Autistic children and Sunday School

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Simplified the point of the pokemon go game is to collect/catch all the pokemon creatures.  Sometimes you can collect them just walking around.  Other times you need to battle other players or bad guys to collect more pokemon. ...

Okay.  Really big picture, here, then, say, "One of the characters represents God, another represents Satan, another represents you when you have to make a choice ..."  (And yes, I'm half-joking ... but only half.)   

 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm a grown man with ADHD, though I'm not medicated.  For the most part, I've found healthy and non-disruptive ways to cope.  For church, I have a clipboard with nonogram puzzles that I've purchased and printed from griddlers.net.  (BTW: a nonogram is a type of non-verbal, spatial orientation Japanese logic puzzle).  This engages my brain enough that my mind doesn't wander, but it doesn't engage the verbal parts of my brain, so I'm still paying attention to what's being said.  I'm even engaged enough with the lesson that I'll usually make several comments in my Sunday School or Priesthood classrooms. 

If someone were to tell me that I couldn't have my clipboard during my Sunday meetings, I would sit there in the pew and from all outward appearances, it would LOOK like I was paying attention.  But in reality, my mind would be a thousand miles away, spinning at a thousand miles an hour.  And I'd go home from church each week having gained nothing from the experience. 

Sometimes, engaged learning does not look like engaged learning.

Same except I am medicated and my coping mechanisms are different. Unless I am DEEPLY interested in what is being said I often need some form of distraction to occupy part of my mind so I can pay attention. There are a few speakers I know of that I can always listen to because they are or were always saying something interesting. I can think of four. Two were general authorities. It is only rarely possible for me to force that level of interest. I suspect I often appear rude to others when in a church meeting.

In work meetings I just appear to be taking notes the whole time (sometimes I even am). This is sometimes intimidating to others which has its own advantages. In church meetings I have my tablet running and something to distract me. It usually doesn’t occasion comment because I am often asked questions that I need to look up (I am the ward clerk).

I am going to try some of those puzzles. If you haven’t tried in the past I would suggest trying medication. Unless you have an addictive personality it is easy to stop if it doesn’t work.

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Okay.  Really big picture, here, then, say, "One of the characters represents God, another represents Satan, another represents you when you have to make a choice ..."  (And yes, I'm half-joking ... but only half.)   

 

 

I've played it on my phone, just to see what the hub bub was/is all about, and the app uses GPS to show you where you might find a Pokemon character, walking around... some guy or gal dressed in a costume.  I found a few. Works while flying too.

No God or Satan characters in the Pokemon world, as far as I know.  And children aren't necessarily the best artists for drawing Pokemon characters.

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm a grown man with ADHD, though I'm not medicated.  For the most part, I've found healthy and non-disruptive ways to cope.

I've tried to cope w/o meds, to the detriment of many.  My official position is that Adderal is proof that God loves us.

[bsjkki]

I got a talking to once because my autistic daughter and her sibling with ADD doodled in young women’s. I told her they listened better that way. She wanted me to stop them but, no, I would not do that. I was happy they were in church. 

I won’t start with any of the type 1 diabetic stories...there are many. 

People can be really clueless when they’ve lived a life where they have not had to get a clue.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Chum said:

I've tried to cope w/o meds, to the detriment of many.  My official position is that Adderal is proof that God loves us.

Concerta saved my teenager.  

[bOObOO]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

I got a talking to once because my autistic daughter and her sibling with ADD doodled in young women’s. I told her they listened better that way. She wanted me to stop them but, no, I would not do that. I was happy they were in church. 

I won’t start with any of the type 1 diabetic stories...there are many. 

People can be really clueless when they’ve lived a life where they have not had to get a clue.

I consider myself to be someone who is happy to give clues to other people, to try to cure them from being clueless.

[Chum]

20 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

My strongest Church-related regrets involve me heeding leadership when I knew better. 

You have to live with you. Do what you know is right.

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, Chum said:

My strongest Church-related regrets involve me heeding leadership when I knew better. 

You have to live with you. Do what you know is right.

Mine too. Personal revelation is a thing. You can sustain your leaders and think your leaders are wrong at the same time. 

[bOObOO]

Just now, Chum said:

My strongest Church-related regrets involve me heeding leadership when I knew better. 

You have to live with you. Do what you know is right.

Whether those who extend callings know it or not, our Lord directs us in our callings to help us learn what can be learned in those callings, not because we already know everything we can learn in those callings.  Bishops are made bishops to learn, too.

God is and will always be our best teacher... including all 3 of the main people we refer to as God.

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

You can sustain your leaders and think your leaders are wrong at the same time. 

I think this is true. I don't need leaders to be consistenly right. However if there's some ongoing, minor harm in play, I might need to seek out measures to mitigate it until things change. I see it as a routine humanity thing.

On a larger scale, I've had instances where I felt minor actions of the Q12 & FP were a mistake - which is okay. It's just some disharmony. I file the conflict away and every now and then I take it out to see if I can reconcile anything.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Chum

[let’s roll]

I would withhold judgment on the actions of the Bishop and Primary President as we don’t know all the facts.  

As the parent of an autistic child, my experience with the Church has been faith promoting.  When my child was in Primary the Bishop called a Primary teacher who was a Special Education teacher by profession, to teach my child, who is non-verbal and severely developmentally delayed, one on one during the two hours of Primary.  Initially I objected saying it was unfair to ask this good sister to “work” with my child after working all week doing much the same thing.  The kind teacher was made aware of my concern, came to me and told me how much she loved my child and how much she benefitted from being in his presence.  It was eye opening to find that someone else could see my child as I did.  Not everyone has been as enlightened as this incredible teacher, but all have been warm and welcoming.

Autism is indeed a spectrum in a number of respects.  There are parents of children on the spectrum who ask for accommodations for their children but don’t want to disclose their child is on the spectrum because they don’t want their child to be “labeled.”  

I’ve been asked by parents who come to me for advice on raising an autistic child not to tell anyone, including Church leaders,  their child is on the spectrum.  My first piece of advice is always to be open and honest about their own emotions and fears and to be open and honest with others.  My second piece of advice is that discovering how best to parent a child on the spectrum is a lifelong quest and they should be patient with themselves, and others, on that quest.

[Chum]

18 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I would withhold judgment on the actions of the Bishop and Primary President as we don’t know all the facts.  

I feel taking actions isn't tied to making judgment. We can accept that we don't understand the Biship's thinking without condemning it.

We can also recognize that - in this limited instance - the full direction we're given is likely to do more harm than good. There may be a lot of room to work here. Perhaps there are ways to address the potential distraction without mandating that an autistic kid only color approved Church drawings.  Think. Be flexible. Pray for inspiration.

[bsjkki]

45 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I would withhold judgment on the actions of the Bishop and Primary President as we don’t know all the facts.  

As the parent of an autistic child, my experience with the Church has been faith promoting.  When my child was in Primary the Bishop called a Primary teacher who was a Special Education teacher by profession, to teach my child, who is non-verbal and severely developmentally delayed, one on one during the two hours of Primary.  Initially I objected saying it was unfair to ask this good sister to “work” with my child after working all week doing much the same thing.  The kind teacher was made aware of my concern, came to me and told me how much she loved my child and how much she benefitted from being in his presence.  It was eye opening to find that someone else could see my child as I did.  Not everyone has been as enlightened as this incredible teacher, but all have been warm and welcoming.

Autism is indeed a spectrum in a number of respects.  There are parents of children on the spectrum who ask for accommodations for their children but don’t want to disclose their child is on the spectrum because they don’t want their child to be “labeled.”  

I’ve been asked by parents who come to me for advice on raising an autistic child not to tell anyone, including Church leaders,  their child is on the spectrum.  My first piece of advice is always to be open and honest about their own emotions and fears and to be open and honest with others.  My second piece of advice is that discovering how best to parent a child on the spectrum is a lifelong quest and they should be patient with themselves, and others, on that quest.

One thing I've found, as a parent of a special needs kid, is that sometimes it's hard to hear all the wonderful things that have happened with others and read the happy, faith promoting, experiences in the Ensign or Conference, when you have not had the same care or understanding shown your own child. I am happy you have had such happy experiences at church for your own child. I would hope this would happen for everyone but this has not been my experience. Mine is now an adult but she was mostly ignored by her peers and sat alone through Seminary. You can't force teenagers to be nice to the weird kid. Many are not capable because  they are all bundles of insecurity so I do understand. But, stories are sometimes the happy outlier and not the day to day experience.

Edited August 10, 2021 by bsjkki

[Chum]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

One thing I've found, as a parent of a special needs kid, is that sometimes it hard to hear all the wonderful things that have happened with others and read the happy, faith promoting, experiences in the Ensign or Conference, when you have not had the same care or understanding shown your own child.

I feel this is part of a larger disconnection - where teachings consistenly ignore extremely common scenarios.

eg: forgiveness while abuse is ongoing or living providently while your income is 80% of your basic expenses.

[LoudmouthMormon]

21 hours ago, juliann said:

I have a friend with an autistic child who loves Pokemon. She draws Pokemon in her class. The bishop informed my friend through the Primary President that someone had complained and the child is not to draw Pokemon instead of the approved activities. First, how to you tell an autistic child not to draw what they are fascinated with when nothing comparable is given as a substitute. Second, this seems petty and mean, not to mention a refusal to accomodate special needs children.

Is anyone familiar with any rules, regulations, etc., that could help? 

Wanna make sure I understand.

"someone" complained to the primary president about someone else's kid drawing pokemon in class
The PP took it up with the Bishop, who took it up with your friend the parent.
Your friend took it to you. 

How "one-sided" do you think this account is?  Was the kid being disruptive?  Was the kid called on in class to go up and draw something, and then drew pokemon instead, to the howls of class laughter and the frustration of the teacher?

Or, as we all want to believe, was the child just doing autistic stuff quietly and not bothering anyone, and then some busybody's little brat tattled, and the busybody is gossiping up a storm so fierce the PP and Bishop have bowed to the entitled steamroller and is now taking it out on the parent?

I'm thinking the truth is somewhere in the middle, but assuming the kid wasn't being too disruptive: Well, since apparently your friend took it to you, that leads me to think the parent needs to learn a few things.  That kid will stay that kid throughout the duration of mortal existence.  It's time the parent learned how to deal with other kids and parents who have a problem with her kid.  Because she's in for a lifetime of occasional issues.  She might as well figure out her plan now.  And asking friends to call on a forum to scrutinize rulebooks isn't going to be a winning plan.

Here's my semi-related story about my cool wife.  I suggest your friend adopt a similar toolkit:

Quote

Several years ago, one daughter had double foot surgery and was in a wheelchair for a while. If we ordered a handicap tag to hang in the window, by the time the tag showed up, she'd be out of the wheelchair. So we didn't bother. 

 

My wife parked in the Whole Foods parking lot, halfway down the row of cars, and was carrying our kid from car seat to wheelchair. She was accosted by some well-meaning do-gooder-er who felt the need to instruct my wife on proper parenting.

 

"You're not doing her any favors by treating her like she's normal, you know."

 

My wife ignored her. Didn't even make eye contact. Just started wheeling towards Whole Foods, even though the lady kept talking. But when the lady started following them, and started directing her comments to our daughter, my wife had enough. She turned and made one of her rare-but-effective aggressive "come at me bro" moves towards the lady and yelled "BACK OFF!!" The lady back-pedaled into a car and almost tripped and spilled her organic soy-hazelnut musli all over herself.

 

That event, and others like it, have prompted many discussions with our kids about what happens when cops get called, and what they should and shouldn't do in various situations. 

Ignoring stupid, avoiding stupid, and then finally steamrollering over the top of rude annoying persistent stupid, I think can be done in love and righteousness, if done correctly.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Ignoring stupid, avoiding stupid, and then finally steamrollering over the top of rude annoying persistent stupid, I think can be done in love and righteousness, if done correctly.

What exactly would be the loving and righteous way of steamrolling over the Bishop?

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, bOObOO said:

I've played it on my phone, just to see what the hub bub was/is all about, and the app uses GPS to show you where you might find a Pokemon character, walking around... some guy or gal dressed in a costume.  I found a few. Works while flying too.

Good for you.  Perhaps one day, you will win a cookie.

2 hours ago, bOObOO said:

No God or Satan characters in the Pokemon world, as far as I know.  And children aren't necessarily the best artists for drawing Pokemon characters.

Who the heck cares if someone, particularly a child, is one of "the best artists" or not?   The point isn't to try to find the next Picasso or Rembrandt prodigy.  It's to keep a child occupied, and, hopefully, to help him or her learn something in the process.  You never had any Sunbeam-age children try to show you their latest masterpiece, or if you did, your response was, "Meh, needs work, Dear"?  Jeez, I hope you're never called into nursery.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Chum said:

I've tried to cope w/o meds, to the detriment of many.  My official position is that Adderal is proof that God loves us.

Amphetamines are the best thing that have ever happened to me.

Drugs are nature’s hugs!

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good for you.  Perhaps one day, you will win a cookie.

I always get cookies when I play around on the internet.  Many web hosts ask me if they can give them to me.  I check my history often to get rid of some too because I think too many cookies would make my computer run slower if I never got rid of any.  

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Who the heck cares if someone, particularly a child, is one of "the best artists" or not?   The point isn't to try to find the next Picasso or Rembrandt prodigy.  It's to keep a child occupied, and, hopefully, to help him or her learn something in the process.  You never had any Sunbeam-age children try to show you their latest masterpiece, or if you did, your response was, "Meh, needs work, Dear"?  Jeez, I hope you're never called into nursery.

Oh I think they're cute and all and usually I will give children an A or some stars for their effort, but, still, really, not the best art work that I've ever seen.  But don't tell them I said so. Too much truth at once could blow a child's mind to smithereens.

p.s. oh, and my favorite response to give to a child who shows me their drawings is something like:  Wow! You did this?  Amazing!  What is this thing right here [while I point to something}?  Amazing!

Edited August 10, 2021 by bOObOO

[bOObOO]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Amphetamines are the best thing that have ever happened to me.

Drugs are nature’s hugs!

Some are more natural than others.  Even plants we call weeds can help us feel good and make it more fun to eat other things.

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

What exactly would be the loving and righteous way of steamrolling over the Bishop?

'Hmm, that's not what our Father told me, but I'll think and pray about this some more.  Thank you for your counsel.'

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

What exactly would be the loving and righteous way of steamrolling over the Bishop?

Approach him first, share your concerns. If you feel it is wrongly decided tell him that and if you are really feeling generous share that you may talk to others in the stake and say that you do not mean any disrespect to them personally or the office by doing so.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Approach him first, share your concerns. If you feel it is wrongly decided tell him that and if you are really feeling generous share that you may talk to others in the stake and say that you do not mean any disrespect to them personally or the office by doing so.

I agree that would be a good way to go about it.  But what if everyone in the stake sides with the bishop?  

There really isn't a way to 'steamroll' church leadership.  We can express our opinions about things and our wants and our needs and hope that makes a difference, but in the end that's kind of....the end.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree that would be a good way to go about it.  But what if everyone in the stake sides with the bishop?  

There really isn't a way to 'steamroll' church leadership.  We can express our opinions about things and our wants and our needs and hope that makes a difference, but in the end that's kind of....the end.

You do the best you can. I've been steamrollered by the stake when they wanted to do something I thought was wrong. There is still damage from what happened to someone I care about.