain about it.

She lied, brazenly and deliberately and repeatedly, in order to use the Widow's Mite to subsidize her high quality education.  She used lies and false pretenses to use the Widow's Mite for her economic advantage.  That is what pushes me off the fence.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MrShorty]

Are we mostly bothered about the public flaunting of the honor code violation or about the actual honor code violation? I expect (and I don't think anyone else would be surprised) that there are several students in the current graduating class who violated or are violating the honor code who did not go public.

It seems superficial (not sure that is the right word) if we are going to focus our ire only on Orr and only be bothered because of the public display while ignoring the quiet ones who also got degrees with various and sundry violations of the honor code. At the same time, I don't know what to suggest to get better enforcement (without turning BYU into a mini police state).

[Vanguard]

1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

Are we mostly bothered about the public flaunting of the honor code violation or about the actual honor code violation? I expect (and I don't think anyone else would be surprised) that there are several students in the current graduating class who violated or are violating the honor code who did not go public.

It seems superficial (not sure that is the right word) if we are going to focus our ire only on Orr and only be bothered because of the public display while ignoring the quiet ones who also got degrees with various and sundry violations of the honor code. At the same time, I don't know what to suggest to get better enforcement (without turning BYU into a mini police state).

That's a good point though I am still mostly bothered by the public flaunting considering the tenor of relations today.

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I have no problem with her sexual orientation.

Same here.  

10 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I have a MASSIVE problem with her rubbing it in the face of the very institution/church she profited from due to her membership. The higher road would have been to move on to another university where this is not an issue. You know, making a principled decision... Good grief. : (

She's being praised to the skies on social media.

She repeatedly lied to steal the Widow's Mite, and then publicly bragged about it to garner adulation and attention and praise to herself.  

Nothing praiseworthy about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

Ahhhh…..outrage porn. Oh yeah, that is the good stuff.

Wait…..did she actually break the Honor Code or is everyone just reading that into it? She identified herself as bisexual but nothing about actually having sex with anyone. So…..where’s the actual problem?

[Stormin' Mormon]

How is coming out as bisexual at BYU a problem? For either the individual or the school? 

I am assuming that bisexual means that a person is equally attracted to both men and women, and can therefore choose which individuals to pursue romantically.  A bisexual person therefore has a choice that is not available to their gay or lesbian classmates.  They can limit themselves to dating members of the opposite sex for the duration of their time at BYU and still be successful in culitvating romantic relationships. They are in a position to choose to obey the honor code with very little sacrifice of "their authentic self." 

It's no different from an LDS person at a public university who limits their dating pool to other LDS individuals.  Yeah, there may be some attractive dating candidates outside the pool, but there are plenty of attractive candidates within the pool.

Add to the fact that "being gay" or "feeling same sex attractions" are not honor code violations.  Like at all.  Coming out as bisexual at BYU is entirely meaningless.

I don't get it.  What am I missing?

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon
edited for clarity

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

How is coming out as bisexual at BYU a problem? 

I am assuming that bisexual means that a person is equally attracted to both men and women, and can therefore choose which individuals to pursue romantically.  A bisexual person can therefore limit themselves to dating members of the opposite sex for the duration of their time at BYU.  It's no different from an LDS person at a state school limiting their dating pool to other LDS individuals.  Yeah, there may be some attractive dating candidates outside the pool, but there are plenty of attractive candidates within the pool.

Add to the fact that "being gay" or "feeling same sex attractions" are not honor code violations.  Like at all.  Coming out as bisexual at BYU is entirely meaningless. 

I don't get it.  What am I missing?

 

You probably aren’t addicted enough to anger. Try adding more propaganda to your media diet. You can get there.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Are we mostly bothered about the public flaunting of the honor code violation

I'm mostly bothered with the lying the deceit for economic advantage.  The public flaunting of the lies/deceit just exacerbates things.

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

or about the actual honor code violation?

I'm mostly bothered by her using lies and deceit to hide the Honor Code violation, and to gain economic advantage to herself through theft of the Widow's Mite.

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I expect (and I don't think anyone else would be surprised) that there are several students in the current graduating class who violated or are violating the honor code who did not go public.

Yes, we live in a fallen world.  

It is bad to lie and steal, and not because of necessity but because of preference.  It is perhaps worse to lie and steal and then publicly brag about it so that others will shower you with praise.

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

It seems superficial (not sure that is the right word) if we are going to focus our ire only on Orrand only be bothered because of the public display while ignoring the quiet ones who also got degrees with various and sundry violations of the honor code.

She's the only one bragging about lying to her bishop and to BYU, and deliberately violating the Honor Code, and doing so to gain economic advantage to herself, and proclaiming all of these things on social media to garner adulation and praise for her behavior.

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

At the same time, I don't know what to suggest to get better enforcement (without turning BYU into a mini police state).

There will always be people who resort to lies and deceit to get ahead in life.

Not all of them will do so and then take splashy and self-agrandizing bows for it on Tik Tok, as Jillian Orr did.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

Quote

Are we mostly bothered about the public flaunting of the honor code violation or about the actual honor code violation? I expect (and I don't think anyone else would be surprised) that there are several students in the current graduating class who violated or are violating the honor code who did not go public.

I am bothered by intentional and arrogant (not really the word I want, but flagrant does not quite convey the nuance I am looking for either…maybe something along the lines of reveling in their violations) breaking of the Honor Code.  There are those who break it repeatedly, but still desire to keep it I am guessing.  I believe these should be forgiven and supported in their efforts rather than suspended or expelled.  There are those who break it, but accept it is the standard of the school they are choosing to attend and therefore intend to keep it in the future.  I think these should be allowed to stay as long as they don’t repeatedly put themselves into situations they know will lead to having to make a choice to break it or not and they choose at times to break it.
 

Those who not only do not desire to keep the Honor Code, but perhaps even look for opportunities to break it (I remember reading someone bragging they had broken every rule of the Honor Code save one), that deeply troubles me because of the sacrifices made to pay tithing which heavily subsidies every student’s education.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Calm

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

How is coming out as bisexual at BYU a problem?  For either the individual or the school? 

It's not.  But saying or implying that it is doesn't fit the narrative.

4 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I am assuming that bisexual means that a person is equally attracted to both men and women, and can therefore choose which individuals to pursue romantically.  A bisexual person therefore has a choice that is not available to their gay or lesbian classmates.  They can limit themselves to dating members of the opposite sex for the duration of their time at BYU.  It's no different from an LDS person at a state school limiting their dating pool to other LDS individuals.  Yeah, there may be some attractive dating candidates outside the pool, but there are plenty of attractive candidates within the pool.

Add to the fact that "being gay" or "feeling same sex attractions" are not honor code violations.  Like at all.  Coming out as bisexual at BYU is entirely meaningless. 

I don't get it.  What am I missing?

See here:

Quote

“I had really good professors and it was a pleasant environment. It's a prestigious school. And then halfway through my experience, I started to discover more and more about my sexuality of being bisexual and having and falling into this relationship with this girl that I really loved,” Orr continued.

She's being misleading when she implies that "being bisexual" is an Honor Code violation.

"Having and falling into a {lesbian} relationship" is the likely issue.  I suspect she had engaged in behavior that was incompatible with the Honor Code, so she lied about that behavior.  To her bishop.  To BYU.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

50 minutes ago, bluebell said:

she can make whatever statement she wants,

I would disagree with this sentiment.  There are many, many ways in which this student could have announced to her friends, family, and the world what her sexual orientation was.  Instead she chose to take a ceremony intended to honor those graduating from the school and turn into into her coming out announcement.  While it may have been legal it showed little regard for the other students and those who were attending to support them.

Edited April 27, 2022 by ksfisher

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am bothered by the intentional and arrogant (not really the word I want, but flagrant does not quite convey the nuance I am looking for either…maybe something along the lines of reveling in their violations) breaking of the Honor Code.  

I am bothered by the reveling, yes.  But that's an aggravating element to the more substantive issue, which is the lying and false pretenses.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are those who break it repeatedly, but still desire to keep it I am guessing.  I believe these should be forgiven and supported in their efforts rather than suspended or expelled.  

Same here.  There is good faith here.  There is no use of false pretenses to steal for personal advantage.  There is, instead, the succumbing to temptations.  A person working through that process needs plenty of pastoral care and guidance.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are those who break it, but accept it is the standard of the school they are choosing to attend and therefore intend to keep it in the future.  I think these should be allowed to stay as long as they don’t repeatedly put themselves into situations they know will lead to having to make a choice to break it or not.

I am fine with good faith but imperfect efforts to abide by the Honor Code.  

I am bothered by folks like Jillian Orr, who use lies and deceit to hide their violation of the Honor Code, and do so for their personal economic advantage.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Those who not only do not desire to keep the Honor Code, but perhaps even look for opportunities to break it (I remember reading someone bragging they had broken every rule of the Honor Code save one), that deeply troubles me because of the sacrifices made to pay tithing which heavily subsidies every student’s education.

Either Jillian Orr is

A) utterly immature and self-absorbed, such that she is unaware of the ramifications of what she has done, or else

B) she knows perfectly well that she used false pretenses to have her education heavily subsidized by the Widow's Mite, and she is perfectly fine with that.

Neither of these speaks well of her.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Same here.  

She's being praised to the skies on social media.

She repeatedly lied to steal the Widow's Mite, and then publicly bragged about it to garner adulation and attention and praise to herself.  

Nothing praiseworthy about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Every single post you have made about this person is that she lied about her orientation.  Is it against the honor code to not tell anyone you are bisexual?  Do you have ANY proof that she acted on that orientation in any way?  Because you are making assumptions and then building a whole thread about those assumptions.

This is what you wrote.

Quote

She seems to be suggesting that she was "in a  homosexual relationship" (such that she had to "hide").  

Now you are building an entire case against her based on your accusation?  Always jumping to the worst guessing you can pick out of someone's comments.  You do this a LOT. I am sure there are a lot of students that hide their orientation simply because they don't want to be targets, similar to the one you have pinned on her back.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

She seems to be suggesting that she was "in a  homosexual relationship" (such that she had to "hide").  If so, this wasn't about personal integrity, or about being "authentic."  She lied to BYU just long enough to finish up having her education provided and heavily subsidized by a religion she disrespected during its formal graduation ceremony.

Possibly. Or it could merely be that she wanted to engage in activities that would have been in violation of the Honor Code, but she had to hide who she truly was by abstaining from acting on those desires until after she graduated.

Now, if there is evidence that she was actually in a same sex relationship and engaging in behavior which violates the Honor Code prior to graduating I might feel differently, but I think we should refrain from repeating the charge of her lying to BYU, her bishop, etc. as though all of that were a fact without actual evidence of it being the case.

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Amulek

[california boy]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Ahhhh…..outrage porn. Oh yeah, that is the good stuff.

Wait…..did she actually break the Honor Code or is everyone just reading that into it? She identified herself as bisexual but nothing about actually having sex with anyone. So…..where’s the actual problem?

So quick read in their own bias and ready to burn her at the stake based not that assumption.  Geeeze this gets so tiring. 

[MrShorty]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Is it against the honor code to not tell anyone you are bisexual?  Do you have ANY proof that she acted on that orientation in any way?

My understanding is that it is not against the honor code to be publicly out. She did say that she has a girlfriend. It has been clear that many believe that simply having a girlfriend is tantamount to having sex with said girlfriend -- which will devolve into the question of whether romantic behavior is the same as sexual behavior and there are some in this group that believe they are equivalent, and BYU's honor code includes that letter from Elder Johnston that says that homoromantic behavior (including a girl having a girlfriend, I assume) is against the honor code. For the purposes of this discussion, I am not going to take a stand on whether that is the correct interpretation of things.

[Vanguard]

There are probably 10s of thousands of BYU alumni who have broken the honor code in one way or another (of which I am one). For me, that is not the issue as much as flaunting this reality for all to see during the culmination of a top-class education that is significantly subsidized by folks who assume we will attend the university and strive to honor it's precepts. Instead, we get a middle-finger for such hopes/expectations. I'm sure the graduate will do well professionally. Now, she gets to harangue to all who will listen about the injustice of it all. The irony is breathtaking... : ( 

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

My understanding is that it is not against the honor code to be publicly out. She did say that she has a girlfriend. It has been clear that many believe that simply having a girlfriend is tantamount to having sex with said girlfriend -- which will devolve into the question of whether romantic behavior is the same as sexual behavior and there are some in this group that believe they are equivalent, and BYU's honor code includes that letter from Elder Johnston that says that homoromantic behavior (including a girl having a girlfriend, I assume) is against the honor code. For the purposes of this discussion, I am not going to take a stand on whether that is the correct interpretation of things.

So did she date, or hold hands or kiss this girlfriend while at BYU?  Or is everyone just jumping to that conclusion?

I can certainly see finding someone that I would like to get to know and date while at BYU, but not acting on that until after I graduated.  

Do you have more information or just a statement that she currently has a girlfriend?

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Instead, we get a middle-finger for such hopes/expectations.

I'm not understanding what you mean by this sentence.

[MrShorty]

@california boy I thought I read about her girlfriend in the links that @smac97 posted. Upon more careful reading, I think I misread. The girlfriend was perhaps the girlfriend of a TV viewer. Perhaps she did not have an official girlfriend during her time at BYU. Mia Culpa.

[california boy]

1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

@california boy I thought I read about her girlfriend in the links that @smac97 posted. Upon more careful reading, I think I misread. The girlfriend was perhaps the girlfriend of a TV viewer. Perhaps she did not have an official girlfriend during her time at BYU. Mia Culpa.

Thanks for the clarification.