Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is true but the Church as an organization is not blameless in the lack of trust many members are feeling. I believe trust in the church has eroded rapidly in the past decade, but since I'm one who experienced the eroded trust/faith, I feel it is largely justified.

My personal take is different. Top Church leadership is an always welcome but generally remote entity.  Nearly 100% of my interaction with the Church is via my local units. When I've had Stake and Ward leadership that were ambitious and willing to take risk, we had a broadly energized membership. Conversely, when local leaders were consistently timid, cautious or easily manipulated by overly-ambitious members, energized wasn't a good adjective to describe us.

Do I think church eroded in the last decade? I can't say because it doesn't matter - not when our local units are driven by visions of milquetoast.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Chum

[Gillebre]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is true but the Church as an organization is not blameless in the lack of trust many members are feeling. I believe trust in the church has eroded rapidly in the past decade, but since I'm one who experienced the eroded trust/faith, I feel it is largely justified.

IMO the church has tried, unsuccessfully, to walk the line between faith and politics and has failed pretty miserably. Combining that with the increase of information and even the acceptance by the church of documents and a narrative that undercut the traditional narrative so many of us had been taught our entire lives, a reduction in trust was natural. What is interesting is seeing the people who had been on the right side of the church's political/faith line, even if only marginally, are now rejecting the most modest attempts to reset in a more neutral path.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it many more times. EVERYONE picks and chooses how they follow church leaders. I think there is a very large group right now that is surprised to be publicly outed and NOT following in one particular regard. 

I feel like there is a critical element of agency and it goes along with what you said: every person must make a choice to extend their trust however they will, the benefit of the doubt, and in my mind also must actively resist Satan's influence in however it affects them, and all will face various consequences for how they choose to follow, or not follow. I'm just shocked at how quickly the covering has been torn away from barely concealed rebelliousness once their pet views are on the altar of sacrifice.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

You ASSume tooooo much. 

A family member told me their Bishop sent out something within minutes of the Letter.

To my knowledge my Bishop has not sent out anything.

 

None of those things answered Pogi's question. Is his question one you really don't want to answer?

[provoman]

Just now, Chum said:

None of those things answered Pogi's question. Is his question one you really don't want to answer?

pogi is often a unpleasant poster AND he often engages in "when did you stop beating your wife" arguements

So my answer is NUNYA about my mask or vax status.

However, the First Presidency did urge  wearing of masks in public meetings when social distancing is not possible.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gillebre said:

I spent some time last night and this morning reading all 13 pages of their replies to this topic over there. Yikes!

What did I walk into? As a curiosity can I ask your take on that forum? Is it known to be one that has issues with the Church and Prophet? Or is this craziness something new for them, if you know? If you aren't aware that's okay, but wanted to ask because there were only a handful of people that didn't seem to be in open rebellion or opposition to the Prophet.

There were already many who saw the Church in apostasy for many reasons, but it appears to me there are a number more who are turning their back on the Church now or who intended to only attend as a witness of the truth like Samuel or Abinadi going along those who claim belief but did not act in belief. 
 

I haven’t kept track of the forum enough to tell you a percentage of those changing to a more extreme position. 

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, provoman said:

So my answer is NUNYA about my mask or vax status

You seem to be saying you really, really don't want to answer his question. I totally understand.

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I feel like there is a critical element of agency and it goes along with what you said: every person must make a choice to extend their trust however they will, the benefit of the doubt, and in my mind also must actively resist Satan's influence in however it affects them, and all will face various consequences for how they choose to follow, or not follow. I'm just shocked at how quickly the covering has been torn away from barely concealed rebelliousness once their pet views are on the altar of sacrifice.

I partially agree BUT I really don't think this happened quickly. In other words, this isn't the only issue that is driving the response. It just happens to be the latest and perhaps the largest. The trust has been eroding for quite a while. This example just illustrates the gradual decline in a way that is more obvious for us to see.

[Gillebre]

Maybe it just feels sudden to me. I think it's been building for some time, and we haven't been challenged as a society or as a Church like this in recent memory, perhaps.

[carbon dioxide]

42 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My father has been a bishop multiple times and he has told me he has no plan to return to in-person church. His testimony of the gospel hasn't changed (I don't think) but he views the role of the organized church differently. I don't think he's particularly unique in this. He does home church every week and enjoys it. The problem (according to some- including my mom) is that he enjoys it too much and dreads the alternative of return.

I like the online church better. It is so much easier than to get the kids ready and being on time.   I still will go to in person church but my preference is online.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

Maybe it just feels sudden to me. I think it's been building for some time, and we haven't been challenged as a society or as a Church like this in recent memory, perhaps.

People need to feel needed and need to feel part of something larger.

When wards only interact with themselves, neither condition is well satisfied.

[Fether]

Is this not a good source? It’s a simplified data list from the CDC going over adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines

https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

The Church hibernating for a year and a half was not a good thing. 

Depends on how you look at it. 

Who knows how many lives/suffering it saved while the vaccine was unavailable.  That is why they did it after all.

That is a good thing, no? 

Yes, the church took a hit.  Perhaps it was meant to.  We know that the Lord is "sifting out the righteous".  We mourn for the loss of the less faithful, but how many of those who are not currently attending are never planning on coming back?  

It is better that we lose attendance through home church through a temporary hiatus during a pandemic than through lives lost. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I like the online church better. It is so much easier than to get the kids ready and being on time.   I still will go to in person church but my preference is online.

How do you meet new members? When we moved back in June 2020, half of the ward was brand new, but had moved during Covid (we were among this). Nobody knew them. Leadership is still trying to get to know them, and many people have sheepishly said, "We've been in the ward for a year, but we're only coming now." 

There is power in being able to introduce yourself to new people or visitors, ask where they're from, talk about them, etc. 

A lot of people "like" online church more than going to church (I hate it, myself). It's easier, has minimal commitment, etc. But the Moroni 6 things (the "why" for church), touching lives, etc. are out the window. 

It's a missionary work nightmare, too. "So, Ahmed, we've been talking with you here on Zoom for a few weeks. Don't forget, the link for Zoom church Sunday is _________. We'd like to introduce you to a member of the congregation; he should be joining our Zoom pretty soon . . . " You don't have "church" to bring them to, you have a Zoom link. There is a reason the sisters repeatedly asked if they could bring investigators to our home for sacrament meeting. We were always happy to have them, even on short notice (happened frequently, but we dressed up for church, anyway, so it wasn't a big deal). Everything you're teaching them about what church is like is hypothetical future, when we're not doing Zoom church. Despite what people frequently say about "we're teaching and baptizing more than ever before with smart phone missionary work," look at last year's baptisms vs. previous years (which had declined, too, but nowhere near the 100,000 drop-off). It's seeing the emperor with clothes. 

Nothing about Covid church was good for the Church or most of its members. 

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, provoman said:

To my knowledge my Bishop has not sent out anything.

And?  What does that mean to you? 

The First Presidency has spoken, who cares if a local bishop doesn't parrot what they have already said. 

[carbon dioxide]

People fixate too much on how many people die from COVID.  They ignore all the diverse medical issues that COVID does to people long term even if they survive.  Hundreds of thousands of people have survived COVID but they are not the same as before they got it.  Not to mention all the medical bills that they got for being in the ICU.   COVID overloads the hospitals. This has very negative impacts on everyone who needs medical services not related to COVID.  People die of heart attacks and other things simply because there was no room in the hospitals to accept them.  When the hospitals are full,  they are useless to you when you need it. 

I do see some good news coming.  Delta is going to spread fast.  A lot of people are going to get a scary education on the importance of masks and vaccinations.  It is easier to people to not care if old people are getting sick. When the kids start dropping, it becomes more serious even for these people.  Thousands of anti vax people are right now getting a good education on the importance of vaccines as they struggle in ICU across the US.  Medical experts are not their teachers.  The virus is doing the teaching itself.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

And?  What does that mean to you? 

The First Presidency has spoken, who cares if a local bishop doesn't parrot what they have already said. 

Yes, The First Presidency has spoken. Per the e-mail, they speak in terms of "we" -- which I take to be in behalf of the Church community as a whole. They "urge," and do not "exhort" or "mandate." They express a "sincere love and great concern for all of God's children," including those who resist this message due to desires, knowledge and attitudes that differ from the "we." 

[HappyJackWagon]

17 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

Maybe it just feels sudden to me. I think it's been building for some time, and we haven't been challenged as a society or as a Church like this in recent memory, perhaps.

And that's the thing. For some people it will feel sudden because they may have been on the "safe" side of the church's more conservative approach to politics and faith but now when they feel their safely conservative viewpoint being challenged it feels uncomfortable to them personally so they push back. It's natural.

People on the more liberal/progressive political line have felt uncomfortable for a very long time and have been selective about how/when/why they follow church leadership and there have been some very high profile individuals who have challenged the church. I think the conservative side is merely getting in on the same game and perhaps realizing that for all the time they felt self-righteous indignation about how the liberals didn't have enough faith or follow closely enough, under the right circumstance it really applies to them equally.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Depends on how you look at it. 

Who knows how many lives it saved while the vaccine was unavailable.  That is why they did it after all.

That is a good thing, no? 

Yes, the church took a hit.  Perhaps it was meant to.  We know that the Lord is "sifting out the righteous".  We mourn for the loss of the less faithful, but how many of those who are not currently attending are never planning on coming back?  

It is better that we lose attendance through home church than through lives lost. 

In addition to protecting physical life, there are quality of life considerations. I home taught a 94 year old woman in Gilbert who was devastated by the Covid shutdown. Church and interacting with people was her life. She (and many others I know) would rather live what they have of their lives (they've lived good, long lives) than spend the rest of it isolated and alone. Our friend's grandmother is also in her 90s (we're actually descended from different plural wives of the same man), and she told her granddaughter, "I'm in my 90s. If I die, I die. But I don't want to spend what time I have left not seeing you and wearing a mask." 

It isn't just the very old. There are people who have lost ground in their eternal progress because of the disruption to church and other things. The branches and districts abroad that relied on missionaries have been annihilated, and won't recover. I don't think saving physical life at all costs to the exclusion of all other considerations should be the sole factor. That's the same factor behind, "If it saves just one life, it's all worth it" or goals about total eradication or 100% guaranteed risk elimination. That is no kind of life at all, and it's what our children and youth are having shoved at them. Early in this, people said, "Quit whining and sacrifice. This will be over soon, and we'll be back to normal (you were among these). There is literally no end now. Schools and governments are going to be fighting about masks, "remote learning," restrictions on their lives and interests, etc. indefinitely. Year after year. There are going to be variants and an eternity of boosters or targeted vaccines, ad infinitum. 

The damage we're inflicting on the rising generation with this perpetual non-normalcy (LDS and non-LDS) is incalculable. At first, people were indignant. "They can sacrifice a year of their (to that point short) lives so we can get out of this and have it be over. This tantrumed demand for instant gratification is selfish " Now it's two years, and counting, missing out on the opportunities and experiences that will be valuable to them. At what point is it no longer selfish for them to want old normal (I hate the expression "the new normal")? Say this mask and vaccine-palooza goes on for many years. Do we just sacrifice multiple generations of the young? 

I think for others like me, it isn't as simple as "I don't want to wear a mask. I don't like it." It's much bigger than that. It's wanting normalcy for bigger reasons affecting future generations, the health of the Church, and the ability to continue to roll forth the stone. 

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

People fixate too much on how many people die from COVID.  They ignore all the diverse medical issues that COVID does to people long term even if they survive.  Hundreds of thousands of people have survived COVID but they are not the same as before they got it. 

What are the ratios (I don't think anyone knows, but I'd be interested in opinions) of how many got Covid and had no short or long term difficulties, vs. how many had significant problems ranging from chronic problems to death?

Many people (myself included) only know people who had it, had flu aches and a minor cough, and then were completely normal again (5 of 6 in my family. Our son in Norway still hasn't had it). I feel like there are vastly more of this "silent majority" than the smaller number with difficulties we are fixating on. I'm sure that people have lingering problems, but I'll bet the overwhelming majority have no more issues than they would from a cold or the flu. Obviously, physical health and age are the largest factors. 

[Gillebre]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And that's the thing. For some people it will feel sudden because they may have been on the "safe" side of the church's more conservative approach to politics and faith but now when they feel their safely conservative viewpoint being challenged it feels uncomfortable to them personally so they push back. It's natural.

People on the more liberal/progressive political line have felt uncomfortable for a very long time and have been selective about how/when/why they follow church leadership and there have been some very high profile individuals who have challenged the church. I think the conservative side is merely getting in on the same game and perhaps realizing that for all the time they felt self-righteous indignation about how the liberals didn't have enough faith or follow closely enough, under the right circumstance it really applies to them equally.

I just shared the exact same thought with my brother. Neither side of politics is safe from having their pet views challenged by the leadership of the Church with their perceived actions, or perceived lack of actions taken. All are being tested, stretched, and the Lord will refine His people until they are worthy of Zion, and embrace that holy culture of consecration. 

I've noticed at least in my own sphere, or maybe sensed, that there is a migration towards the middle of those who won't be deceived by extreme ideas on the right or the left. Who we associate with will have a gradual impact on us over time, and those who don't want to become either far left or far right seem to be, at least in my view and opinion, gravitating towards the middle/moderate side of things.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Gillebre

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, The First Presidency has spoken. Per the e-mail, they speak in terms of "we" -- which I take to be in behalf of the Church community as a whole. They "urge," and do not "exhort" or "mandate." They express a "sincere love and great concern for all of God's children," including those who resist this message due to desires, knowledge and attitudes that differ from the "we." 

Definition for "exhort" I found in the top result:

Quote

strongly encourage or urge (someone) to do something.

Yes, they do express concern for all of God's children who are not vaccinated, as do I.  Why do you think I spend so much time advocating for vaccination and masks? 

[Raingirl]

14 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

People fixate too much on how many people die from COVID.  They ignore all the diverse medical issues that COVID does to people long term even if they survive.  Hundreds of thousands of people have survived COVID but they are not the same as before they got it.  Not to mention all the medical bills that they got for being in the ICU.   COVID overloads the hospitals. This has very negative impacts on everyone who needs medical services not related to COVID.  People die of heart attacks and other things simply because there was no room in the hospitals to accept them.  When the hospitals are full,  they are useless to you when you need it. 

I do see some good news coming.  Delta is going to spread fast.  A lot of people are going to get a scary education on the importance of masks and vaccinations.  It is easier to people to not care if old people are getting sick. When the kids start dropping, it becomes more serious even for these people.  Thousands of anti vax people are right now getting a good education on the importance of vaccines as they struggle in ICU across the US.  Medical experts are not their teachers.  The virus is doing the teaching itself.

It’s being predicted here in Oregon that we will be short 400 - 500 hospital beds by Labor Day or thereabouts. As you mentioned, this will affect everyone needing medical care. As someone who was unable to access all of the medical care I have needed during the pandemic, I can imagine only too well the devastating impact this will have. 
 

On a side note, the timing of this surge happens at the same time many employers- including my own - are returning employees to the office for the first time. Rather ironic that it’s being deemed safe to open back up just as the highly contagious Delta variant surges. 

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I just shared the exact same thought with my brother. Neither side of politics is safe from having their pet views challenged by the leadership of the Church with their perceived actions, or perceived lack of actions taken. All are being tested, stretched, and the Lord will refine His people until they are worthy of Zion, and embrace that holy culture of consecration. 

I've noticed at least in my own sphere, or maybe sensed, that there is a migration towards the middle of those who won't be deceived by extreme ideas on the right or the left. Who we associate with will have a gradual impact on us over time, and those who don't want to become either far left or far right seem to be, at least in my view and opinion, gravitating towards the middle/moderate side of things.

Agree 100%

It has been very strange to watch the extreme political polarization amongst some of my loved ones. Ones I wouldn't have expected. Totally out of character. 

We recently had a family reunion and had to install a No POLITICS ban which made the event mostly tolerable  

The middle doesn't usually get a lot of respect but IMO there is a lot of value there.

[HappyJackWagon]

18 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It’s being predicted here in Oregon that we will be short 400 - 500 hospital beds by Labor Day or thereabouts. As you mentioned, this will affect everyone needing medical care. As someone who was unable to access all of the medical care I have needed during the pandemic, I can imagine only too well the devastating impact this will have. 
 

On a side note, the timing of this surge happens at the same time many employers- including my own - are returning employees to the office for the first time. Rather ironic that it’s being deemed safe to open back up just as the highly contagious Delta variant surges. 

Many companies, including mine, are postponing Back to Office, and continuing travel restrictions and/or reinstituting mask mandates. It is so disheartening because it felt like we were able to turn a corner but instead decided to smash into the wall at full speed. I'm afraid the rift between the political extremes and vax/anti-vaxers is only going to get worse as blame continues to be leveled against the anti-vaxers. Blame is often counter-productive so I do my best not to blame anti-vaxers for the resurgence of Covid with the economic and human toll it is taking but deep inside I feel myself becoming more resentful. That won't end well so I'm hoping to stave off my indignation for as long as possible.

[smac97]

Salt Lake County Council just reversed a mask mandate:

Quote

In a 6-3 party-line vote, the Salt Lake County Council votes to overturn the public health school mask order issued by county health director Dr. Angela Dunn. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issues a new call to its members to wear masks and get vaccinated. And the latest census figures cement Utah’s place as the fastest-growing state in the nation.

Thanks,

-Smac