Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Correct. President Nelson (a prophet seer and revelatory) is not able to convince unvaccinated members to vaccinate or mask. Neither is Fauci. It’s not the messenger. It’s the receiver. 

This gets to the issue I shared in this or a similar thread: @pogiuses a risk-benefit analysis for helping people choose to vaccine. Perhaps someone could/should develop a self-administered analysis in a format and language that more resistant folks might be willing to receive and act on. I would think the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases would have the resources and  connections to develop such an instrument. Otherwise it's word-of-mouth from friends and relatives who are converted post-illness, hospitalization or bereavement. I see this level of influence requiring some expertise in moral foundations theory, and helping the user identify where they might be resistant on this level of cognition, while recognizing the potential pros and cons of their personal makeup (as Meyers-Briggs analyses provide).

Related to this, a question for the vaccination or mask resistant poster is, is the CVOID-virus a problem, and where does it rank with other problems?

Edited August 16, 2021 by CV75

[Duncan]

Something that gets me, in our ward, we have a few that are anti vaxx and I know our Stake but I don't know if they attend or not but in or ward they don't come to church!!!!!!!!!! like if this whole pandemic is a joke then show up, every sunday, unmasked, in the seats. Where are they? No idea

Edited August 16, 2021 by Duncan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 8/8/2021 at 2:15 AM, Calm said:

This is the thread for the data on infections and such that tell us more about people than about the disease…go easy on the politics solely because of board rules.

Personal stories of friends or neighbors are welcomed here as well.

Already being sick as I am, I find it almost unbearable to wear a mask for two hours in Church; again! Now that the policy has been reinstated, I just don’t think I have it in me to do this again. It is a shame, because I need the comfort and Spirituality that attendance affords me, as I battle with with the physical. I hope this too, soon will pass. I find that I need the Church and the fellowship, even though it no longer needs me.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Calm]

Have you been able to be vaccinated, Bill?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you been able to be vaccinated, Bill?

Yes, my wife and I got vaccinated on May 5…

Sunday, our entire Bishopric were masked, including all Priesthood and Relief Society leaders who had already read the entire email from the First Presidency. My guess is, this is what they expect all of us to do? I only caught a few words of the email. Is there a link to read the entire thing? Our grandchildren were at the Temple on Friday evening, doing the baptisms for their great, and great-great-grandparents, and they had to be masked. 

[Calm]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021

Dear Brothers and Sisters: We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population. To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective. We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency Russell M. Nelson Dallin H. Oaks Henry B. Eyring

Edited August 17, 2021 by Calm

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021

Dear Brothers and Sisters: We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population. To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective. We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency Russell M. Nelson Dallin H. Oaks Henry B. Eyring

Thank You for posting it. But, I had the virus, and also got vaccinated, sadly nothing seems to be working as promised, despite my protection, I will still be expected to wear a mask again. The mask, exasperates my already fragile health issues, adding too already existing anxiety, as I am trying to cope with an almost certain return to a very difficult surgery. I fear once again, passing through the wilderness and isolation that will follow another long period of forced-inactivity. I wonder how bad things will have to get, in order to resume our ZOOM meetings again. Why, just a couple of months ago we put an end to such virtual meetings. I don’t know what will be, I only know (as I stated) I need the Church, much more than it needs me. 

[Peacefully]

https://apple.news/ALVuK67LuSy62lE203MA1pw
 

Looks like we will all need booster shots sooner than later:(

The Biden admin is going to announce this soon, apparently. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Peacefully

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I wonder how bad things will have to get, in order to resume our ZOOM meetings again. Why, just a couple of months ago we put an end to such virtual meetings.

I don't get that either. We have been thrust into lockdown, and we were forced to have 'home church' this past Sunday, but our very clear direction from the area presidency is that broadcasting church is what we should be doing from this Sunday onwards. Of course, we've never stopped doing this. We have broadcast any time that a ward member couldn't attend in person, which has been about 50 per cent of the time lately.

Quote

I need the Church, much more than it needs me. 

Based on personal experiences, I wholeheartedly disagree!

But yeah, I desperately need the Church.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Haha!

[bluebell]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Haha!

They aren't wrong!  

I have friends who live for those essential oils but who won't get the vaccine because it's not FDA approved.  Perfectly logical.

[Fether]

Do Masks work?

 

[Rain]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do Masks work?

 

So with this do you feel like doctors should stop or continue wearing masks in operating rooms?

Edit: not setting you up for a gotcha just in case you are wondering.  Just trying to understand your thinking.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Rain

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do Masks work?

 

My masks don't have the gap. So there!

[Fether]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

So with this do you feel like doctors should stop or continue wearing masks in operating rooms?

Edit: not setting you up for a gotcha just in case you are wondering.  Just trying to understand your thinking.

No idea. I have gone from hard anti-mask and anti Covid vaccine to teetering over the edge to the pro-mask and Covid vaccine side in the last month or so. Trying to find the truth and what is realistically expected. Everyone seems to be pushing a narrative of some sort without convincing evidence. My biggest drive is simply the fact that conservative rural areas are the biggest anti-mask/vaccine places and that is exactly how I would describe my entire life upbringing.

Is the purpose of the masks more for reducing the viral load when we do transmit the disease? Are people suggesting  it stops the virus entirely?

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My masks don't have the gap. So there!

The gap wasn’t the issue, it was the fact that despite wearing 5 masks, moisture still got through.

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

Are people suggesting  it stops the virus entirely?

i don't think anyone has suggested that.  It's a highly effective mitigation strategy along with washing your hands and social distancing.  Nothing, however, is a 100% guarantee.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Do Masks work?

 

Bryam Bridle became famous for his opposition to Covid vaccines.   He claims that they are toxic 😞

So much is wrong about this video! 

First problem I noticed was his claim that "the primary mode of transmission of COVID is through aerosols".  

The problem is that is false.

Quote

COVID-19 is primarily transmitted from person-to-person through respiratory droplets.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/non-us-settings/overview/index.html

Second.  It has long been known that masks are not incredibly effective at reducing aerosols.  But they can help some at reducing aerosols.  They also reduce how far those aerosols travel indoors.  Did you notice how close he had to get to fog up those glasses?  Did you notice how much longer it took him to fog up the glasses than without a mask?  No controls.  No meticulous study of aerosol spread by distance with or without masks.  No quantifying aerosol reduction.   None of that. With his credentials, he will no doubt cause much damage with lay people, but he is on the fringe of science and medicine.  If only credible scientific studies could be that easy!

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248099

Distancing combined with masking will greatly reduce the #1 mode of transmission - droplets.  It will also help reduce aerosol exposure, but not by nearly as much. 

Full context:

Quote

COVID-19 is primarily transmitted from person-to-person through respiratory droplets. These droplets are released when someone with COVID-19 sneezes, coughs, or talks. Infectious droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. A physical distance of at least 1 meter (3 ft) between persons is recommended by the World Health Organization (WHO) to avoid infection,¹ whereas CDC recommends maintaining a physical distance of at least 1.8 meters (6ft) between persons.  Respiratory droplets can land on hands, objects or surfaces around the person when they cough or talk, and people can then become infected with COVID-19 from touching hands, objects or surfaces with droplets and then touching their eyes, nose, or mouth. Recent data suggest that there can be transmission of COVID-19 through droplets of those with mild symptoms or those who do not feel ill². Current data do not support long range aerosol transmission of SARS-CoV-2, such as seen with measles or tuberculosis. Short-range inhalation of aerosols is a possibility for COVID-19, as with many respiratory pathogens. However, this cannot easily be distinguished from “droplet” transmission based on epidemiologic patterns. Short-range transmission is a possibility particularly in crowded medical wards and inadequately ventilated spaces³. Certain procedures in health facilities can generate fine aerosols and should be avoided whenever possible.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by pogi

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

The gap wasn’t the issue, it was the fact that despite wearing 5 masks, moisture still got through.

It gets through, and it traps, making it hard to breath, and function. One day when we are looking back, the CDC will have to admit, and own there first position concerning masks. The standard cloth masks, purchased daily in countless drug stores and department stores, are not the proper masks, to both stop and arrest the spread of COVID-19! The vaccine is what we need to be protected. Also those who have received the vaccine need not worry. The Delta Variant does not harm those who took the vaccine, if so it does not make the vaccinated very sick. However, the hysteria over masks, is hurting our children’s physical and mental health. This is all so very heartbreaking, and it may be years until we learn how much damage may have been afflicted over the last 2 years. Masks, are just the tip of this unseen iceberg. Just get vaccinated, and live again! 

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

It gets through, and it traps, making it hard to breath, and function. One day when we are looking back, the CDC will have to admit, and own there first position concerning masks. The standard cloth masks, purchased daily in countless drug stores and department stores, are not the proper masks, to both stop and arrest the spread of COVID-19! The vaccine is what we need to be protected. Also those who have received the vaccine need not worry. The Delta Variant does not harm those who took the vaccine, if so it does not make the vaccinated very sick. However, the hysteria over masks, is hurting our children’s physical and mental health. This is all so very heartbreaking, and it may be years until we learn how much damage may have been afflicted over the last 2 years. Masks, are just the tip of this unseen iceberg. Just get vaccinated, and live again! 

Masks do work to reduce transmission.  They are more effective with droplets (the primary mode of transmission) than aerosols.  Our prophet (a medical doctor himself) support and urges us to wear them.  You are right, vaccines should be prioritized.  You should rethink your statement about how vaccinated people need not worry.  Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus - that should worry all vaccinated people, especially considering that our hospitals are maxed out and our children can't get vaccinated yet, and there are many, many well intentioned but misguided Americans who are not vaccinated that could be severely impacted or die from infection (as we are currently seeing across America).   Masks do not hurt our children's physical and mental health - it is adults fighting about masks due to lies and misinformation that hurts our children's mental health.  Some people can have medical reasons not to wear a mask.  You may be one of those, I don't know, your doctor would have to give you guidance there.  The rest of us should stop fighting and listen to our prophets and medical consensus, and live again!  If you don't want to wear a mask, that is your choice, but please, please stop spreading false and misleading information online that is contrary to the prophets counsel and medical consensus.  That only exacerbates the fighting and adds to the hysteria.  Most of the hysteria I see over masks is from the anti-maskers.  Have you seen any public meetings? 

Edited August 17, 2021 by pogi

[Rain]

45 minutes ago, Fether said:

No idea. I have gone from hard anti-mask and anti Covid vaccine to teetering over the edge to the pro-mask and Covid vaccine side in the last month or so. Trying to find the truth and what is realistically expected. Everyone seems to be pushing a narrative of some sort without convincing evidence. My biggest drive is simply the fact that conservative rural areas are the biggest anti-mask/vaccine places and that is exactly how I would describe my entire life upbringing.

Thank you.   

Had you ever questioned doctors wearing masks before covid?

I wasn't raised rural, but did it was definitely conservative.  I love that you mention you are trying to find out the truth - I suspect I will be doing that throughout my life in one place or another. 

45 minutes ago, Fether said:

Is the purpose of the masks more for reducing the viral load when we do transmit the disease? Are people suggesting  it stops the virus entirely?

Yes - reducing.  I honestly don't know if anyone has said that it stops it entirely.   It just doesn't.   Just reduce it.  But sometimes that's just enough to make a difference.   

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

No idea. I have gone from hard anti-mask and anti Covid vaccine to teetering over the edge to the pro-mask and Covid vaccine side in the last month or so. Trying to find the truth and what is realistically expected. Everyone seems to be pushing a narrative of some sort without convincing evidence. My biggest drive is simply the fact that conservative rural areas are the biggest anti-mask/vaccine places and that is exactly how I would describe my entire life upbringing.

Is the purpose of the masks more for reducing the viral load when we do transmit the disease? Are people suggesting  it stops the virus entirely?

Thanks for being open minded! 

 

[bOObOO]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

No idea. I have gone from hard anti-mask and anti Covid vaccine to teetering over the edge to the pro-mask and Covid vaccine side in the last month or so. Trying to find the truth and what is realistically expected. Everyone seems to be pushing a narrative of some sort without convincing evidence.

The truth is there is a virus referred to as COVID-19 and that it makes most people very sick if they have not been vaccinated against it.  Very sick or possibly dead, and many, many people have died from being infected by the virus.

The truth regarding masks is that they help to prevent transmission of the virus by limiting how much the virus can enter the mouth and nose of people who wear a mask, with some masks designed to limit more virus particles than other masks.  Masks do not prevent the ones who wear them from touching their mouths or their noses or their eyes after touching something that has been contaminated by the virus, though, and even the best masks provide only limited protection, so masks are not foolproof. 

1 hour ago, Fether said:

My biggest drive is simply the fact that conservative rural areas are the biggest anti-mask/vaccine places and that is exactly how I would describe my entire life upbringing.

Big open spaces with a lot of fresh air movement and a lot of space between people are the safest places to be with regards to the virus.  Congested areas with a lot of people nearby breathing the same air are among the worst places to be.

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Is the purpose of the masks more for reducing the viral load when we do transmit the disease? Are people suggesting  it stops the virus entirely?

Yes.  Only the idiots or ignorant are suggesting a mask stops the virus entirely, or do not help at all.

[smac97]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:35 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

I quoted an article regarding low public trust in Dr. Fauci.  You responded by saying "Russell Nelson is not an effective messenger {either}."

Correct. President Nelson (a prophet seer and revelatory) is not able to convince unvaccinated members to vaccinate or mask. Neither is Fauci. It’s not the messenger. It’s the receiver. 

It seems like Pres. Nelson may well be an effective messenger after all:

Quote

Latter-day Saints may preach and sing about following their prophet, but last week’s statement by the faith’s top leaders urging members to wear masks and get vaccinated offered a glimpse of how seriously the faithful take that mantra.

In its strongest statement yet, the governing First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints asked members to take these measures to “limit the spread” of COVID-19 and its variants. They assured believers that the available vaccines are “safe and effective.”

President Russell M. Nelson, a former heart surgeon, and his two counselors advised members to “follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders.”

Though the presidency statement didn’t require that it be read aloud over the pulpit on Sunday, many Latter-day Saint bishops and stake (regional) presidents across the country and around the world did so. And many members have said on social media that the directions from their local lay leaders as well as congregational behavior shifted almost immediately.

The effect was “a pronounced, obvious change,” said Tim May of Vancouver, Wash. “Last week, we had one to two families masked. This week, every family but one was masked.”

The First Presidency’s Thursday message was read aloud, May said, along with “an aligned message from our stake president, a surgeon.”

...

In Russell Arben Clark’s Wichita, Kan., congregation, the bishop read the First Presidency letter over the pulpit and “a message from the stake president to the bishops, telling them that they were expected to lead by example. Then our bishop pointed out that everyone on the stand was wearing a mask, and said that if [anyone] was worried about the vaccine, [they shouldn’t] because he got vaccinated very early on, and he had no adverse reactions whatsoever.”

Some, including Clark, reported the number of those wearing masks shot up dramatically.

“Far more people wearing masks during sacrament meeting; not a lot (probably barely a third of the total), but that’s a big increase over previously,” Clark said. “Hardly inspiring, but I call it a win.”

The leaders’ stance “absolutely affected mask-wearing in the Olympic Park Ward in Park City,” Cole Capener wrote on Facebook. “Mask-wearing increased from less than 10% in recent weeks to over 80%.”

The caveats

Others reported that the statement was read, but followed with encouragement from local leaders to pray about masking and calling vaccinations a personal choice — points not mentioned in the First Presidency’s letter.

“My bishop … said he felt impressed to relay what the First Presidency said this week and proceeded to say they directed church members to think about it and make the right decisions for their families concerning vaccines. Some might choose to, some might not,” said Lehi resident David Kennedy. The bishop “was not wearing a mask and did not social distance.”

Still others sensed no impact from the leaders’ amped-up push.

“It didn’t seem to change a thing,” wrote Montanan Trish Murphy Hartman. “No letter was read and only visitors were wearing masks.”

Carol Lee Hawkins noted the same occurrence “from the heart of Utah County. No email. No reading over the pulpit and only 20% masks.”

In Houston, historian Benjamin Park was disappointed to see only “five out of 50 adults wearing masks in his ward this weekend, including none of the [three-member] bishopric. And no mention of the First Presidency statement.”

Jenny Smith of Stafford, Va., was pleased to see 100% of attendees wore face covering during the Sunday sacrament meeting but bothered that “no masking is happening at our youth activities.”

The “anti-mask bishopric member in our ward is holding youth activities in his home and seems to be using the ‘public’ wording from the [First Presidency] letter to excuse the lack of masking or social distancing, as the activities are held in a ‘private’ home,” Smith said. “I don’t have a child in the youth program anymore, but the lack of consistency regarding masking is causing a lot of pain for some families in my ward.”

Thanks,

-Smac