Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[carbon dioxide]

Drive carefully in Utah and try not to have a heart attack. ICU beds are pretty much all filled up.

[provoman]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many companies, including mine, are postponing Back to Office, and continuing travel restrictions and/or reinstituting mask mandates. It is so disheartening because it felt like we were able to turn a corner but instead decided to smash into the wall at full speed. I'm afraid the rift between the political extremes and vax/anti-vaxers is only going to get worse as blame continues to be leveled against the anti-vaxers. Blame is often counter-productive so I do my best not to blame anti-vaxers for the resurgence of Covid with the economic and human toll it is taking but deep inside I feel myself becoming more resentful. That won't end well so I'm hoping to stave off my indignation for as long as possible.

Curious, isn't the Delta variant from India? And the vaccine available do not protect from Delta, so shouldn't be too hard to not blame others.

[Raingirl]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many companies, including mine, are postponing Back to Office, and continuing travel restrictions and/or reinstituting mask mandates. It is so disheartening because it felt like we were able to turn a corner but instead decided to smash into the wall at full speed. I'm afraid the rift between the political extremes and vax/anti-vaxers is only going to get worse as blame continues to be leveled against the anti-vaxers. Blame is often counter-productive so I do my best not to blame anti-vaxers for the resurgence of Covid with the economic and human toll it is taking but deep inside I feel myself becoming more resentful. That won't end well so I'm hoping to stave off my indignation for as long as possible.

I am sort of holding my breath, wondering if there will be a last-minute scramble on my employer’s part to delay returning, but this is a university I’m talking about, and I’m having a very hard time imagining them going fully remote on classes again, unless mandated by the Governor. Although, we did go remote last year ahead of the order. 
 

I will continue to work remotely permanently. This was my boss’s suggestion due to my medical issues. I had been working part-time from home/ part-time in the office) prior to the pandemic. I am extremely fortunate that my job is completely doable on a remote basis. (There was a time during the pandemic when we were all furloughed to varying degrees) And I have an awesome boss. Our whole department will be working a schedule combining remote and in-office work. Not all supervisors are as flexible, nor - of course- is every job amenable to remote work. 

Oregon re-instituted mask mandates starting today, and my employer has not ever rescinded their mandate. The employees are grateful for all Covid safety measures as the return begins. 

[Raingirl]

12 minutes ago, provoman said:

Curious, isn't the Delta variant from India? And the vaccine available do not protect from Delta, so shouldn't be too hard to not blame others.

Current vaccines have shown effectiveness against the Delta variant, they also minimize the severity of the disease and reduce hospitalizations. The vast majority of Delta’s spread and hospitalizations is among the unvaccinated. 

This information is readily available and should be common knowledge. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

In addition to protecting physical life, there are quality of life considerations.

I don't know how we could get through a pandemic such as this without experiencing some suffering, whether it be from death, loss, illness, long term sequalae, and yes even from interventions.  You are right, it is impossible to quantify the suffering caused by intervention, but it is also impossible to quantify the suffering we have prevented via the interventions.   I have faith that our prophet made the right decision and has been inspired and carefully guided through these end-time plagues that have been prophesied about.  You can criticize him if you want, but I think he did the right thing and reduced suffering over-all in the eternal risk vs benefit analysis.     

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Early in this, people said, "Quit whining and sacrifice. This will be over soon, and we'll be back to normal (you were among these). There is literally no end now.

That seems a bit dramatic.  I am not aware of any shutdowns.  Hardly any mask mandates anywhere.  I don't feel like I am really sacrificing much of anything anymore.  Most people are pretty well back to normal.  Masks at church are not that big of an inconvenience considering the alternative risks.  We have all made sacrifices (some more than others) and God bless those who have sacrificed!  This is a mild inconvenience compared to what others have had to sacrifice.

You seem all too Pollyanna about what might have been if we didn't act.   Most very vulnerable people are vaccinated now, yet hospitals are STILL being overwhelmed (not by those considered very vulnerable either).  We didn't even have a vaccine at the time! 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[smac97]

This sort of sounds encouraging:

Quote

The First Presidency, the highest governing body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, issued a statement yesterday urging churchgoers to get the COVID-19 vaccine and to wear face masks during public meetings.

Vaccine opposition amongst Christian groups has been a feature of America's medical freedom debate for the past few months, with protesters drawing on the Bible and writing signs such as "the blood of Jesus is my vaccine" when opposing mandates. However, the historically pro-vaccine LDS church has remained largely out of the fray with 65 percent of members saying they accept vaccination, according to a report by PRRI and Interfaith Youth Corps.
...
Resistance against these mandates may very well be inevitable, yet Richard Ostler, a former LDS Bishop and host of the Listen, Learn and Love podcast, which promotes LGBTQ+ inclusion in the church, believes encouragement from leadership will be headed.

Ostler supports vaccination, he himself being vaccinated, and sees the LDS community as largely being followers of science. In an interview with Newsweek, he drew on Article of Faith 12 of the church which writes, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." He credits this tenet as a reason for leadership's embracing of the vaccine.

Still . . . 1 in 3 do not.

Quote

"We have always been a law-abiding people," Ostler told Newsweek. "We really value the principle that whatever country we're in, it's a worldwide church, that we obey the law of the land. So, that's one element of our culture that we really try to follow government."

Ostler said mask-wearing has not presented itself as an issue in his Salt Lake City congregation. However, he has noticed dissent amongst members of the larger Salt Lake City Mormon community. With the current two-thirds of the community accepting vaccination, he sees LDS member behavior as being in line with the First Presidency's encouragement. If the body were to strengthen its position though, he expects the church would see a larger rate of compliance.

"Sometimes people will culturally say, 'once the prophet has spoken that debate is over,'" Ostler told Newsweek. "If (a mandate) did indeed came out, which I don't think it will, the compliance rate of that would be extremely high."

I think so.  But I would prefer to see encouragement and voluntary compliance, rather than a mandate and kinda-sorta-mandatory compliance.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ginger Snaps]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

A lot of people "like" online church more than going to church (I hate it, myself). It's easier, has minimal commitment, etc. But the Moroni 6 things (the "why" for church), touching lives, etc. are out the window. 

 

 I recently moved from a ward that is still broadcasting church, even though they are back to meeting in person, mostly because they had people tuning in who hadn't been seen in the building in years.  HOWEVER, we also saw a large part of our more regularly attending members get bored with online church quickly during the shut-down.  Several of them stopped tuning in and just "did their own thing" at home, and some of those people were not so quick to come back when we started meeting in person again.  We also had members who refused to use Zoom. We were fortunate enough to have a set-up that employed the Church broadcast link, but we were using Zoom for things like RS and EQ because the broadcast could only be used in the chapel.  And even when we were back, I had two different relief society teachers (I was the counselor over education) flat out refuse to teach Relief Society *in person* until we stopped broadcasting it in any way.  We weren't even asking them to touch the technology. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ginger Snaps

[Calm]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think the conservative side is merely getting in on the same game and perhaps realizing that for all the time they felt self-righteous indignation about how the liberals didn't have enough faith or follow closely enough, under the right circumstance it really applies to them equally.

Most of the framing I am seeing is just pushing church leadership into the liberal/secular camp rather than any sense of ‘now it is happening to me’.

[rongo]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My father has been a bishop multiple times and he has told me he has no plan to return to in-person church. His testimony of the gospel hasn't changed (I don't think) but he views the role of the organized church differently. I don't think he's particularly unique in this. He does home church every week and enjoys it. The problem (according to some- including my mom) is that he enjoys it too much and dreads the alternative of return.

This encapsulates what a growing number are feeling now: sustaining of the keyholders, testimony in the Restoration, but lessening confidence that some/many moves by President Nelson/the Brethren are God's will. It's not apostasy, as in rejection of them, but it is an ala carte, case-by-case decision on a personal level with decisions (as you put it: picking and choosing how one follows Church leaders). I think this hasn't happened overnight, but the spark that lit the keg for some was the Church's handling of the shutdowns (I'm defining home church and the long hibernation of the Church, temples, and missionary program as a shutdown). 

I think this was facilitated by President Nelson's gleeful, breakneck pace of major changes. Many good and loyal people simply don't think all of them are divine will; rather, they seem to them to represent more President Nelson's "bucket list" (as Wendy Nelson put it --- paraphrasing --- he's wanted to make these changes for a long time, and now that he's the president, he can do it). So, when there is distrust of at least some changes, it's a lot easier to believe that he's speaking as a man with the Covid response. Particularly when their political orientation is counter to the trend in the Church. I think your observation about political shift in the Church has merit. I found it funny the other day when the Deseret News ran an editorial, sounding like special pleading, that it isn't liberal (there has been a noticeable shift for many), using fact-checker graphics (which aren't exactly a trusted source for skeptics). If you have to run an editorial insisting that you aren't ________, it's bound to make people wonder.  

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/7/18/22580691/the-deseret-news-doesnt-have-a-leftist-agenda-allsides-chart

I think you're correct that political orientation is part of the complicated mix. I don't think it's as simple as "see, their real religion is right wing politics, not the Restored gospel!" --- it's much more complicated than that. Many of these people have solid testimonies of the Restoration and the gospel. Many are also sad to see the eroding of tradition and precedent. Cue @Hamba Tuhan quoting Elder Bednar: The Church is going to totally change, such that it will be unrecognizable, and it will be the North American Saints who are the most upset about it. 

It also never ceases to amaze me that the people who insist the most that we don't believe our prophets are infallible --- demand that we follow without any thoughtful dissent, else they are careening into apostasy. If we truly believe that they aren't perfect and can make mistakes, then actually believing and being able to specify instances shouldn't be as nervously and knee-jerkedly rejected out of hand. 

Again, many of these people are never going to leave the Church, but their sadness will grow, and possibly their commitment. Definitely enthusiasm. 

ETA: Another case in point: BYU. We had a thread in the spring about BYU's liberalization (most here applauded it; I'm not a fan). My alumni magazine from the McKay School of Education has become extremely liberal (a recent cover article argued for no structure in the classroom --- what I call "free range" teaching --- so that non-white students don't get in trouble or score behind white students. It's definitely shifted from when I went there in the 90s). 

Look at especially the photo gallery at the end of this news release from BYU (especially the last two!). 

https://news.byu.edu/intellect/byu-study-finds-that-princess-culture-can-heal-toxic-masculinity-over-time

This shift is taking place in Church schools, Church organs, and the Church itself at the top. This delights some, but there is a real tsunami wave of discontent, enui, and apathy coming down the pipe from many traditional, stalwart members over these shifts. It's been mentioned in this thread that it's a course correction back to the center, but I think it goes much further than that.  My opinion. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by rongo

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Most of the framing I am seeing is just pushing church leadership into the liberal/secular camp rather than any sense of ‘now it is happening to me’.

That's not surprising since blaming the liberals is a tried and true tactic.

I think it requires a level of empathy to recognize that the discomfort "I" am now feeling has been felt by "others" before. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that many people don't possess that level of empathy and self-awareness     

But I still think that a shift from church leaders making "other people /liberals" uncomfortable to the church making "me /conservative faithful" uncomfortable is part of the root issue people are unhappy with. It's not just masks and vaccines. It is at least partially, IMO, "I thought you were on my side" sense of betrayal that is bubbling up and making people lose some trust.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

The damage we're inflicting on the rising generation with this perpetual non-normalcy (LDS and non-LDS) is incalculable. At first, people were indignant. "They can sacrifice a year of their (to that point short) lives so we can get out of this and have it be over. This tantrumed demand for instant gratification is selfish " Now it's two years, and counting, missing out on the opportunities and experiences that will be valuable to them.

And why is it two years? If there had been a full out commitment of all the community, that would have been one thing, but to be dragging one’s feet, making half hearted efforts if any at all and then blame those actually working at it for being wrong in their predictions (they weren’t as the condition of compliance always was attached), hypocrisy at its finest. 
 

Those that did struggle and worked at it even if they weren’t 100% onboard…I am very grateful to them, they have a right to be angry, but who they should be angry at is those who sabotaged others’ efforts, not those who were trying to protect through pushing masks and vaccines and social distancing. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Definition for "exhort" I found in the top result:

Yes, they do express concern for all of God's children who are not vaccinated, as do I.  Why do you think I spend so much time advocating for vaccination and masks? 

I know... it depends on which Thesaurus(es) you use. Not all synonyms are the same. To me, "urge" is a more "base" version of "exhort" as might be culled from here: https://wikidiff.com/exhortation/urge

Exhort:  incite to laudable deeds; incite that which is good or commendable; encourage; advise; counsel; admonish.

Urge: to press the mind or will; to ply with motives, arguments, persuasion, or importunity.

I see nothing wrong with the prophets doing either as the case requires, but their letter / e-mail uses "urge." I wonder what the reactions would be if they did use the word "exhort". I think they try to present their messages in as broadly-palatable way as possible, within the limits of being concise.

Beyond that, I think an individual "risk-benefit analysis for dummies" presented in a broadly-palatable way for mask/vaccine-resistant mindsets would have been developed by some interested party. Have you found any (I haven't)?

Our son lives in Utah (bottom half of the state vaccination rates nationally https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker ), and apparently there is a lot of push-back by members about this message from the First Presidency.

[pogi]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"the blood of Jesus is my vaccine"

Oh good, serpent handling on a whole new level!

Quote

Study suggests that the modern anti-vaccine movement is shaped by Christian nationalist ideology

https://www.psypost.org/2021/03/study-suggests-that-the-modern-anti-vaccine-movement-is-shaped-by-christian-nationalist-ideology-59954

I guess that helps explain the LDSfreedomforum (largely Christian nationalists, it seems) comments about the First Presidency letter. 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

And why is it two years? If there had been a full out commitment of all the community, that would have been one thing, but to be dragging one’s feet, making half hearted efforts if any at all and then blame those actually working at it for being wrong in their predictions (they weren’t as the condition of compliance always was attached), hypocrisy at its finest. 

I don't know. If we had just let it rip through in March 2020, beefing up temporary hospital capacity to save as many people as possible, wouldn't Alpha variant have been less able to mutate as quickly as the drag it out forever "flatten the curve" model we tried (shutdowns, masks, distancing)? Wouldn't the natural immunity approach have led to less mutating than the approach of prolonging it indefinitely? I understand that the intent was to keep demand from hitting the health care system all at once, but then when the curves were flattened, the drag it out measures were (and still are) left in indefinitely. I blame that as much as people reacting against the abnormality in society. 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Beyond that, I think an individual "risk-benefit analysis for dummies" presented in a broadly-palatable way for mask/vaccine-resistant mindsets would have been developed by some interested party. Have you found any (I haven't)?

I haven't.  Maybe I should author one.  Not that I think it will change any minds.  It seems their resistance is less about facts and more about ideology.  They would tear it apart in 2 seconds with their alternative facts. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Beyond that, I think an individual "risk-benefit analysis for dummies" presented in a broadly-palatable way for mask/vaccine-resistant mindsets would have been developed by some interested party. Have you found any (I haven't)?

 

As in likelihood of getting significantly sick or dying from the vaccine or having to wear a mask vs getting significantly sick or dying from different variants of Covid?  With the attendant medical cost and loss of work? Or do you have something else in mind?

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

And why is it two years? If there had been a full out commitment of all the community

I'm not sure the outcome would have been different. How many military enforced lockdowns have Australia and New Zealand had? And then, when it opens up a little and there is a case, back to lockdown. 

It's a virus. Total eradication isn't going to happen. 

Do you believe that Covid would be stamped out if vaccination rates had been 80% out of the gates? I don't. 

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, rongo said:

Do you believe that Covid would be stamped out if vaccination rates had been 80% out of the gates? I don't. 

Absolutely!  Reducing the transmissibility by 80% would have weakened this virus to almost nothing.  The vaccine was extremely effective against early strains.  Targeted isolation/quarantine measures would have stomped it out very quickly.  

Think of it like a forest fire (I really like that analogy), how long do you think it would have taken fire fighters to contain the Dixie fire if 80% (or 75% - counting for the 5% failure rate) of the fuel was covered in flame retardant and completely inflammable?  Days...maybe weeks?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

don't know. If we had just let it rip through in March 2020, beefing up temporary hospital capacity to save as many people as possible, wouldn't Alpha variant have been less able to mutate as quickly as the drag it out forever "flatten the curve" model we tried (shutdowns, masks, distancing)? Wouldn't the natural immunity approach have led to less mutating than the approach of prolonging it indefinitely? I understand that the intent was to keep demand from hitting the health care system all at once, but then when the curves were flattened, the drag it out measures were (and still are) left in indefinitely. I blame that as much as people reacting against the abnormality in society. 

The US does not exist in isolation. We cannot control mutation rates elsewhere that create variants that will find their way here eventually. We can control our own exposure rates with masks and social distancing as well as invest time and money into tracking cases and developing and then using vaccines.  We did one right as far as I can tell, developing vaccines which was imo a modern marvel, if not a miracle. The majority of serious issues occurring now would not be happening with a full out national commitment to using all the vaccines we have available to us, including increasing ease and incentives for lower income communities to get it. If only we had been able to full on commit to vaccinations.

The vast majority of people in the hospital now aren’t there because the vaccinated are transmitting the disease along with the vaccinated, but because they chose not to be vaccinated.

Even if we had to go back to masking and forget about the carnival/massive rallies/concerts style of partying for another year if we had been compliant in the first place, the lower risk of serious infections even with now higher transmission with Delta would not have created the issue of hospital overloading we are now seeing. Our medical people would likely have gotten a significant rest as well  not be so loaded down right now, leading to more shortages by causing so many to walk away. 

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, rongo said:

How many military enforced lockdowns have Australia and New Zealand had? And then, when it opens up a little and there is a case, back to lockdown. 

How many deaths and serious illnesses have they been having in comparison to us?

Deaths in Australia are at 948, population 25,000,000 compared to our over 620,000+ at a population  of a 328,000,000.  Being very loose with estimating, if the US had about the same rate, we would be at about 15,000 deaths.

So if the point was to slow down Covid, who do you think had a better approach?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

Yes, there is an economic cost to lockdowns, a major, massive cost.  But there is also a massive economic cost to illness and premature deaths, including families burdened with medical costs for years to come and possibly if having enduring damage such as to lungs, lower ability to pay those bills off.

Not sure where you could find decent data to show whether countries that had lockdowns and therefore far fewer medical costs lost more money overall than those that tried half compromises or little changes at this point. 
 

And it is still possible a variant will come up that the vaccines are useless against and we are back to square one,  but at least it wouldn’t be after a series of medical overloads that didn’t have to happen.

added:  I am not saying lockdowns are the best solution. From the couch, I would have chosen lockdowns originally only in areas showing certain levels of transmission originally and the areas most closely connected to them.  I would have ended them as soon as more easily maintained measures were in place. I would have, if I was God Emperor, used that time to set up extensive contact tracing and educational programs and to get the best kind of PP wear out to the public with mask mandates requiring use of the government issued or approved PP rather than allowing any style of home made cloth mask.  Would have set up alternative meal programs for kids home from school.  And I would have spot inspections of business with penalties for the owner if employees weren’t wearing them correctly.  Then I would open up as much as possible while pulling back some when surges appeared imminent. I would allow small meetings, especially outside, but the big jam packed events would be barred. So would be eating indoors in restaurants.  Once vaccines were available, I would make them mandatory unless medically or religiously exempted. If someone still chose to refuse vaccinations, they could, but would have to pay a monthly premium to offset the economic costs of their choice. 
 

And etc. Hopefully if I was God Emperor, I would have already managed to develop a decently cohesive and charitable community where few viewed masking as a hardship even if uncomfortable and where the actual hardships of social distancing and other limitations were mostly mitigated by the fact the community was emotionally and socially behind each other so there was little real isolation happening. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Calm

[ttribe]

The low take rates of the vaccine are directly responsible for the rise of deadlier variants.  By having millions of members of the population refuse the vaccine, they made themselves into two things: 1) vectors for introduction of the disease into more communities; and 2) walking petri dishes for mutation of the virus.  Thanks for that.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm not sure the outcome would have been different. How many military enforced lockdowns have Australia and New Zealand had? And then, when it opens up a little and there is a case, back to lockdown. 

It's a virus. Total eradication isn't going to happen. 

Do you believe that Covid would be stamped out if vaccination rates had been 80% out of the gates? I don't. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+rates+in+new+zealand&rlz=1CAHKDC_enUS915&sxsrf=ALeKk00O73cN4mHMMNZrW53pOD7522ArAw%3A1628895247307&ei=D_gWYYuSEo7btQa0uIUI&oq=covid+rates+in+new+zealand&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIFCAAQhgM6BAgjECc6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggIABCABBCxAzoICAAQsQMQgwFKBAhBGAFQtgVYuCtg4i1oAXAAeAOAAb8IiAGpMZIBDzEuMi42LjEuMS4zLjEuMZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjL1d3Ui6_yAhWObc0KHTRcAQEQ4dUDCA4&uact=5

Sorry for the long attachment. But please click on it and see what is in plain site, it speaks volumes. And have had 26 deaths compared to our 620 thousand. I'd be willing to wear a mask and get the vaccine, which I have, if it meant saving that many lives for however long it would take. 

I do understand that they've not got as many residents though. And I focus on the chart in the link. How at the beginning in New Zealand it was spiked super high back in Mar. 2020 but almost immediately it went back down and almost flat lined ever since. Not a yo yo like the USA.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, ttribe said:

The low take rates of the vaccine are directly responsible for the rise of deadlier variants.  By having millions of members of the population refuse the vaccine, they made themselves into two things: 1) vectors for introduction of the disease into more communities; and 2) walking petri dishes for mutation of the virus.  Thanks for that.

There are lots of countries who have not had the vaccines generally available yet. We shouldn’t assume that even if vaccinations in this country were almost 100% that would remove a significant portion of mutation risk, imo.  However, to me that means we should be working on more people getting vaccines, not giving up. 

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

There are lots of countries who have not had the vaccines generally available yet. We shouldn’t assume that even if vaccinations in this country were almost 100% that would remove a significant portion of mutation risk, imo.  However, to me that means we should be working on more people getting vaccines, not giving up. 

I'm not sure if I'm reading your comment correctly, but I wasn't saying the risk would be reduced to zero.  However, I'm not sure I'm on the same page as you relative to "significant."  If a variant hits a population with significant immunity, it's ability to further mutate is dramatically stemmed.  Initial studies are indicating substantially greater than non-zero resistance to Delta by existing vaccines; but Delta is now well-established and mutating again.  A large percentage of our population has done nothing to help stop the cycle.  I have no problem pointing that out to them.  I may be straying into hyperbole, but had the population behaved this way in 1955, we'd still be dealing with polio.  It's shameful, really.

[Calm]

I am just saying the US is less than 5% of the world’s population. In many ways we have massive control over what happens in the rest of the world compared to that 5%.   Virus mutations are not one of them.  Outside of providing other countries with vaccines, I don’t see how we can control virus mutations occuring in the rest of the world. This is a pandemic, not an American epidemic.  We are also not an island or a small country with easily controlled borders.  If a variant pops up elsewhere, eventually it will be seen arriving in the US…and which point we can do something about it.  I don’t think it is wise to focus too much on preventing variants by vaccination as a major driver as that could backfire when variants show up later.

We see a similar issue in countries that have managed in the past to drop rates to zero.  That does not mean they can go back to normal because the rest of the world is still incubating the disease like some people are acting like this was to be expected.
  That lockdowns would somehow be ‘one and done’ for any country.

But acting as if their lockdowns and restrictions are therefore meaningless in the long run because they are still having to deal with Covid popping up in their countries is a reasoning process that leaves me dumbfounded…as if all the lives and disruptions saved count for nothing.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Calm