BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think the lying to church leaders has a lot to do with the fact that the person can't trust that those leaders will work in their best interests to resolve the issue. They are more likely to work for the best interest of the Church.  It is a leadership roulette that most students would be unwilling to take.

Yeah.  It's too bad that there are no other schools at which students may matriculate ... Oh.  Wait.    Sorry.  My bad.  Carry on!  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

So don't know think that we aren't seeing membership councils for these students because the church is erring on the side of leniency.  I think we aren't seeing them because the church does not agree with your personal definition of apostasy.

My “personal definition”? Seriously? 
 

Here’s a normative (as opposed to a legalistic) definition of apostasy (it comes from mydictionary.com):

“An abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles.”

The act of apostasy by a Church member exists in principle independent of whether a membership council is ever convened or his membership is ever formally terminated. 
 

If somebody steals your car but is never arrested or convicted, does that mean the theft never occurred or that the perpetrator never did anything wrong? 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Raingirl said:

“Rules encourage deception”? The mental gymnastics some people will go through to justify lying.  And always blaming someone else for one’s choices. Then refusing to accept the consequences of said choices. Once again, if you don’t like the rules, or the terms of the contract, don’t enter in to the agreement.

I work in contracting. Both parties freely agree to sign the contact. Or not.  If either party violates the contract, there are consequences.  It boggles my mind that members of the church support lying and deception in order to save money. 

Rules that govern your innermost beliefs do encourage deception. There is a reason free nations don’t allow governments to compel your belief on these matters. I am not sure who I would be blaming. I don’t think the people at BYU deliberately engineered this situation in a sadistic attempt to make people who lose their faith suffer.

I don’t want to suggest that losing your faith is inevitable or not some kind of choice. Still, a contract that says I will not change my religious beliefs is ugly to me. There are things that you should have to give up if you lose your faith. Being a Catholic priest or a head of any religious congregation where it is a profession or a full-time seminary teacher in the church. That this doesn’t always end the employment and people skate along down those roads way too often makes me doubt the wisdom of expecting 18 year olds to make a four year commitment to a faith. I also just dislike the Honor Code. If the people are old enough to enter binding contracts aren’t they also old enough not to be nannied like this? I get the logic of wanting to be in a different kind of environment but it seems silly to me. Then again it is a different generation now who endured schools in their younger years built and operated more like prisons than when I was in school. Maybe an Honor Code environment is needed for another transitional step.

I don’t support lying and deception. I just understand why it is the default decision people go with in this situation. It is the logical decision unless you have a particularly strong sense of honor and devotion to truth. The irony is that that was probably cultivated as part of your faith which often makes it an early casualty if you lose that faith and your deception is about said faith. Also with that often goes the idea that being honest is ultimately its own reward so I am unsurprised people lie.

I am also unsurprised that once the charade is over they want to make a public statement. I think it is less narcissism and more the release of pressure. Finally I can stop pretending. While the symbolic gesture in this instance is ill-timed and kind of tacky to me I also don’t find myself sympathetic to those who see in it ingratitude. The contract is over. The idea that they owe more beyond it to avoid offending supporters of the other party to the contract is a bit much. It also stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened. They generally aren’t crowing over pulling one over on the Church which and feasting on tithing dollars for their heathen ambitions which seems to be how some characterize it, the idea that they set out to defraud the school is unlikely. They are relieved that they don’t have to navigate the relationship anymore at all. Of course those who do desire to see the church ‘burn’ do crow that way over these symbolic gestures but that is really not on the student.

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t want to suggest that losing your faith is inevitable or not some kind of choice. Still, a contract that says I will not change my religious beliefs is ugly to me. There are things that you should have to give up if you lose your faith. Being a Catholic priest or a head of any religious congregation where it is a profession or a full-time seminary teacher in the church. That this doesn’t always end the employment and people skate along down those roads way too often makes me doubt the wisdom of expecting 18 year olds to make a four year commitment to a faith. I also just dislike the Honor Code. If the people are old enough to enter binding contracts aren’t they also old enough not to be nannied like this?

We agree on something. Miracles happen. 😂 (It’s actually not the first time.)

Losing faith or hitting a rough patch in belief is not always foreseen or planned. I think it better to let people work through this without punishment. It would be helpful if they felt free to discuss it with leaders but I understand, under the circumstances, why they might not seek counsel. Sad situation all around.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yeah.  It's too bad that there are no other schools at which students may matriculate ... Oh.  Wait.    Sorry.  My bad.  Carry on!  

You know there is more to this that just changing schools.  I don't know many college students that are willing to easily willing to face loosing all the college credits and time and effort it took to get through those classes.  But I like your emoji's.  And I realize that was probably not a serious suggestion.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

You know there is more to this that just changing schools.  I don't know many college students that are willing to easily willing to face loosing all the college credits and time and effort it took to get through those classes.  But I like your emoji's.  And I realize that was probably not a serious suggestion.

Nope.  Nothing I ever write is serious.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Nope.  Nothing I ever write is serious.

Does that include this post? I hope so. Hate to think I’ve wasted all those rep points on you over the years. 

[Amulek]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

What if the student doesn't want to continue to retain the benefits which derive from membership, but instead wants to retain the benefits that the church grants to nonmembers?

Based on the way the admission and enrollment policies at BYU are structured, I get the distinct impression the church envisions BYU as being a place for faithful members and a recruitment aid for perspective members. Those who started out as members but then leave the church no longer fit into either of those categories. And, given the degree of subsidization by the church, I can understand why they might want to be especially selective in enforcing that mission.

 

[Amulek]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

I don't know many college students that are willing to easily willing to face loosing all the college credits and time and effort it took to get through those classes.

I get that. But I don't think there's anything BYU can do about the credit transfer situation - that's just how the education system is set up. Pretty much every university is going to require that you earn the majority of credits for your degree from their university.

The only solution I can think of would be for the church to set up another university - one which is completely unsubsidized and fully secular (e.g., no religious based honor code) which would then fully accept credits from BYU on a 1-for-1 basis. 

That doesn't seem very practical though.

 

[california boy]

19 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I get that. But I don't think there's anything BYU can do about the credit transfer situation - that's just how the education system is set up. Pretty much every university is going to require that you earn the majority of credits for your degree from their university.

The only solution I can think of would be for the church to set up another university - one which is completely unsubsidized and fully secular (e.g., no religious based honor code) which would then fully accept credits from BYU on a 1-for-1 basis. 

That doesn't seem very practical though.

 

Personally, I like the idea of letting the student come forward, explain their situation and allow them to finish their university degree paying non-member rates.  It is not a perfect solution, but probably the most fair and practical.

[MrShorty]

42 minutes ago, Amulek said:

But I don't think there's anything BYU can do about the credit transfer situation - that's just how the education system is set up. Pretty much every university is going to require that you earn the majority of credits for your degree from their university.

This just occurred to me. How about setting up a scholarship fund for "ex-Mormons/LGBT who left the BYUs/CES schools in order to respect the CES honor code". While I'm sure reasons for staying at the BYUs goes beyond financial, this could certainly offset the financial incentive to remain at BYU to finish a degree.

[Stormin' Mormon]

42 minutes ago, california boy said:

Personally, I like the idea of letting the student come forward, explain their situation and allow them to finish their university degree paying non-member rates.  It is not a perfect solution, but probably the most fair and practical.

While that may be better than the current policy, it does not remove the financial incentive to hide one's loss of faith.  Assuming such a student comes forward halfway through their college experience, they would then have to complete 4 semesters at the non-member rate.  Which means, that coming forward would cost the student an extra $12,000 (that is, the non-member rate is an extra $3k per semester, multiplied by four more semesters to complete the degree). 

College kids being as poor as they are, I wonder how many of them would have a 10-minute conversation that would cost them $12,000. 

Having said that, I don't have a better solution to the problem. 

[california boy]

1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

While that may be better than the current policy, it does not remove the financial incentive to hide one's loss of faith.  Assuming such a student comes forward halfway through their college experience, they would then have to complete 4 semesters at the non-member rate.  Which means, that coming forward would cost the student an extra $12,000 (that is, the non-member rate is an extra $3k per semester, multiplied by four more semesters to complete the degree). 

College kids being as poor as they are, I wonder how many of them would have a 10-minute conversation that would cost them $12,000. 

Having said that, I don't have a better solution to the problem. 

Maybe.  But pretending to be someone you are not also is a high price one has to pay.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Based on the way the admission and enrollment policies at BYU are structured, I get the distinct impression the church envisions BYU as being a place for faithful members and a recruitment aid for prospective members. Those who started out as members but then leave the church no longer fit into either of those categories. And, given the degree of subsidization by the church, I can understand why they might want to be especially selective in enforcing that mission.

 

If that is truly how the church views BYU, then I think it would be very helpful for them to be upfront about it.  Especially for the non members who decide to go there.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

While that may be better than the current policy, it does not remove the financial incentive to hide one's loss of faith.  Assuming such a student comes forward halfway through their college experience, they would then have to complete 4 semesters at the non-member rate.  Which means, that coming forward would cost the student an extra $12,000 (that is, the non-member rate is an extra $3k per semester, multiplied by four more semesters to complete the degree). 

College kids being as poor as they are, I wonder how many of them would have a 10-minute conversation that would cost them $12,000. 

Having said that, I don't have a better solution to the problem. 

At the very least it would remove the justification we sometimes hear about how it's not a student's fault that they have to lie about their changed beliefs and they are just a victim of the situation.

It takes you off of your high horse a bit when everyone knows that you are only lying about your beliefs to save money.  At that point you basically admit that you are scamming the university, which never looks that great (though there will always be people who fully support that kind of thing).

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My “personal definition”? Seriously? 
 

Here’s a normative (as opposed to a legalistic) definition of apostasy (it comes from mydictionary.com):

“An abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles.”

The act of apostasy by a Church member exists in principle independent of whether a membership council is ever convened or his membership is ever formally terminated. 
 

If somebody steals your car but is never arrested or convicted, does that mean the theft never occurred or that the perpetrator never did anything wrong? 

You're being a bit dramatic but yes, I'm referring to the personal definition of "apostate" that you are using which is different than the one the church uses.

Your definition may work with dictionary.com but doesn't seem relevant when it comes to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  We don't consider a person who has abandoned their beliefs in the Catholic church and joined ours to be an apostate, for example, even though their actions fit the online definition of the word perfectly.

Likewise, our church does not seem to consider someone who no longer believes in our doctrines to be an apostate either.  

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

5 hours ago, Amulek said:

Based on the way the admission and enrollment policies at BYU are structured, I get the distinct impression the church envisions BYU as being a place for faithful members and a recruitment aid for prospective members. Those who started out as members but then leave the church no longer fit into either of those categories. And, given the degree of subsidization by the church, I can understand why they might want to be especially selective in enforcing that mission.

If that is truly how the church views BYU, then I think it would be very helpful for them to be upfront about it.  Especially for the non members who decide to go there.

I don't think non-members (as in, never members) are oblivious to this aim.

 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I don't think non-members (as in, never members) are oblivious to this aim.

 

I think some would be surprised to find out that BYU only let them in because they are hoping to convert them.  

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think some would be surprised to find out that BYU only let them in because they are hoping to convert them.  

Especially Muslim parents who sent their kid because of the strict standards. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think some would be surprised to find out that BYU only let them in because they are hoping to convert them.  

I don't think that's the only reason.  Every "BYU" on the resume of an accomplished professional burnishes the reputation of the Church. An accomplished professional who is not a member of the Church does this just as well as an accomplished professional who is.  

[Rain]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This just occurred to me. How about setting up a scholarship fund for "ex-Mormons/LGBT who left the BYUs/CES schools in order to respect the CES honor code". While I'm sure reasons for staying at the BYUs goes beyond financial, this could certainly offset the financial incentive to remain at BYU to finish a degree.

I think this would have to be a scholarship outside of the school unless everyone who applied got it. As soon as you apply for it then the cat is out of the bag and if there is no guarantee you will get it then you are kind of stuck if not one of the lucky few.

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I don't think that's the only reason.  Every "BYU" on the resume of an accomplished professional burnishes the reputation of the Church. An accomplished professional who is not a member of the Church does this just as well as an accomplished professional who is.  

I don’t think it’s the only reason either. I’m not convinced it’s even the main reason. 

[MrShorty]

16 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think this would have to be a scholarship outside of the school unless everyone who applied got it. As soon as you apply for it then the cat is out of the bag and if there is no guarantee you will get it then you are kind of stuck if not one of the lucky few.

Agreed. It would have to be well funded so it could cover many/most/all of those we need to cover (somebody upthread suggested as many as 80%??? More likely 5 to 15% of CES post-secondary students??). 10% of 40k students is 4k scholarships, so yes, it will require an investment on the part of someone (whether the Church, or CES/BYU, or private donors). Do we feel strongly enough about helping students who don't respect the honor code out of the CES/BYU system to invest this money? Do we think a scholarship like this would help encourage these students to transfer elsewhere?

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

If that is truly how the church views BYU, then I think it would be very helpful for them to be upfront about it. 

https://aims.byu.edu
 

"The mission of Brigham Young University — founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life."

"BYU seeks to develop students of faith,...."

"A BYU education should be: Spiritually Strengthening....."

 

"Strategic Objectives (2020–2025)

Ensure alignment with the university mission.

...

Advance faith-based teaching and learning.

..."

[rongo]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

It would have to be well funded so it could cover many/most/all of those we need to cover (somebody upthread suggested as many as 80%??? More likely 5 to 15% of CES post-secondary students??). 10% of 40k students is 4k scholarships, so yes, it will require an investment on the part of someone (whether the Church, or CES/BYU, or private donors). 

Other than removing barriers to transfer, where the barriers are something BYU could willingly cooperate or assist with, I don't agree that BYU should endow scholarships to help students who leave the Church or stop believing to transfer to other schools. It's kind of a crazy suggestion, really --- especially in light of the new affirmative action scholarships that have been discussed over the last year. Scholarship funds for those who leave the Church or their faith to go somewhere else? While so many BYU students don't get any type of scholarships, or only very little?

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

Do we feel strongly enough about helping students who don't respect the honor code out of the CES/BYU system to invest this money? Do we think a scholarship like this would help encourage these students to transfer elsewhere?

I don't think it really would, actually. In the first place, any scholarship would be a fraction of the tuition and fees at any other school, so there is a financial incentive to "stand pat," even if a scholarship of up to a couple of thousand were offered to help them go somewhere else. In the second place, I think students like these who publicly "give the middle finger" to BYU and the Church **want** to remain embedded 5th columnists --- either to convert others to their cause, to agitate among the student body, or to embarrass the Church. For these students, they are exactly where they want to be, and they don't want to go anywhere else. 

I'm sure there are also a significant number who are grateful for what BYU/the Church offered them, and would rather "put her away privily" and spare BYU/the Church embarrassment and drama and just move on. I would be more empathetic towards students like this, but how would we separate the wheat from the chaff?