Autistic children and Sunday School

[juliann]

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

[Fether]

I would ask whoever is demanding this to please come into the class room and teach you how to do that with an autistic child

Edited August 10, 2021 by Fether

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

a man autistic child

Typo?  Thinking you mean “an autistic”…

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would ask whoever is demanding this to please come into the class room and teach you how to do that with a man autistic child

How is that helpful? The parent isn't the teacher and what is a "man autistic child?"

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would ask whoever is demanding this to please come into the class room and teach you how to do that with a man autistic child

The problem is that is not a realistic request as that creates change for the child, which causes stress.  The solution needs to be figured out first so there is less need for experimenting with the child.

And while the parent needs to be consulted in setting up a policy for the child, Primary should be a way to be supportive of parents, not to just give them more work to do.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

This Friend story feels so appropriate to this.  Sad the reality doesn’t match this ideal. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2018/04/bugs-for-brother-baugh?lang=eng

Quote

Lizbeth had autism. Sometimes people with autism focus a lot on one thing. Maybe that’s why she loved bugs so much. She couldn’t get enough of them! Lizbeth loved when Mom told her scripture stories with bugs in them—like when God sent locusts to help Moses.

“I almost forgot!” Dad said as he stopped at a red light. “The bishopric is being released today.”

Lizbeth’s eyes got wide. “Brother Baugh too?”

“Yep.”

“I don’t want Brother Baugh to leave!” Lizbeth felt like crying. It was hard for her to deal with changes. She liked things to stay the same.

Mom twisted around in her seat. “He’s not leaving, sweetie. He just won’t be in the bishopric anymore.”

That made Lizbeth feel a little better. “Will he still be on the stand waiting for my pictures?”

“Not after today,” Mom said. “But you can still see him at church.”

Every Sunday, Lizbeth drew a picture for Brother Baugh. It started one week when he visited Lizbeth’s Primary class. Lizbeth drew a praying mantis on the chalkboard of her Primary classroom. She was sad she had to leave before it was finished. Brother Baugh asked Lizbeth to draw a new picture for him on paper. She drew a bright red ladybug with black spots. Brother Baugh liked it a lot! Lizbeth decided to draw a picture for him every week.

Last week she drew him a beetle. Before that she drew an ant colony full of twisty tunnels. Now it won’t be the same, Lizbeth thought.

“What if Brother Baugh doesn’t want my pictures anymore?” she asked Mom and Dad.

Pokémon always seemed like mostly bugs to me, even the nonbug types.

[The Nehor]

I am guessing the other child thinks this is not fair because they would rather be drawing Pokémon as well instead of doing whatever ‘boring’ thing the teacher wants everyone to do. I mean, that is the way I would feel if I had the choice between drawing Moses or drawing Pokémon.

The parent should talk about the differences and give a child-level understanding of autism to the child. Instead the parent decides not to parent and goes to the Bishop to demand he ‘fix’ the problem. The Bishop has no idea what is going on as he only gets the one side so he goes to the Primary Presidency and this was possibly mangled in translation as “Bishop said she can’t do that anymore”.

I know it is easy for a non-parent such as myself to complain but this is an epidemic in some wards. I know my Bishop has been asked a few times to talk to kids about their bad grades or to help some kid to decide what elective to take or to tell a child they need to listen to their parent and other ridiculous stuff. Parents! Be parents!

*Nehor gets off soapbox and picks it up and starts carrying it home*

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

How is that helpful? The parent isn't the teacher and what is a "man autistic child?"

Read the post again. Fether, I believe, is saying to have whomever complained to the bishop to come in the classroom and teach the autistic child to not draw Poke'mon pictures, which is a great idea! Cause it ain't happening. 

In my previous ward we had a family in the ward that adopted many special needs children that ran the gambit. From autism to wheel chair bound to you name it. One child had to wear a helmet because she would bang her head on the walls in class. So many issues, I might be wrong on the numbers but there had to have been over 10 that were adopted. We as ward members would rally around and do all we could to work with them. The couple thought their children should be treated like the rest and would rely heavily on Primary/Sunday School teachers to take care of them so they could have some time w/o them in the adult classes. I taught some of them in Primary. And it was scary once in a while because the one that banged her head would lash out at people as well. So if my old ward could do that, sorry so long, then I think that bishop should let the young man with Autism draw his Poke'mon and to heck with the complainer! 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

child to not draw Poke'mon pictures, which is a great idea! Cause it ain't happening

Oh, I wouldn’t put it past a number of pushy parents I have known, who think they have the right to dictate to teachers what class should be like.  A goodly amount won’t as they want to control, not do the work themselves, but the risk is high enough I would suggest a role play rather than the actual class with child.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

Yes

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

This is is tantamount to punishing a child with no legs for not playing soccer with the other children.

Perhaps the bishop did not understand the disability

I would take it to the Stake President.

Edited August 10, 2021 by mfbukowski

[T-Shirt]

There is quite a vast spectrum of autism, some are far more capable than others.  That being said, I feel like the bishopric should bend over backwards to support special need s kids and their parents.  In our ward, in the more difficult cases, we call an adult to be with the special needs kids in their classes.  They help them and consult with the parents to know how to best help.  This takes pressure off of the teachers.  If the child needs to be taken out because he is distracting or being unruly, the called adult can do that and continue to work with the child in the hallway or an open classroom.

[Peacefully]

One of the boys in my primary class has anxiety and plays with fidget toys. I just ask him to play with the least distractive one. No one has complained in sharing time, yet.

 

When I was a nursery leader, we had a little boy on the spectrum and we let him use the iPad a lot. It kept him calm. Once he got into primary, they called someone to be his helper and go to class with him. 
 

When I was the YW President, one of the girls drew in her notebook during the class. She is a very good artist. I didn’t mind, I was just happy she was there. 

 

My granddaughter has pretty severe autism. I would love it if she came to primary and drew Pokémon. She wouldn’t be able to sit still long enough. 
 

I guess what I am trying to say is somebody needs to tell the mom or dad or whoever is complaining to mind their business. If this child is in church and happy without causing a lot of disruption, what is the problem? If their child is jealous then they should have a talk with their child about differences, and kindness, and compassion. 
 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Peacefully

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

Handbook info is located here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng&para=title_number167-p631#title_number167

It's not long on rules and regulations, but it's pretty clear about how leaders ought to be approaching these kinds of situations:

Leaders, teachers, and other members seek to understand each individual who has a disability and his or her strengths and needs. They can increase their understanding by talking with the person and his or her family members. Resources are available at disability.ChurchofJesusChrist.org

 

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Typo?  Thinking you mean “an autistic”…

Yes haha

[Fether]

4 hours ago, juliann said:

How is that helpful? The parent isn't the teacher and what is a "man autistic child?"

It was a typo, my bad.

but it would be helpful because hopefully whoever is complaining may realize how ridiculous the request is.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Fether

[CV75]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/children/resources/topics/autism?lang=eng

Most units (branch, stake, etc.)  have a specialist in teaching / child development/ child psychology / special education with whom to counsel.

[provoman]

7 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

  

Yes, petty

Yes, mean

And I really can't see how any of it is Christlike.  If the Bishop is aware of the situation of the child, the Bishop, in my not so humble opinion, should be ashamed of issuing the edict.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, provoman said:

  

Yes, petty

Yes, mean

And I really can't see how any of it is Christlike.  If the Bishop is aware of the situation of the child, the Bishop, in my not so humble opinion, should be ashamed of issuing the edict.

I am dubious the Bishop ever issued that edict. If I were the parent of the autistic child i would talk to the Bishop. If the bishop did do that talk the stake disability specialist. If that doesn’t work talk to the Stake President. If that doesn’t work then go dust your feet off in front of the chapel.

[Kenngo1969]

I know next to nothing about Pokemon ... Could one sneak Gospel principles into Pokemon, somehow? ...  Hmmm.   (Yes, while I know next to nothing about autism, as well, I am well enough aware that many of those who are autistic prize routine, are not redirected easily, and so on ...  I know that's probably not a realistic response to this particular situation ... Just thinking "aloud," as it were.)  Another thing that occurs to me: Is having every child "on task" at all times worth the price that would be paid if one of those children were to have a meltdown?  Or would one child [allegedly] not being "on task" be so injurious to the welfare of the class, the "welfare" of the Holy Spirit, and so on, that it's worth risking a meltdown?   I can't imagine a Primary teacher [but yes, I know the issue, as stated, is with the bishop] saying, "Sure, my class was a madhouse today because Timmy had a meltdown, but ... I made 'em stick with the program, boy!  The little heckions aren't going to be able to put anything over on me!!! "  To borrow and slightly alter something that President Thomas S. Monson once said, "Never let a prescribed, programmed, scripted lesson to be taught become more important than a child to be loved."  (By the way, are we sure the Primary President isn't trying to "borrow" the Bishop's authority? )  Many Primary teachers I know would be happy if it could be said, "I'm not sure how much anyone learned about the Gospel of Jesus Christ this week, but no blood was shed and no bones were broken.  I call that a win."

"Yes, Ken!  Duh!  Been here, seen this!"   But just in case: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/disability?lang=eng; https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/disability/video-resources?lang=eng

Edited August 10, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I know next to nothing about Pokemon ... Could one sneak Gospel principles into Pokemon, somehow? ...  Hmmm.   (Yes, while I know next to nothing about autism, as well, I am well enough aware that many of those who are autistic prize routine, are not redirected easily, and so on ...  I know that's probably not a realistic response to this particular situation ... Just thinking "aloud," as it were.)  Another thing that occurs to me: Is having every child "on task" at all times worth the price that would be paid if one of those children were to have a meltdown?  Or would one child [allegedly] not being "on task" be so injurious to the welfare of the class, the "welfare" of the Holy Spirit, and so on, that it's worth risking a meltdown?   I can't imagine a Primary teacher [but yes, I know the issue, as stated, is with the bishop] saying, "Sure, my class was a madhouse today because Timmy had a meltdown, but ... I made 'em stick with the program, boy!  The little heckions aren't going to be able to put anything over on me!!! "  To borrow and slightly alter something that President Thomas S. Monson once said, "Never let a prescribed, programmed, scripted lesson to be taught become more important than a child to be loved."  (By the way, are we sure the Primary President isn't trying to "borrow" the Bishop's authority? )  Many Primary teachers I know would be happy if it could be said, "I'm not sure how much anyone learned about the Gospel of Jesus Christ this week, but no blood was shed and no bones were broken.  I call that a win."

"Yes, Ken!  Duh!  Been here, seen this!"   But just in case: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/disability?lang=eng; https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/disability/video-resources?lang=eng

Simplified the point of the pokemon go game is to collect/catch all the pokemon creatures.  Sometimes you can collect them just walking around.  Other times you need to battle other players or bad guys to collect more pokemon. The battles are never gory.  The pokemon use powers of ice, fire, water, rock etc to battle.  After a battle you do have to revive/restore their powers, but it isn't gory or graphic in any way.

I hated the original card game when my oldest used to play it.  It seemed like such a waste of money with the cards.  I also didn't like the voices and acting of the shows.  I have only caught bits and pieces of the show so I couldn't tell you what more there is to it.

My youngest started me on pokemon go and I played, at first, to connect with him.  It has got me walking more.  I've also met more people from it.  And I've discovered cool art, memorials, parks and architecture etc from it.  

You can definitely let it get out of hand like any other pasttime, but it isn't something to be afraid of.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Rain

[Stormin' Mormon]

15 hours ago, Peacefully said:

One of the boys in my primary class has anxiety and plays with fidget toys. I just ask him to play with the least distractive one. No one has complained in sharing time, yet.

 

When I was a nursery leader, we had a little boy on the spectrum and we let him use the iPad a lot. It kept him calm. Once he got into primary, they called someone to be his helper and go to class with him. 
 

When I was the YW President, one of the girls drew in her notebook during the class. She is a very good artist. I didn’t mind, I was just happy she was there. 

 

My granddaughter has pretty severe autism. I would love it if she came to primary and drew Pokémon. She wouldn’t be able to sit still long enough. 
 

I guess what I am trying to say is somebody needs to tell the mom or dad or whoever is complaining to mind their business. If this child is in church and happy without causing a lot of disruption, what is the problem? If their child is jealous then they should have a talk with their child about differences, and kindness, and compassion. 
 

 

 

I'm a grown man with ADHD, though I'm not medicated.  For the most part, I've found healthy and non-disruptive ways to cope.  For church, I have a clipboard with nonogram puzzles that I've purchased and printed from griddlers.net.  (BTW: a nonogram is a type of non-verbal, spatial orientation Japanese logic puzzle).  This engages my brain enough that my mind doesn't wander, but it doesn't engage the verbal parts of my brain, so I'm still paying attention to what's being said.  I'm even engaged enough with the lesson that I'll usually make several comments in my Sunday School or Priesthood classrooms. 

If someone were to tell me that I couldn't have my clipboard during my Sunday meetings, I would sit there in the pew and from all outward appearances, it would LOOK like I was paying attention.  But in reality, my mind would be a thousand miles away, spinning at a thousand miles an hour.  And I'd go home from church each week having gained nothing from the experience. 

Sometimes, engaged learning does not look like engaged learning.

[Rain]

24 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm a grown man with ADHD, though I'm not medicated.  For the most part, I've found healthy and non-disruptive ways to cope.  For church, I have a clipboard with nonogram puzzles that I've purchased and printed from griddlers.net.  (BTW: a nonogram is a type of non-verbal, spatial orientation Japanese logic puzzle).  This engages my brain enough that my mind doesn't wander, but it doesn't engage the verbal parts of my brain, so I'm still paying attention to what's being said.  I'm even engaged enough with the lesson that I'll usually make several comments in my Sunday School or Priesthood classrooms. 

If someone were to tell me that I couldn't have my clipboard during my Sunday meetings, I would sit there in the pew and from all outward appearances, it would LOOK like I was paying attention.  But in reality, my mind would be a thousand miles away, spinning at a thousand miles an hour.  And I'd go home from church each week having gained nothing from the experience. 

Sometimes, engaged learning does not look like engaged learning.

It's interesting how it works isn't it.   Years ago I used to crochet in RS and SS.  The things I was making took very little thought as the stitches were the same things over and over. I'm a kinesthetic learner and auditory learning is difficult for me.  By using my hands on the crocheting it helped me listen better.

That really bothered people though so I gave it up.  I took up doodling for awhile because people seemed to be ok with that.  Problem was that I really have to think about what I am drawing and find I am not focusing on the lesson when I do.  So I gave that up as well.

Currently I am teaching a primary class and I use lots of kinesthetic methods as well as the customary audio and sometimes visual.  We do a lot of that in singing time as well.  I'm not fond of teaching primary, but my mind is focused a lot more than in adult classes!

[rpn]

Every ward is supposed to have a disability specialist.   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/callings/disability-specialist?lang=eng who is trained and able to work these things out.    When someone has an issue with a child's behavior's/actions (disability or not, known disability or suspected) the way this should work is that the teacher speaks with the parents about what the child is doing, why they might be doing it, what might be prompting them to do it, and whether there are substitutions that might be considered.   This may require some observation in a classroom.   And sometimes it is helpful for the other kids in the classroom to understand what is happening for the child who is acting differently.   Usually there is a way to resolve the issue (and maybe it would be in this case, allowing the child to draw with their chair angled so no one else can see it.   Or maybe it would be helping the children understand that this child does this to feel safe or to focus (whatever it is)  because their brain works differently.   Maybe the teacher lets everyone who wants to dray pokeman to draw pokeman as long as they are otherwise full participants in the class.   

The Church has clearly stated its intention to include all in organizational activities.   It can only be a clueless bishop or PP who passes on the edict  (though of course a faithful parent might talk with a child with ASD about the fact that others are distracted and work to see if they might use some other tool or do it in some other way too).  

[HappyJackWagon]

18 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

Yes, it is petty.

Yes, it is thoughtless of the bishop to refuse such a simple accommodation for this child.

There is no rule or regulation that would require this kind of action.

It seems a simple push-back by your friend may be useful. Good luck.

[bOObOO]

19 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

My rule is that I doesn't do what someone else wants me to do unless or until I agree to accept that rule as my rule, so if that were my child I would tell that Primary President that I do not accept that as a solution.  And my child would continue to draw Pokemon until she or he agreed to stop.  I would not take her crayons from her, or her paper to write on.  I might take my child out of that class, though.  I'd be like:  'Pokemon and Church at my house now, people.  Anyone who wants to come is invited.'