BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

You sound like a great dad:) 

Ditto!

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I've got a teen daughter who has come out to her friends as bisexual.  Here's how I approached the issue:

First, with regards to their future in the Church: I took a step back and asked myself, what do I REALLY want for my kids?  At its most basic core, I want my kids to grow and not be a-holes.  So, we've talked about that in various family home evenings.  We've pointed out the various ways that Church teachings and culture can provide us with the tools to not be a-holes.  And if their faith path leads them away from the Church someday, to not jettison any of those tools that can still be used outside of a church setting (giving to charity, serving in one's community, etc). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Second, with regards to their identity: we've talked about the brain-science.  I'm not an expert, but I've read that a person's brain is not fully developed until their early to mid twenties.  From experience, this seems true to me.  I was a very different person at 25 than I was at 15.  So we've talked about that in various family home evenings, as well.  I've asked my kids to not make any permanent conclusions about their sexuality or gender identity until they are in their 20's.  But, at the same time, we will be supportive and understanding of any desires to explore those issues while in their teen years.  As long as they don't come to permanent conclusions or make decisions with permanent consequences until they've given themselves sufficient room to grow into themselves.  And if, when they are grown, they make such a conclusion about their identity, we will be fully supportive of them. 

It will probably strike many as unwise or unhealthy, but I'm trying to find a middle way that is neither too restrictive nor too permissive, that is reflective of both my love of the gospel and my love for my daughter.  I've never been the parent of gay LDS child before, so I don't have a lot of past experience to draw from.  I'm doing the best I can with love, intuition, and the spirit guiding me.

 

I think that, at its most basic core, the gospel is about bringing the children of God to Christ through the covenant path, which requires familiarity with the gift of the Holy Ghost, or how God works with us. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/47nelson?lang=eng

President Nelson’s five suggested actions in summary:

1.      Get on the covenant path and stay there.

2.      Discover the joy of daily repentance.

3.      Learn about God and how He works.

4.      Seek and expect miracles.

5.      End conflict in your personal life.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/prophet-summary-april-2022-general-conference?lang=eng&cid=email-CCD_EM_IN_0422_CCD-IN-0422-April2022ConferenceRecap-Eng_CTA&mkt_tok=NTc4LVRUWC04NzQAAAGDn3jTBhEtMMNcWQG4CICldIxj_wXhsx8v-B4w8S0qA0Om6b-PRn8SWhTaIvwaU3OK5QojaLgzw4Cd6BL97Fqpiv1MoTbp-2DK7qHOlFbVgUdYgw

This is the best middle way I’ve seen, since the Holy Ghost serves as a practical guide for our personal, particular circumstances.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So an imperfect person can never be a disciple? Interesting  

 

A disciple is by definition a follower.  If you choose to reject it you're not following.

Perfection has nothing to do with it.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A disciple is by definition a follower.  If you choose to reject it you're not following.

Perfection has nothing to do with it.

Following in some areas and not others…does that make a follower?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Following in some areas and not others…does that make a follower?

Smorgasbord disciples.  I suppose we all are in our obedience.

But to openly oppose or defy?

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yeah, he's not doing his argument any favors by using such overblown rhetoric.

Thanks,

-Smac

Of course I can’t win. I am fighting rhetoric and wordplay..

Overblown Rhetoricians: ”BYU professors are radicalizing our children!” (Parent’s heads fill with images of terrorists and violent attacks)

Nehor: ”They are not becoming terrorists and attacking people.”

Overblown Rhetorician Supporters: “You can’t assume they meant to convey exactly what everyone is thinking when they said it. Stop using overblown rhetoric.”

 

[mbh26]

On 4/27/2022 at 5:20 PM, Duncan said:

Something that that happens far more often than something like this is people who graduate from BYU and then instantly go inactive. The same thing happens with missionaries, people game the system and then bail on it and that happens far more often than this kind of thing.

Missionaries are often paying their own way and they're gaining little if any economic advantage for their service, not to mention the oppurtunity cost of two of the best years of their lives.  

Lastly there's a big difference in quietly going inactive in a faith crisis and publicly flaunting your grievance with the honor code.  The mission rules are far more spartan and restrictive than the Honor Code could ever be.  

[phaedrus ut]

When I saw the pictures I thought there is probably a gay student watching who needed to see another gay Mormon and realize they matter. Too many of these kids struggle with depression and self harm. I’m proud of seeing so many Gen Z Mormons standing up for them.

I’m happy to celebrate anyone trying to make the world a better place.

phaedrus 

[The Nehor]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:45 PM, CV75 said:

I think that, at its most basic core, the gospel is about bringing the children of God to Christ through the covenant path, which requires familiarity with the gift of the Holy Ghost, or how God works with us. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/47nelson?lang=eng

President Nelson’s five suggested actions in summary:

1.      Get on the covenant path and stay there.

2.      Discover the joy of daily repentance.

3.      Learn about God and how He works.

4.      Seek and expect miracles.

5.      End conflict in your personal life.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/prophet-summary-april-2022-general-conference?lang=eng&cid=email-CCD_EM_IN_0422_CCD-IN-0422-April2022ConferenceRecap-Eng_CTA&mkt_tok=NTc4LVRUWC04NzQAAAGDn3jTBhEtMMNcWQG4CICldIxj_wXhsx8v-B4w8S0qA0Om6b-PRn8SWhTaIvwaU3OK5QojaLgzw4Cd6BL97Fqpiv1MoTbp-2DK7qHOlFbVgUdYgw

This is the best middle way I’ve seen, since the Holy Ghost serves as a practical guide for our personal, particular circumstances.

1. Does being in the vicinity count?

2. I’ll try.

3. When He wants to, I got that.

4. *glances at watch* *taps foot* *breaks out fidget spinner*

5. Can’t. My worst enemy is my own mind and the best way to end that would be to destroy it but now they tell me that is sin too.

[Tacenda]

Par for the course:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50401753/sen-mike-lee-wants-warnings-on-lgbtq-content-in-childrens-tv-programs

[HappyJackWagon]

On 5/6/2022 at 2:14 PM, Calm said:

Latter-day Saint family?

yes-

I've also learned that they have her going to an LDS therapist who refuses to call her by her preferred pronouns or even her nickname she goes by publicly, opting instead for her formal given name and pronouns.

Are there any therapists in this group who could comment about whether or not this is normal behavior for a therapist. It seems adversarial and counterproductive when trying to get a youth to open up in therapy.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

yes-

I've also learned that they have her going to an LDS therapist who refuses to call her by her preferred pronouns or even her nickname she goes by publicly, opting instead for her formal given name and pronouns.

Are there any therapists in this group who could comment about whether or not this is normal behavior for a therapist. It seems adversarial and counterproductive when trying to get a youth to open up in therapy.

Sure seems to be a fair amount of politicization of medical/therapeutic practices going on these days.  By way of example:

Quote

Medical textbook strips gender dysphoria definition after being cited by Florida

Flordia's surgeon general slammed the move as 'political activism disguised as scientific advancement'

The world's bestselling medical textbook removed the definition of gender dysphoria from its website after the Florida Department of Health cited it in recent guidance advising against gender transitions for children and adolescents, according to an email obtained by Fox News Digital.

The email from Melissa Adams, who is Merck Manuals' director of marketing and brand awareness, also asked the Florida Department of Health to adjust their guidance based on the update in the manual, which was first published in 1899 and remains the oldest continuously published medical textbook in English.

"Gender dysphoria is characterized by a strong, persistent cross-gender identification associated with anxiety, depression, irritability, and often a wish to live as a gender different from the one associated with the sex assigned at birth," according to the Merck Manual's prior definition, which has since been removed.

 

"We were in the process of updating our online chapter on that subject so I wanted to make sure you had the latest information," wrote Adams, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment.

"Some of the verbiage you reference in quotes has now been omitted as a result of the update which went live on our site at the end of April," Adams added.

The email went on to request that Florida remove its language following their update. Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo responded by tweeting a screenshot of Adams' email and alleging that Merck's move was "political activism disguised as medical advancement."

"Medicine cannot be a weapon used to divide communities, and Florida’s guidance will not change due to political pressure," Ladapo added.

Merck removed the definition from its website after Ladapo released a fact sheet on April 20 in response to guidelines from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) in March.

According to the new guidance from HHS, "gender-affirming care" includes social affirmation at any age, puberty blockers during puberty and hormone therapy starting during early adolescence. Irreversible surgery is "typically used in adulthood or case-by-case basis in adolescence."

Citing a "lack of conclusive evidence, and the potential for long-term, irreversible effects," the Florida Department of Health advised against social transition, puberty blockers, hormones and surgery as treatment options for children and adolescents.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

yes-

I've also learned that they have her going to an LDS therapist who refuses to call her by her preferred pronouns or even her nickname she goes by publicly, opting instead for her formal given name and pronouns.

Are there any therapists in this group who could comment about whether or not this is normal behavior for a therapist. It seems adversarial and counterproductive when trying to get a youth to open up in therapy.

Found this (https://saigecounseling.org/pronouns/):

Quote

Both the American Counseling Association (ACA; 2010) and the American Psychological Association (APA; 2015) require the affirmative use of pronouns as a part of competent clinical practice with transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming clients. The correct use of someone’s pronouns is a basic competency rather than best practice; failure to do so is disrespectful, discriminatory, and enabling of systemic oppression.

 

[ttribe]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Sure seems to be a fair amount of politicization of medical/therapeutic practices going on these days.  By way of example:

Thanks,

-Smac

Unless you're suggesting that all individuals who identify as trans or non-binary are mentally ill, there is no politicization happening here.

Edited May 10, 2022 by ttribe

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Par for the course:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50401753/sen-mike-lee-wants-warnings-on-lgbtq-content-in-childrens-tv-programs

Really?  Let's pretend LGBT people don't exist in the real world?  If we can keep our children in a bubble long enough, then what happens when they enter the real world and find out that there are LGBT people in their families, at their schools, at work, in the neighood, at their church.  

What the heck is he trying to do?  Let's see if Utah rallies around this idea.  Maybe it is time to consider putting warning labels when someone is considering traveling to the state of Utah.

[Amulek]

53 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've also learned that they have her going to an LDS therapist who refuses to call her by her preferred pronouns or even her nickname she goes by publicly, opting instead for her formal given name and pronouns.

Are there any therapists in this group who could comment about whether or not this is normal behavior for a therapist. It seems adversarial and counterproductive when trying to get a youth to open up in therapy.

Not a therapist here (obviously), so I'm open to correction, but it seems like it could very much depend on the situation. You said before that she was outed to her parents as being bi-sexual, but that doesn't mean she's non-binary. Perhaps she is simply confused about her gender identity because of her sexual orientation. If a therapist recognizes that she authentically identifies as a female but merely thinks she ought to be non-binary because she's attracted to both men and women, then I don't see the harm in having the therapist use terms which align with her gender. But, again, I could be wrong on that.

I agree with you though that, depending on how it is handled, such behavior may very well be seen as adversarial. I think there would be tactful ways of navigating those situations. And how often in a one-on-one conversation do you really have to use someone's name anyway? Last I checked, "you" is still considered both singular and plural, so that ought to handle most of the heavy lifting as far as questions / discussion go.

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Unless you're suggesting that all individuals who identify as trans or non-binary are mentally ill, there is no politicization happening here.

Actually Trans people are classified as mentally ill.  It has to be that way otherwise there could be no insurance reimbursement for treatment.

 

[smac97]

Just now, Danzo said:

Actually Trans people are classified as mentally ill.  It has to be that way otherwise there could be no insurance reimbursement for treatment.

Yep.  This consideration is also in play relative to Gender Dysphoria:

Quote

Some researchers and transgender people support declassification of the condition because they say the diagnosis pathologizes gender variance and reinforces the binary model of gender.^[14] Without the classification of gender dysphoria as a medical disorder, HRT and gender affirming surgery may be viewed as cosmetic treatments by health insurance, as opposed to medically necessary treatment, and may not be covered.^[15]

So a condition is a classified as medical/psychological, or not, based on how its treatments will be covered by health insurance.  

Seems like what are supposed to be clinical diagnostic concepts are being modified or erased based on feelings and finances.  Based on what is trendy and politically opportune or inopportune.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MrShorty]

19 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Actually Trans people are classified as mentally ill.  It has to be that way otherwise there could be no insurance reimbursement for treatment.

Is the "pathology" then merely a convenience for insurance claims rather than something based on evidence? I have long felt that a big part of the discussion around LGBT+ issues isthis question of what is pathological and what is normal human variability. When insurance companies say that they will only pay for treatments of pathologies, it introduces a strong, economic incentive (rather than views based on evidence) for things to be labeled "pathology" that may or may not be pathological.

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

yes-

I've also learned that they have her going to an LDS therapist who refuses to call her by her preferred pronouns or even her nickname she goes by publicly, opting instead for her formal given name and pronouns.

Are there any therapists in this group who could comment about whether or not this is normal behavior for a therapist. It seems adversarial and counterproductive when trying to get a youth to open up in therapy.

The therapist sounds like a jerk. They won’t even call her by her nickname? I don’t understand that attitude in anyone. I’ve encountered people like that before and it’s always baffled me. If someone says they prefer to be called a certain way, whether it’s a name or pronouns, it seems just plain disrespectful not to. What does one seek to accomplish by doing that? 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Really?  Let's pretend LGBT people don't exist in the real world?  If we can keep our children in a bubble long enough, then what happens when they enter the real world and find out that there are LGBT people in their families, at their schools, at work, in the neighood, at their church.  

What the heck is he trying to do?  Let's see if Utah rallies around this idea.  Maybe it is time to consider putting warning labels when someone is considering traveling to the state of Utah.

I wonder if Utah's governor who is active believing LDS will say something, he's a good man. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/03/23/utah-cox-transgender-athlete-veto/

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

The therapist sounds like a jerk. They won’t even call her by her nickname? I don’t understand that attitude in anyone. I’ve encountered people like that before and it’s always baffled me. If someone says they prefer to be called a certain way, whether it’s a name or pronouns, it seems just plain disrespectful not to. What does one seek to accomplish by doing that? 

Totally agree.

I think some people do it and wear the refusal like a badge of courage when really the badge should just read D-bag   

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Actually Trans people are classified as mentally ill.  It has to be that way otherwise there could be no insurance reimbursement for treatment.

 

I don't do this often, but CFR, please. My research is turning up none of that:

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/health-care

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleefowlkes/2019/05/30/who-being-transgender-no-longer-considered-a-mental-illness/?sh=34b808741c3b

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2021/unpacking-colorados-new-guidance-transgender-health

https://www.healthpartners.com/blog/mental-health-in-the-transgender-community/

 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  This consideration is also in play relative to Gender Dysphoria:

So a condition is a classified as medical/psychological, or not, based on how its treatments will be covered by health insurance.  

Seems like what are supposed to be clinical diagnostic concepts are being modified or erased based on feelings and finances.  Based on what is trendy and politically opportune or inopportune.

Thanks,

-Smac

Does that imply you would advocate for homosexuality to be once again classified as a mental illness, as well?

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I don't do this often, but CFR, please. My research is turning up none of that:

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/health-care

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleefowlkes/2019/05/30/who-being-transgender-no-longer-considered-a-mental-illness/?sh=34b808741c3b

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2021/unpacking-colorados-new-guidance-transgender-health

https://www.healthpartners.com/blog/mental-health-in-the-transgender-community/

 

Does that imply you would advocate for homosexuality to be once again classified as a mental illness, as well?

Gender dysphoria: Clinically significant distress caused when a person's assigned birth gender is not the same as the one with which they identify.

It’s not the identification that is the “disorder,” but the distress caused by it. In short, someone who isn’t distressed by it doesn’t have a disorder

Same goes for homosexuality: no distress, no disorder. It’s disgusting that someone would so cavalierly label people as mentally ill because he or she doesn’t agree with their choices. 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Quote

Seems like what are supposed to be clinical diagnostic concepts are being modified or erased based on feelings and finances.  Based on what is trendy and politically opportune or inopportune.

Does that imply you would advocate for homosexuality to be once again classified as a mental illness, as well?

No.

I'm fairly skeptical regarding the DSM, as I think it is dressed up as objective and empirical and scientific.  I'm not sure it is.  Plenty of discussions about flaws in the DSM (e.g., here and here).  And here:

Quote

While the successive framers of the DSM have attempted to base it on scientific evidence, political and economic factors have also shaped the conceptualization of mental illness. 

I'm also skeptical of discrete labels and categorizations and "identities," such as "homosexual."  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Quote

 

I have a PhD in history, so my approach is certainly shaped by that. I don't have children of my own, but I have long worked with young men and young missionaries and have taught them the following facts that are fully supported by historical and anthropological research:

• the concept of fixed, gendered sexual identities (both hetero- and homo-) is a late 19th-century social construct that has no historical precedence and, despite 150 years of Western colonisation of the imagination, these still haven't become natural categories across all cultures
• same-sex sexual behaviour has been ubiquitous since the beginning of recorded history (along with opposite-sex and other behaviours too numerous to list), though it has been framed in a dizzying number of ways across both time and space, with some cultures (for example, many Melanesian ones) having once required it as part of normal human development
• it is perfectly normal to experience various kinds of attractions to both males and females
• it is also perfectly normal not to be attracted to an entire class of people; for example, a male does not have to be attracted to females as a class, and to be honest, this can make living the Law of Chastity much easier!
• whilst some cultures offer very narrow gender stereotypes, there are actually an infinite number of ways to be a righteous man or woman
• the one constant is that all these things are fluid because humans are dynamic

To which I add the following:

• God, aware that sexuality is powerful, has provided guidelines to keep us safe and happy and help us to become most like Him
• we are currently in a historically unique time that presents a number of complications for Saints, so don't worry if you feel confused at times
• you are going to screw up in one or more areas of the Law of Chastity; I know because I have done the same
• don't panic when you find yourself in a headspace that doesn't fully match your eternal desires; this is a perfectly normal part of discipleship, which is why we have so many scriptures about it
• NEVER listen to someone who wants to place you in a box and keep you there; the whole point of the gospel is to free us from such limitations
• wherever you are in this process, I love you, and you are important to me
• it is essential that we are all nice to each other since we're all works in progress
• remember that perception is reality, so when people believe things about themselves that aren't true, those things are true to them at that point in time; try to be someone people might listen to when they're ready to shift their perceptions

I've had several young men and at least one former missionary thank me for taking this approach with them. They report feeling empowered by knowing the truth.

 

Similarly, Jordan Peterson has done a good job of examining the illogic we are seeing in current gender theory:

 

 

Thanks,

-Smac