BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[OGHoosier]

5 hours ago, ttribe said:

I offered absolutely nothing to suggest that the words of social scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, or doctors should be considered some kind of gospel. But we do have experts for a reason. And these people are professionals who spend a great deal of time, energy, and resources studying these topics such that for Smac to engage in a hand-waving dismissal of their work as a layman who is more concerned with 'politics' is, at best, unbridled arrogance on his part.

Would it make a difference if he cited his sources for disagreeing with them? As I recall, he did. A dismissal with backup is not handwavey at all. No, given your own choice of italics, you are most offended by the fact that Smac doesn't have professional involvement with the discipline and yet dares to disagree with the invested authorities. If that is arrogance, than such arrogance is the right and responsibility of all free citizens. I will gladly tar myself with the same mark. 

Quote

Because the context of the discussion was about the diagnosis of a mental illness, not the evolution of labels and categories. You are expanding the context of the discussion now to the history of the use of labels. In this instance the label is to facilitate the communication and description of a condition in this back-and-forth. The etymology of said labels is less of an issue with respect to whether an entire class of people are considered 'mentally ill,' or not.

If you're going to diagnose someone and give them a label, then we had best understand the nature of the label we are giving them, no? Your position only makes sense if the specific mental illnesses, or even the concept of mental illness, are undisputed. They are not. 

 

[Calm]

21 hours ago, Danzo said:

have found that people often are not very good at self diagnosis.   

Not terribly impressed by most medical doctors for mental health illness though.  I don’t think GPs should be allowed to give out antidepressants or anxiety meds without a mental health professional diagnosis, for example.  My life is majorly messed up because GPs insisted I had depression when I was telling them I was happy, just exhausted and I was too desperate not to try what they offered me, always pills, never a suggestion of therapy or evaluation to be sure.  And of course given enough years of lack of quality sleep, real depression hit, so more powerful drugs that never did anything but make it worse.

Pretty much everyone with the same disorder I interacted with initially (online support group of over a thousand) had pretty much the same experience, misdiagnosis as depression in adults or hyperactivity if a child because lack of sleep wires kids.

We so need a better mental health care system.  (Canada wasn’t much better, in this case it was me who found the correct diagnosis because I paid attention to the primary symptom and googled it…later confirmed by specialists who told me I was more educated about it then they were).

Having said that, my daughter’s life is majorly messed up because a pediatric psychiatrist would only treat her anxiety and not the sleep disorder she had been diagnosed as well.

Can you tell I have a sorta like/hate relationship with doctors?

Edited May 12, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

don't believe people who dislike their bodies to to the point that they are willing to mutilate themselves have good mental health. 

At what point do you see cosmetic surgery being inappropriate?  I disliked my body and got mutilated because I had significant back pain and headaches.  Wish the doctor had been less cautious actually.  Removal of birthmarks on children okay in your view even if there is no physical need to remove them and it is only emotional pain they are suffering?

[ttribe]

41 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Would it make a difference if he cited his sources for disagreeing with them? As I recall, he did. A dismissal with backup is not handwavey at all. No, given your own choice of italics, you are most offended by the fact that Smac doesn't have professional involvement with the discipline and yet dares to disagree with the invested authorities. If that is arrogance, than such arrogance is the right and responsibility of all free citizens. I will gladly tar myself with the same mark.

I remain unconvinced Smac did anything more than a Google search for DSM controversies and provided a link to Wikiepedia, an article from "Business Insider" and one scholarly journal article. There is no specific mention of anything on point to the discussion of gender identity. And, no, I do not agree that any of the said citations justifies a blanket dismissal of a diagnostic tool as unscientific and non-empirical. As so many defenders on this board like to throw at critics, there is the baby and there is the bathwater.

Quote

If you're going to diagnose someone and give them a label, then we had best understand the nature of the label we are giving them, no? Your position only makes sense if the specific mental illnesses, or even the concept of mental illness, are undisputed. They are not. 

All this talk of labels (not to mention the DSM) is nothing but a red herring. I asked a simple question - Do you believe all transsexual and non-binary people are mentally ill? That's a pretty straightforward 'yes' or 'no.' Now, here we are, pages later talking about the origins of labels. If you say we can't agree on what transsexual or non-binary mean (which is another red herring, IMO), I'll simply adjust my questions to be - Do you believe all people who self-identify as transsexual and non-binary are, by definition, mentally ill?

Out of curiosity, since when does Smac need a champion on this board?

[Teancum]

On 5/10/2022 at 5:56 PM, smac97 said:

I'm fairly skeptical regarding the DSM, as I think it is dressed up as objective and empirical and scientific

Never mind

Edited May 12, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

On 5/10/2022 at 6:41 PM, JLHPROF said:

Is there such a thing as a spiritual illness?

No

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No

I disagree.

[OGHoosier]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

At what point do you see cosmetic surgery being inappropriate?  I disliked my body and got mutilated because I had significant back pain and headaches.  Wish the doctor had been less cautious actually.  Removal of birthmarks on children okay in your view even if there is no physical need to remove them and it is only emotional pain they are suffering?

I know you didn't ask me, but for my two cents, I think there's several factors that have to be considered when weighing the appropriateness of surgical intervention. 

1. Does the surgical intervention correct parts of the body which are dysfunctional? 

2. Does the surgical intervention remove capacities?

3. To what degree is the surgical intervention reversible? 

"Dysfunctional" in the above schema does a lot of work. I don't think it can really be defined too well without a sort of Aristotelian concept of the body's telos, but basically, does the surgery correct parts of the body which are not fulfilling their biological function? Furthermore, I think that when surgical interventions fundamentally remove capacities that would otherwise be present in healthy adults, that adds a layer of gravity to it. Cosmetic surgeries in general answer "no" to all of the above, so I think they're for the most part okay, though not to be done lightly. 

This is an issue we're going to have to deal with however. Transhumanists already assume a stance where the body is a convenience at best, the inconveniences of which are to be papered over by the application of technology. Presumably, improving technology will increasingly enable humans to augment themselves through implants or gene editing. What it means to be "human" is going to come into starker question. To be honest, if we don't want the creation of under-/over-classes of the technologically-endowed, as well as other social earthquakes which we can't readily predict, we're going to need to get serious about limiting the degree to which we humans can modify our biology. A revolting confabulation of Huxley's Brave New World and Lewis' That Hideous Strength is slouching towards Bethlehem as we type. Deference to medical transitioning appears as a herald of the times.

I recommend reading James Poulos. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by OGHoosier

[Tacenda]

IMO, the newborn that is born with neither sex shows how possible it is for someone to feel they aren't in the right body. https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/what-does-intersex-look-like#causes

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I disagree.

No surprise.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Teancum said:

No surprise.

How does one diagnose a spiritual illness? It’s like attributing night terrors to demonic possession. It puts a label on something but is useless as a means of actually helping the person. 

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

How does one diagnose a spiritual illness? It’s like attributing night terrors to demonic possession. It puts a label on something but is useless as a means of actually helping the person. 

Diagnosing it is generally a personal issue, although the spirit of discernment is a gift of the spirit many are given.

• Other spirits, not particularly invited or desired, gain an easy access to those who are careless, heedless, and but too indifferent to the statutes, ordinances, and duties of God’s kingdom; who neglect their prayers, their assembling together, and doing as they would be done unto; and from these spirits arise contention, strife, evil thinking, evil speaking, evil surmising, detraction, revenge, law-suits, and a host of such perplexing annoyances, sufficient to disturb a nation; but the man who is obedient to his God in all things, who knows no will of his own, only to do the will of his Father in the heavens, is free from these spirits; the Devil has no power over him, for he resists him, and evil spirits are compelled to flee at his rebuke.
  Some may ask, “How shall I know when I am operated upon by a false spirit?”  There are many keys by which the door of knowledge is unlocked to the Saints in relation to spirits, as well as other things pertaining to the kingdom; but one may suffice at the present time, for we have not designed this brief notice to cover all or any considerable portion of the ground which the subject includes.
  The spirit of heaven is a spirit of peace, joy, comfort, consolation, and knowledge to its possessor, and all Saints who have enjoyed this spirit, (and all Saints have more or less) may know when this peaceful spirit dwelling within them is disturbed, that something is wrong, that some false spirit is lurking within or about them, striving to enter; and if they will resist the first impulse of their disturbed feelings and command Satan in the name of Jesus to depart, peace will instantly be restored to their souls. (That's as accurate a description of "dysphoria" as I've read.)
  It is not the wrong doings of others that destroy that peace within ourselves which the world can neither give nor take away; it is our own wrongs which cause that peaceful spirit to leave us; and would to God that His truth were indelibly imprinted on the heart and recollection of every Saint.  It is your own wrongs or evil spirits that destroy your peace, and not the wrongs of your friend or neighbor. Know ye, all ye Saints, if the peace of heaven and a foretaste of the blessings of the celestial world are not continually with you, there is something wrong within; some foul spirit has got possession of yourself, and the quicker you dispossess it, the better.
  Elder Willard Richards Millennial Star, Volume 14, pp. 277-280
   
• I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
   
• I Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Diagnosing spiritual illness might present issues, but that doesn't mean they don't exist every bit as much as mental illness and physical illness.
I absolutely believe that much of society's ills today come from spiritual illness and false and delusive spirits convincing them of things that God did not intend.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by JLHPROF

[ttribe]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Diagnosing it is generally a personal issue, although the spirit of discernment is a gift of the spirit many are given.

• Other spirits, not particularly invited or desired, gain an easy access to those who are careless, heedless, and but too indifferent to the statutes, ordinances, and duties of God’s kingdom; who neglect their prayers, their assembling together, and doing as they would be done unto; and from these spirits arise contention, strife, evil thinking, evil speaking, evil surmising, detraction, revenge, law-suits, and a host of such perplexing annoyances, sufficient to disturb a nation; but the man who is obedient to his God in all things, who knows no will of his own, only to do the will of his Father in the heavens, is free from these spirits; the Devil has no power over him, for he resists him, and evil spirits are compelled to flee at his rebuke.
  Some may ask, “How shall I know when I am operated upon by a false spirit?”  There are many keys by which the door of knowledge is unlocked to the Saints in relation to spirits, as well as other things pertaining to the kingdom; but one may suffice at the present time, for we have not designed this brief notice to cover all or any considerable portion of the ground which the subject includes.
  The spirit of heaven is a spirit of peace, joy, comfort, consolation, and knowledge to its possessor, and all Saints who have enjoyed this spirit, (and all Saints have more or less) may know when this peaceful spirit dwelling within them is disturbed, that something is wrong, that some false spirit is lurking within or about them, striving to enter; and if they will resist the first impulse of their disturbed feelings and command Satan in the name of Jesus to depart, peace will instantly be restored to their souls.
  It is not the wrong doings of others that destroy that peace within ourselves which the world can neither give nor take away; it is our own wrongs which cause that peaceful spirit to leave us; and would to God that His truth were indelibly imprinted on the heart and recollection of every Saint.  It is your own wrongs or evil spirits that destroy your peace, and not the wrongs of your friend or neighbor. Know ye, all ye Saints, if the peace of heaven and a foretaste of the blessings of the celestial world are not continually with you, there is something wrong within; some foul spirit has got possession of yourself, and the quicker you dispossess it, the better.
  Elder Willard Richards Millennial Star, Volume 14, pp. 277-280
   
• I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
   
• I Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Diagnosing spiritual illness might present issues, but that doesn't mean they don't exist every bit as much as mental illness and physical illness.
I absolutely believe that much of society's ills today come from spiritual illness and false and delusive spirits convincing them of things that God did not intend.

 

Sorry, but that sounds rather Dark Ages to me.

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Sorry, but that sounds rather Dark Ages to me.

So you don't believe in spirits?  Good or evil?

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

... Can you tell I have a sorta like/hate relationship with doctors?

Don't we all?  

  

[jkwilliams]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Diagnosing it is generally a personal issue, although the spirit of discernment is a gift of the spirit many are given.

• Other spirits, not particularly invited or desired, gain an easy access to those who are careless, heedless, and but too indifferent to the statutes, ordinances, and duties of God’s kingdom; who neglect their prayers, their assembling together, and doing as they would be done unto; and from these spirits arise contention, strife, evil thinking, evil speaking, evil surmising, detraction, revenge, law-suits, and a host of such perplexing annoyances, sufficient to disturb a nation; but the man who is obedient to his God in all things, who knows no will of his own, only to do the will of his Father in the heavens, is free from these spirits; the Devil has no power over him, for he resists him, and evil spirits are compelled to flee at his rebuke.
  Some may ask, “How shall I know when I am operated upon by a false spirit?”  There are many keys by which the door of knowledge is unlocked to the Saints in relation to spirits, as well as other things pertaining to the kingdom; but one may suffice at the present time, for we have not designed this brief notice to cover all or any considerable portion of the ground which the subject includes.
  The spirit of heaven is a spirit of peace, joy, comfort, consolation, and knowledge to its possessor, and all Saints who have enjoyed this spirit, (and all Saints have more or less) may know when this peaceful spirit dwelling within them is disturbed, that something is wrong, that some false spirit is lurking within or about them, striving to enter; and if they will resist the first impulse of their disturbed feelings and command Satan in the name of Jesus to depart, peace will instantly be restored to their souls. (That's as accurate a description of "dysphoria" as I've read.)
  It is not the wrong doings of others that destroy that peace within ourselves which the world can neither give nor take away; it is our own wrongs which cause that peaceful spirit to leave us; and would to God that His truth were indelibly imprinted on the heart and recollection of every Saint.  It is your own wrongs or evil spirits that destroy your peace, and not the wrongs of your friend or neighbor. Know ye, all ye Saints, if the peace of heaven and a foretaste of the blessings of the celestial world are not continually with you, there is something wrong within; some foul spirit has got possession of yourself, and the quicker you dispossess it, the better.
  Elder Willard Richards Millennial Star, Volume 14, pp. 277-280
   
• I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
   
• I Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Diagnosing spiritual illness might present issues, but that doesn't mean they don't exist every bit as much as mental illness and physical illness.
I absolutely believe that much of society's ills today come from spiritual illness and false and delusive spirits convincing them of things that God did not intend.

 

I think this ventures into some very dangerous territory. Leaving aside whether there are such spirits, how would one determine that it is a spiritual illness, and how would one determine “treatment”?

I have to admit I'm thinking of a family in California I read about this morning. Their 3-year-old daughter was having night terrors. They interpreted this as some kind of influence of evil spirits, so they took her to their church for an exorcism. They killed her. I know you’re not advocating such things, but where does one draw the line? To me, “spiritual illness” is a label of almost no practical use. 

[ttribe]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you don't believe in spirits?  Good or evil?

Spirits? No, I do not. The concepts of 'good' and 'evil' as constructs to measure good and bad things that happen? Of course. 'Good' and 'evil' as some competing external forces which influence people to behave in certain ways? No, I do not.

[Danzo]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

At what point do you see cosmetic surgery being inappropriate?  I disliked my body and got mutilated because I had significant back pain and headaches.  Wish the doctor had been less cautious actually.  Removal of birthmarks on children okay in your view even if there is no physical need to remove them and it is only emotional pain they are suffering?

They amputated part of your body?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I think this ventures into some very dangerous territory. Leaving aside whether there are such spirits, how would one determine that it is a spiritual illness, and how would one determine “treatment”?

I have to admit I'm thinking of a family in California I read about this morning. Their 3-year-old daughter was having night terrors. They interpreted this as some kind of influence of evil spirits, so they took her to their church for an exorcism. They killed her. I know you’re not advocating such things, but where does one draw the line? To me, “spiritual illness” is a label of almost no practical use. 

I don't see that as any more radical than pumping a 12 year old full of hormones to change the progression of puberty and preparing them to have body altering surgery as soon as legally possible.  Because they feel discomfort with their biology.

Labelling any approaches as boogeymen don't work spiritually any more than they do medically.  And there are always extreme approaches to everything.
 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Spirits? No, I do not. The concepts of 'good' and 'evil' as constructs to measure good and bad things that happen? Of course. 'Good' and 'evil' as some competing external forces which influence people to behave in certain ways? No, I do not.

Well you can hardly be surprised that religious people disagree then.
And what we accept as reality will always influence our approach to situations.  I happen to be very convinced that there are many spirits, good and evil, at work on a daily basis in our lives.
And what is described as "dysphoria" when there is no medically identifiable mental cause (neurobiology etc) is as likely to be the influence of a false or delusive spirit as anything else.

[jkwilliams]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't see that as any more radical than pumping a 12 year old full of hormones to change the progression of puberty and preparing them to have body altering surgery as soon as legally possible.  Because they feel discomfort with their biology.

Labelling any approaches as boogeymen don't work spiritually any more than they do medically.  And there are always extreme approaches to everything.
 

I have no problem labeling something as nebulous and subjective as “spiritual illness” bonkers. 

[ttribe]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well you can hardly be surprised that religious people disagree then.
And what we accept as reality will always influence our approach to situations.  I happen to be very convinced that there are many spirits, good and evil, at work on a daily basis in our lives.
And what is described as "dysphoria" when there is no medically identifiable mental cause (neurobiology etc) is as likely to be the influence of a false or delusive spirit as anything else.

It seems your judgment rubric is something along the lines of - "Anything 'bad' or not in line with my theology, and for which there is no obvious naturalistic explanation, must be an evil spirit." Am I close?

Dark Ages, indeed.

Will one of these spirits turn me into a newt?

Edited May 12, 2022 by ttribe

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It seems your judgment rubric is something along the lines of - "Anything 'bad' or not in line with my theology, and for which there is no obvious naturalistic explanation, must be an evil spirit." Am I close?

Dark Ages, indeed.

Will one of these spirits turn me into a newt?

No, but they may make you cynical or negative about things of God...oh wait 

Edited May 12, 2022 by JLHPROF

[ttribe]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

No, but they may make you cynical or negative about things of God...oh wait 

Yeah...okay. 

Pretty sure Occam's Razor applies in here somewhere. 

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I have no problem labeling something as nebulous and subjective as “spiritual illness” bonkers. 

Go right ahead.  I have no doubt that there are evil spirits, Christ certainly said there were.  That's not just LDS, but basic Christianity.

"The very day we entered that house it was filled with evil spirits, who sought to destroy us. We felt their power day after day. They did not particularly injure us at that time, but we knew they were with us. The incident that I am going to refer to now occurred after Brother Kimball had returned to Manchester.  Brother George A. Smith and myself were left there. We sat up one night till about 11 o'clock, talking about the Gospel of Christ, and then went to bed. The room in which we slept was small; there was about three and a half feet between our cots. Those spirits were gathered together in that room and sought to destroy us. They fell upon us with the determination to take our lives.
The distress, the suffering and the horror that rested upon me I never experienced neither before nor since. While in this condition a spirit said to me, "Pray to the Lord." Well, a man in that kind of warfare, when he is choking almost to death, is in a peculiar position to pray. Nevertheless I went to praying with all the power I had. I knew we would die unless God opened some door for our deliverance, because we were being choked to death, and I prayed the Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, to preserve our lives.
While I was praying, the door opened and three messengers entered, and the room was filled with light equal to the blazing light of the sun at mid-day. Those messengers were all dressed in the robes of immortal beings. Who they were I know not. They laid hands upon me and my companion, and rebuked those evil powers, and we were saved. From that hour to this day, not only our lives were saved, but those powers were rebuked by the angels of God so that no Elder since has been tormented with them in London."
Collected Discourses, Vol.5, Wilford Woodruff, October 5, 1896

"I had been sleeping on the back of the bed. I immediately arose, slipped off at the foot of the bed, and passed around to where he [Elder Russell] was. Elder Hyde threw his feet out, and sat up in the bed, and we laid hands on him, I being mouth, and prayed that the Lord would have mercy on him, and rebuke the devil.  While thus engaged, I was struck with great force by some invisible power, and fell senseless on the floor. The first thing I recollected was being supported by Elders Hyde and Richards who were praying for me, Elder Richards having followed Russell up to my room. Elders Hyde and Richards then assisted me to get on the bed, but my agony was so great I could not endure it, and I arose, bowed my knees and prayed.
"I then arose and sat up on the bed, when a vision was opened to our minds, and we could distinctly see the evil spirits, who foamed and gnashed their teeth at us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half (by Willard's watch). We were not looking towards the window, but towards the wall. Space appeared before us, and we saw the devils coming in legions, with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us. They came towards us like armies rushing to battle. They appeared to be men of full stature, possessing every form and feature of men in the flesh, who were angry and desperate; and I shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain.
I perspired exceedingly, my clothes becoming as wet as if I had been taken out of the river. I felt excessive pain, and was in the greatest distress for some time. I cannot even look back on the scene without feelings of horror; yet by it I learned the power of the adversary, his enmity against the servants of God, and got some understanding of the invisible world. We distinctly heard these spirits talk and express their wrath and hellish designs against us. However, the Lord delivered us from them, and blessed us exceedingly that day."
Life of Heber C. Kimball," pp. 131-132.