Uncomfortable Truths and how we deal with them

[kimpearson]

I have been thinking about a number of issues that cause most of the faith crisis or hard discussions in the Church.  I have thought about Brad Wilcox's attempts to give explanations to those issues.  I have recently been listening to Jared Halverson's explanation of those issues.  In my opinion, neither Brad nor Jared, give explanations that in the following words of Joseph Smith tastes sweet.

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

So I would like to present some of those issues, what I see as the facts the Church claims on the issue and my views.  Would you please share your views on the issue and how you find an explanation that "tastes good" to you.

Women and the priesthood

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

Your views

I would love to hear your views on this issue and how you find a sweet taste with any explanation that has been given.

 

More issues to come but let us address them one at a time.

[Bernard Gui]

FWIW, the pattern we follow on earth was established before the foundation of the world with the Father and the Son as the source of all authority. The doctrinal position of the First Born as God, Creator, Savior, and Father of the Faithful is set forth in the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve’s doctrinal exposition “The Father and the Son” (1916). The doctrine of foreordination to the Priesthood After the Order of the Son of God (what we call the Melchizedek Priesthood) is expounded in Alma 13 and D&C 107. As far as has been revealed, Priesthood authority is invested in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and their sons. Unless there is further revelation to the contrary, this is how the Kingdom of God is organized.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.

Just because they don't tell you they are seeking revelation about something, doesn't mean they aren't seeking it.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

50 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I have been thinking about a number of issues that cause most of the faith crisis or hard discussions in the Church.  I have thought about Brad Wilcox's attempts to give explanations to those issues.  I have recently been listening to Jared Halverson's explanation of those issues.  In my opinion, neither Brad nor Jared, give explanations that in the following words of Joseph Smith tastes sweet.

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

So I would like to present some of those issues, what I see as the facts the Church claims on the issue and my views.  Would you please share your views on the issue and how you find an explanation that "tastes good" to you.

Churches don't make claims, people do.  So quoting specific people is a good first step.  On the other hand, the King Follet Funeral Sermon is not Scripture, and was not even taken down verbatim.  Joseph's words have to be reconstructed from a variety of divergent notes -- which are based on his non-canonical opinions.  Sometimes it is likely that Orson Pratt's or Carol Lynn Pearson's opinions are every bit as valid as those of LDS Presidents.  And in some cases, perhaps moreso.  Hard to tell in the interim.

50 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Women and the priesthood

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

Many of these statements are simply false or misleading, which may stem from ethnocentrism and lack of familiarity with the ancient world -- including the Bible.  Other false claims are based on a failure to take the measure of biology, anthropology, and other sciences.  No one is to "blame" for the actual division of labor between man and woman.  That has been a natural result of several million years of mainly very primitive life and the basic need for raw survival.  Modern humans make the fundamental mistake of assuming that someone made a decision to do it the way it is done, instead of understanding that it has all been human nature -- just as it has been among other mammals.  Humans are animals, mammals.  It would be utterly silly to ask a zoologist why chimpanzee culture is the way it is.  Chimps act the way they do because it all came naturally, not because of deliberate unfairness by one gender or the other.  Humans are animals,  not gods.  Nature and DNA count for far more than nurture.  Wise people simply accept that reality

50 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

Your views

I would love to hear your views on this issue and how you find a sweet taste with any explanation that has been given....................

Don't see that a sweet taste is relevant -- sounds too much like "itching ears," and "there is no accounting for taste" -- because it is a matter of individual, human preference.  If one relates that to the power of the Holy Spirit, that might make some sense.  But "taste," no.  One man's sweet taste is another man's poison.

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

FWIW, the pattern we follow on earth was established before the foundation of the world with the Father and the Son as the source of all authority. The doctrinal position of the First Born as God, Creator, Savior, and Father of the Faithful is set forth in the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve’s doctrinal exposition “The Father and the Son” (1916). The doctrine of foreordination to the Priesthood After the Order of the Son of God (what we call the Melchizedek Priesthood) is expounded in Alma 13 and D&C 107. As far as has been revealed, Priesthood authority is invested in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and their sons. Unless there is further revelation to the contrary, this is how the Kingdom of God is organized.

That sounds like a very good synchronic summary, Bernard.  However, what do we do with diachronic reality?  Both the Bible and ancient Near Eastern reality interpose themselves and tend to destroy that basic construct.

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That sounds like a very good synchronic summary, Bernard.  However, what do we do with diachronic reality?  Both the Bible and ancient Near Eastern reality interpose themselves and tend to destroy that basic construct.

I give the baton to the revelations that established that basic construct, in this case given to Alma and Joseph Smith and then expanded by 15 modern prophets. If the pattern was composed by the Father and the Son before the world was created, then the Bible and ancient Near East practices must play second fiddle and viola.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[kimpearson]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Many of these statements are simply false or misleading, which may stem from ethnocentrism and lack of familiarity with the ancient world -- including the Bible.  Other false claims are based on a failure to take the measure of biology, anthropology, and other sciences.  No one is to "blame" for the actual division of labor between man and woman.  That has been a natural result of several million years of mainly very primitive life and the basic need for raw survival.  Modern humans make the fundamental mistake of assuming that someone made a decision to do it the way it is done, instead of understanding that it has all been human nature -- just as it has been among other mammals.  Humans are animals, mammals.  It would be utterly silly to ask a zoologist why chimpanzee culture is the way it is.  Chimps act the way they do because it all came naturally, not because of deliberate unfairness by one gender or the other.  Humans are animals,  not gods.  Nature and DNA count for far more than nurture.  Wise people simply accept that reality

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Please if your going to call my statements false or misleading, give evidence of how they are false or misleading.

[kimpearson]

26 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Just because they don't tell you they are seeking revelation about something, doesn't mean they aren't seeking it.

 

That is why I said it appears they aren't.  Have you heard or seen anything that tells you they are?

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

Since God defines eternal life as knowing Him and His Son, I understand why JS would describe the process of coming to know Deity as sweet.  I would agree that sweet is one apt description of my discipleship and efforts to better know Deity.

Part of that sweetness is receiving spiritual confirmation of the true doctrine that God loves all of His children and makes available to each son and daughter the opportunity for eternal life.

Is that doctrine not true in your eyes?  If you don’t believe that doctrine, why it is or isn’t true would seem to be the most relevant inquiry.  If you do believe it’s true then, for the only “prize” that matters, we agree that gender isn’t an issue.  

It seems to me that we mortals would do best to understand that we are not in a position to provide any lasting peace or comfort to those of our brothers and sisters who struggle to understand the mind and will of our Father.

Our role is to invite them to go to Deity.  To seek to feel of Divine love and care.  My experience has been that as Divine relationships deepen our questions change as our eyes are better able to “see afar off” and as we grow in the “rest” Jesus has promised to give to those who come unto Him.

[Peacefully]

I’ll just sit back and let the men explain. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

I have been thinking about a number of issues that cause most of the faith crisis or hard discussions in the Church.  I have thought about Brad Wilcox's attempts to give explanations to those issues.  I have recently been listening to Jared Halverson's explanation of those issues.  In my opinion, neither Brad nor Jared, give explanations that in the following words of Joseph Smith tastes sweet.

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

So I would like to present some of those issues, what I see as the facts the Church claims on the issue and my views.  Would you please share your views on the issue and how you find an explanation that "tastes good" to you.

Women and the priesthood

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

Your views

I would love to hear your views on this issue and how you find a sweet taste with any explanation that has been given.

 

More issues to come but let us address them one at a time.

And yet it’s said the prophet Joseph Smith testified that if he were to reveal the more advanced doctrines of the kingdom that he was holding back that the leaders of the highest councils of the Church of that day would immediately rise up and kill him. It doesn’t sound like the deeper doctrines of the kingdom of God would “taste” all that “delicious” and “sweet” to the vast majority of the members of the Church. In fact, it sadly appears you’re already choking and filled with unremitting angst over the basic teachings of the Church. One of the devil’s most formidable weapons is to beguile the members of the Church to let go of the iron rod (diligent scripture study) and tempt them to wander off into strange and destructive roads that lead away from the tree of life. 

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

was not even taken down verbatim.  Joseph's words have to be reconstructed from a variety of divergent notes - 

Reminds me of a big part of the OT ... and yet ...

[Rain]

I'm unsure of the topic here.  Are you wanting to know how we deal with the uncomfortable truths or what are our views on specific uncomfortable truths? 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Rain

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, let’s roll said:

…..and as we grow in the “rest” Jesus has promised to give to those who come unto Him.

Any decade now………soon.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I have been thinking about a number of issues that cause most of the faith crisis or hard discussions in the Church.  I have thought about Brad Wilcox's attempts to give explanations to those issues.  I have recently been listening to Jared Halverson's explanation of those issues.  In my opinion, neither Brad nor Jared, give explanations that in the following words of Joseph Smith tastes sweet.

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

So I would like to present some of those issues, what I see as the facts the Church claims on the issue and my views.  Would you please share your views on the issue and how you find an explanation that "tastes good" to you.

Women and the priesthood

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

Your views

I would love to hear your views on this issue and how you find a sweet taste with any explanation that has been given.

 

More issues to come but let us address them one at a time.

Alma 32 comes to mind. It is interesting to me that the determination of what is good or not is not based on facts, but on testing propositions. Sometimes our reactions to the perceived facts get in the way of the spiritual propositions at hand.

I think there are more facts and propositions to consider or alter on this point:

1.      The overriding fact is that itis Church doctrine that the priesthood keys are delegated to those the Lord has called.

2.      For this reason, I would replace “cannot be/cannot"” with “are not/do not”, since any are determined by the Lord through revelation and commandment.

3.      Elder Oak’s talk offers a few facts and explanations: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng (1)“Ultimately, all keys of the priesthood are held by the Lord Jesus Christ, whose priesthood it is. He is the one who determines what keys are delegated to mortals and how those keys will be used.” (2): “The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood.” (3) (quoting President Smith): “While the sisters have not been given the Priesthood, it has not been conferred upon them, that does not mean that the Lord has not given unto them authority. … A person may have authority given to him, or a sister to her, to do certain things in the Church that are binding and absolutely necessary for our salvation, such as the work that our sisters do in the House of the Lord. They have authority given unto them to do some great and wonderful things, sacred unto the Lord, and binding just as thoroughly as are the blessings that are given by the men who hold the Priesthood.”

Edited February 27, 2022 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

If it's just an issue of what God wants/allows then they should be petitioning God.

If it's the eternal order of things then all the petitioning in the world won't change it (and if it did it would be to our condemnation).

13 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.

Would the opposite not be true, if the revelatory response was that the priesthood as currently constituted is both God's will and eternally correct?  Would not just as many or more reject that uncomfortable truth?

Joseph taught it is wrong to inquire when there are revelations existing that suit the subject.  How do we read the scriptures?

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I give the baton to the revelations that established that basic construct, in this case given to Alma and Joseph Smith and then expanded by 15 modern prophets. If the pattern was composed by the Father and the Son before the world was created, then the Bible and ancient Near East practices must play second fiddle and viola.

It is quite common among Latter-day Saints to ignore the Bible, even though it is part of the canon of Holy Writ, and this is a major cause of dysfunction among them.  Unable to temper their narrow and synchronic opinions, they fail to come to terms with the real world.  They have got a Bible, but are not thanking the Jews for it (II Ne 29:4).  While an understandable human tendency, there really is no excuse for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please if your going to call my statements false or misleading, give evidence of how they are false or misleading.

Those are not so much your statements as the typical statements which we have seen and discussed on this board ad nauseum.  There is no point to a rehash as long as the same fundamental suppositions and errors are being made.  Latter-day Saints are going to be in that fever swamp for the forseeable future.  There simply is no getting out of that miasma.

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ll just sit back and let the men explain. 

🙄

[rpn]

19 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

And there are many other women and young women who spend zero time on it, IME because they don't see it as something be done TO THEM that demeans/belittles/underestimates/interferes with ultimate possibilities.   Trust in the Lord and lean not unto thine own understanding, is often a big ask.

Edited February 28, 2022 by rpn

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

 

For the bolded fact, I'm not exactly sure what you are saying but if you are saying that women cannot preside where any man who holds the priesthood is present, that is false.

Edited February 27, 2022 by bluebell

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

For the bolded fact, I'm not exactly sure what you are saying but if you are saying that women cannot preside where any man who holds the priesthood is present, that is false.

I’m assuming that they have direct responsibility over. Like the Bishop presides over the ward sort of thing. It’s still not fully correct since primary usually has calling of men and women who are teaching the kiddos (also male/female). So in presiding in the primary presidency one would be over several men in their calling. But It could technically be kinda true if you count only the kids (though I’m not sure why you would ignore the teachers). 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited February 28, 2022 by BlueDreams

[LoudmouthMormon]

21 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Facts -

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

 

The title of this thread has something to do with uncomfortable truths.  Honestly, I find none of the truths/facts you list, to be uncomfortable.  I'm not even uncomfortable with any of your views, including where you describe being uncomfortable.  Nor do I believe I'm just acting like some misogynistic uncaring male.  The LDS women I care about have all, to a woman, without exception, voiced that they're fine with the situation.  I don't have any of 'em handy right now, but I'm willing to guess they'd be uncomfortable with some other lady trying to urge/prove/pressure some uncomfortability into them, while they're happily doing their disciple-of-Christ's-church thing.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

For the bolded fact, I'm not exactly sure what you are saying but if you are saying that women cannot preside where any man who holds the priesthood is present, that is false.

This is new to me.  And it seems like you got three up votes for your statement.  But I thought that the highest ranking priesthood holder always presided in the meeting.  For example in a sacrament meeting, a bishop might conduct, but if the stake president is there, he would preside.  

Are you saying that a woman can preside over a priesthood holder?  Are you talking about presiding or conducting.    I guess what I am asking is, how can or does a woman preside over a priesthood holder?

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is new to me.  And it seems like you got three up votes for your statement.  But I thought that the highest ranking priesthood holder always presided in the meeting.  For example in a sacrament meeting, a bishop might conduct, but if the stake president is there, he would preside.  

Are you saying that a woman can preside over a priesthood holder?  Are you talking about presiding or conducting.    I guess what I am asking is, how can or does a woman preside over a priesthood holder?

If presiding means has authority….

If he is acting as a Primary teacher or Cub Scout leader, he takes direction from the Presidency.  A male Primary teacher does not preside in Primary.  If a husband comes with his wife to a RS meeting (perhaps she needs his physical assistance), he does not by default become the presider.  If the EQ president comes into watch his kid give a talk, he isn’t suddenly presiding in Primary.

I was Ward Librarian, I had two high priests working under me.  The nonPriesthood auxiliaries and committees do not give standing to someone because they hold a priesthood office.  A music/choir director is over the organist, even if male (as is common in my wards).  When I was building supervisor or whatever it was called, everyone, male or female, had to receive and give me the building keys according to my schedule, not theirs.

If presiding means they are in charge of the meeting…the Handbook language is “conduct” for both male and female leaders in the auxiliaries, so my question is does the bishop preside even in his absence?

Found this in handbook…women can preside:

Quote

The presiding officer may conduct the meeting. Or he or she may ask someone else, such as a counselor, to conduct under his or her direction.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/29-meetings-in-the-church?lang=eng#title_number2

Edited February 28, 2022 by Calm