Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[Bane]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes, as anyone who has ever fasted and prayed for anything knows, the answer is "no" or "I'm helping but not in the way you think I should".

 

Precisely.  Apparently, God wants this pandemic to continue to ravage the world, so why would I wear a mask in an effort to thwart His will?

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Bane said:

If his counsel (which I followed) to fast and pray for the pandemic to abate didn't have any noticeable effect in causing it to do so, why would I now follow his counsel to wear a mask?

I think the lived experiences and observations (outside of media and news reports) is a big factor with many. The "unrelenting pandemic" (from yesterday's letter) is not observed by many people, and as time goes on and they still aren't affected personally or in their circle of acquaintances (close or remote), they don't feel the urgency. 

Regarding the fast, President Nelson called two, didn't he, and weren't they like two weeks apart (or close to that)? One of the things he said in his conference prayer about Coronavirus was that nobody would die whose time hadn't come (to the best of my memory). That should be a comfort to those who have lost friends and family. 

[BlueDreams]

4 minutes ago, Bane said:

If his counsel (which I followed) to fast and pray for the pandemic to abate didn't have any noticeable effect in causing it to do so, why would I now follow his counsel to wear a mask?

We got a miracle called vaccines that came well before the vast majority were initially predicting. If every adult was vaccinated in the US who physically can, our case rate would be drastically lower and our hospitalizations literally a fraction of what they are right now. Just because some won't recognize a miracle when it comes in a less grandiose package ain't their problem. Any more than it was Elisha's problem that Namaan wasn't impressed with washing in a river for leprosy. Not every miracle is grandiose.  

 

With luv,

BD

[Rain]

51 minutes ago, Bane said:

If his counsel (which I followed) to fast and pray for the pandemic to abate didn't have any noticeable effect in causing it to do so, why would I now follow his counsel to wear a mask?

"God does notice us, and he watches over us. But it is usually through another person that he meets our needs."

Spencer W. Kimball

 

If He sends help to fix the situation and we refuse to open the door to them does that mean he did not answer our prayers or does that mean we refused to accept the blessings from those prayers?

 

President Nelson said that the vaccine was an answer to those prayers and many have refused it.  

 

Don't get me wrong.  I struggle with my prayers.  I currently struggle seeing they have been answered.  But always I have been of the mind of "if I pray for an answer, am I willing to hear and actually do what he asks for me to do?" 

 

Because if I pray about the pandemic, God gives me a vaccine and I refuse the vaccine, then it will be difficult to see the effect of those prayers.  

 

God stands at the door knocking.  Should we open it?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Rain

[Gillebre]

1 minute ago, Bane said:

Precisely.  Apparently, God wants this pandemic to continue to ravage the world, so why would I wear a mask in an effort to thwart His will?

Can I ask if you believe that the First Presidency are speaking on the Lord's behalf as they urge us to get vaccinated, and to wear masks when social distancing is impossible? If you don't believe their united voice constitutes as speaking for the Lord, what would you be willing to accept as authoritative and binding on us?

Of course we always have agency, but in at least some of the responses I'm seeing, it doesn't seem like there's anything the Prophet could say to convince some people to act so long as it runs contrary to their assumptions about the vaccine, our elected leaders, and medical professionals. It feels as though it wouldn't matter if God Himself appeared and urged us to get the vaccine, many would find some way to justify why His counsel doesn't apply to their situation. I fear our inflexibility and stubbornness are closing us off from the light of Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

My high level observation is that finding ways to ignore the Prophet and Apostles only sets us up to be deceived later when Satan tempts us to find more reasons to disregard what they've advised us to do, or what they've warned us to avoid. The slippery slope wherein we've already decided it was okay in X circumstance, it's not as big of a leap to ignore them again.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, Bane said:

If his counsel (which I followed) to fast and pray for the pandemic to abate didn't have any noticeable effect in causing it to do so, why would I now follow his counsel to wear a mask?

Is that a serious question? I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't sound like one.

The First Presidency asked for prayers and fasting to abate the pandemic. Vaccines were developed in record time and available for everyone to receive. A large part of the population decides not to get the vaccine or wear masks and now we're back in a mess. And you don't understand why that is?

Reminds me of the joke about the man caught on top of the roof during a flood. He prays to God. A boat comes by to help but he says he's waiting for God to save him. Then a helicopter comes but he says he's waiting for God. and then another boat comes. The man refuses because he's waiting for God. The flood waters rise and the man dies. After entering the pearly gates he asks God why he didn't help him. God chuckles. "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter".

This pandemic is sticking around for 1 obvious reason. People refuse to accept that there is a solution and won't turn their eyes to the brazen serpent. It's simple.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

16 minutes ago, rongo said:

A bigger issue in my observation is active, attending members drinking coffee and tea products and insisting that there is nothing wrong with it and that it doesn't violate the Word of Wisdom

Why is this a bigger issue for you? 

[bluebell]

Just now, Bane said:

Precisely.  Apparently, God wants this pandemic to continue to ravage the world, so why would I wear a mask in an effort to thwart His will?

Or, maybe God wants to see how much we really are willing to sacrifice for each other, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.  Maybe He wants us to learn from this pandemic for a while, but He also wants you or one of your loved ones not to die from it and that's why He wants you to wear a mask and get vaccinated.   Maybe this pandemic is a part of the upheaval that is prophesied to occur during the end times but masks and vaccinations are one way that God has designed to mitigate the suffering that will come with it.

Or any other million other possibilities.  

Really, saying that you won't follow Pres. Nelson's encouragement to wear a mask and get vaccinated because his encouragement to fast and pray didn't end the pandemic is like saying that, because someone told you to pray for help paying your dentist bill and no money showed up, there is no reason to follow their other encouragement to brush your teeth every day.

And then to respond that if you get cavities, that's only because that's what God wants to happen.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why is this a bigger issue for you? 

It's pretty blatant (and a TR question). Everyone knows that coffee and tea products are against the Word of Wisdom, regardless of temperature, because that's how it's been interpreted since the 1930s. I think it's more blatant than not wearing a mask to church or the temple, even though it is clear that's what the Brethren want. 

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

Fascinating! And (to me) encouraging . . .

I don't expect our stake to do anything, but then, it's the same stake president who didn't release and replace me as bishop until six months after I moved (with three months' advance notice that I was moving). Sending out an email would require writing an email (doing something). They're good men, but extremely slow to do anything or to act. I expect "business as usual" in our stake and its wards. Interesting to find your stake up in the Valley specifying "prayerfully and carefully mak[ing] their own decisions regarding the wearing of face masks." 

It's interesting to me that there were a spate of stake presidents and other prominent leaders with apparent advance notice of yesterday's brief letter (Wirthlin from Salt Lake, Eyring from BYUI, etc.). Our kids' stake president in Flagstaff also asked the college students in the student wards to mask up at church again two weeks ago, and the response last week was . . . no change in behavior. Our son and daughter said that it was business as usual the next week. 

I think in general that Church members are more ungovernable and unruly, which mirrors society at large from the top down (I'm thinking the Biden Administration extending evictions moratoriums, even though they fully expect it to be shot down by the Supreme Court. Schools/districts disobeying laws banning mandates. And many other examples). A bigger issue in my observation is active, attending members drinking coffee and tea products and insisting that there is nothing wrong with it and that it doesn't violate the Word of Wisdom (seminary students in particular have lots of Starbucks and Dutch Brother's iced coffee and tea drinks at seminary, and these are often otherwise active students). 

It appears to me that the Brethren choose to avoid showdowns with active members on issues that they may lose on, and masks at church and the temple appears to be one of those things. This remains true (for now), even with yesterday's letter.  Obviously the only negative enforcement "weapon" is removal of fellowship, but it's interesting to me that this state of things isn't even addressed or acknowledged (like it was after Utah cast the decisive vote ending Prohibition, which broke President Grant's heart). 

Interesting times, for sure, and they're only going to get more interesting. 

Can you even imagine the level of howling if there were actually a disciplinary consequence for not following the counsel? Are masks and vaccines more of a policy than a doctrine? Sure. But then so is the Word of Wisdom  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's pretty blatant (and a TR question). Everyone knows that coffee and tea products are against the Word of Wisdom, regardless of temperature, because that's how it's been interpreted since the 1930s. I think it's more blatant than not wearing a mask to church or the temple, even though it is clear that's what the Brethren want. 

So it’s the duration of time that’s important to you? Because the scripture is very ambiguous. So if the guidance to wear masks lasted 90 years then you’d put them on equal footing?

 

 From this exmo’s perspective, you are just as much a cafeteria Mormon as they are. FWIW. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So it’s the duration of time that’s important to you? Because the scripture is very ambiguous. So if the guidance to wear masks lasted 90 years then you’d put them on equal footing?

In fairness, I think Rongo is right that WoW issues are more blatant because it is important enough to leaders to make it an issue of worthiness and participation in the church. If vaccines and masks were to be taken with the same seriousness, I think they would achieve equal footing. But I think leaders are very aware that it would cause major upheaval amongst their most faithful and that's not a showdown they want. Even the WoW was implemented VERY slowly.

ETA- But IMO one of those issues reveals much more about a person than the other

Edited August 13, 2021 by HappyJackWagon

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Can you even imagine the level of howling if there were actually a disciplinary consequence for not following the counsel? Are masks and vaccines more of a policy than a doctrine? Sure. But then so is the Word of Wisdom  

If masks get added to the TR interview, or required for MP ordination, etc., then that would be different.

8 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So it’s the duration of time that’s important to you? Because the scripture is very ambiguous. So if the guidance to wear masks lasted 90 years then you’d put them on equal footing?

 From this exmo’s perspective, you are just as much a cafeteria Mormon as they are. FWIW. 

It's not just the long standing-ness, but the policy/doctrine's place in the Church. If masks are a hard and fast rule for 90 years, then Katie bar the door . . .  

 

[Raingirl]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Or, maybe God wants to see how much we really are willing to sacrifice for each other, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.  Maybe He wants us to learn from this pandemic for a while, but He also wants you or one of your loved ones not to die from it and that's why He wants you to wear a mask and get vaccinated.   Maybe this pandemic is a part of the upheaval that is prophesied to occur during the end times but masks and vaccinations are one way that God has designed to mitigate the suffering that will come with it.

Or any other million other possibilities.  

Really, saying that you won't follow Pres. Nelson's encouragement to wear a mask and get vaccinated because his encouragement to fast and pray didn't end the pandemic is like saying that, because someone told you to pray for help paying your dentist bill and no money showed up, there is no reason to follow their other encouragement to brush your teeth every day.

And then to respond that if you get cavities, that's only because that's what God wants to happen.

I’m out of rep points for the day, so consider this a big thumbs-up.  👍🏼

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

If masks get added to the TR interview, or required for MP ordination, etc., then that would be different.

It's not just the long standing-ness, but the policy/doctrine's place in the Church. If masks are a hard and fast rule for 90 years, then Katie bar the door . . .  

 

I always appreciate your perspective. Thanks -John

[Raingirl]

44 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Is that a serious question? I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't sound like one.

The First Presidency asked for prayers and fasting to abate the pandemic. Vaccines were developed in record time and available for everyone to receive. A large part of the population decides not to get the vaccine or wear masks and now we're back in a mess. And you don't understand why that is?

Reminds me of the joke about the man caught on top of the roof during a flood. He prays to God. A boat comes by to help but he says he's waiting for God to save him. Then a helicopter comes but he says he's waiting for God. and then another boat comes. The man refuses because he's waiting for God. The flood waters rise and the man dies. After entering the pearly gates he asks God why he didn't help him. God chuckles. "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter".

This pandemic is sticking around for 1 obvious reason. People refuse to accept that there is a solution and won't turn their eyes to the brazen serpent. It's simple.

Another thumbs-up since I’m out of points. 

I will never understand why anyone would refuse to take such easy steps as wearing a mask, in order to help prevent the suffering (including death) of others. 

[Bane]

49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Really, saying that you won't follow Pres. Nelson's encouragement to wear a mask and get vaccinated because his encouragement to fast and pray didn't end the pandemic is like saying that, because someone told you to pray for help paying your dentist bill and no money showed up, there is no reason to follow their other encouragement to brush your teeth every day.

Uh, no it isn't.  It isn't like that at all.  Not even remotely.

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Another thumbs-up since I’m out of points. 

I will never understand why anyone would refuse to take such easy steps as wearing a mask, in order to help prevent the suffering (including death) of others. 

One friend told me just last night that since wearing a mask infringes on her God-given rights the spirit has told her that her family should not be vaccinated or wear masks. It sounded to me like she was only concerned for herself and her family. Important considerations...to be sure. But also a bit selfish if those are the only considerations and she is willing to put other at risk.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bane said:

Precisely.  Apparently, God wants this pandemic to continue to ravage the world, so why would I wear a mask in an effort to thwart His will?

Based on that logic, it also appears that God doesn't want peace in the world (which people have fasted and prayed for for millennia), and therefore why should we try to promote peace and prevent suffering/conflict of any kind?  

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

If COVID were a fire we would be it's fuel.

That's actually a great analogy!

How do fire fighters fight forest fires?  They try to place distance between the fuel by creating fire lines and clearing brush, etc. (social distancing), and they also try to blanket the fuel with a retardant (masks).  None of these measure completely eliminate the spread of the fire, but it reduces the intensity and spread.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

One friend told me just last night that since wearing a mask infringes on her God-given rights the spirit has told her that her family should not be vaccinated or wear masks. It sounded to me like she was only concerned for herself and her family. Important considerations...to be sure. But also a bit selfish if those are the only considerations and she is willing to put other at risk.

Where can I read about this god-given right to walk around on both private and public property without a mask on during a pandemic?

I'm not a fan of mask mandates and I don't always wear a mask when I'm out, but it's not because I think it's some right that has God has granted me.  Where is that idea coming from??

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Where can I read about this god-given right to walk around on both private and public property without a mask on during a pandemic?

Here, I think GGR is code for 'stuff I want at the expense of others'.

[provoman]

12 hours ago, Raingirl said:

It’s baffling to me that President Nelson- a prophet and a physician- is pleading with members to help save lives by doing something as small and simple as wearing a mask, but some members are basically flipping him (and everyone else) off, and saying it’s an inconvenience. Or crying about their “freedom”.  

Under what circumstances did the First Presidency "urge" wearing of masks? 
 

Quote

we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible.

I think too many have read this letter too fast and with confirmation bias. Too many seem to expect that come Sunday, every Ward will require masks; which is not the case. A ward could require social distancing and not "urge" the wearing of masks.  A Stake leadership could even say "Yes the State mandates mask wearing inside, but the State has exempted religious gatherings; however, we are social distancing."

Hopefully the application and implementation of the urging in the letter plays out well.  As of right now, I think many people are disappointed because they have relied on confirmation bias.

Edited August 13, 2021 by provoman

[HappyJackWagon]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Where can I read about this god-given right to walk around on both private and public property without a mask on during a pandemic?

I'm not a fan of mask mandates and I don't always wear a mask when I'm out, but it's not because I think it's some right that has God has granted me.  Where is that idea coming from??

I'm pretty sure I saw a meme with a George Washington quote stating that the constitution prohibits the government from requiring us to get vaccines or wear masks.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

One of the things he said in his conference prayer about Coronavirus was that nobody would die whose time hadn't come (to the best of my memory). That should be a comfort to those who have lost friends and family. 

Can you show a source for that?   That sounds more like a prophecy than a prayer, and doesn't sound legitimate to me.  It takes responsibility off of people to be responsible for their own lives and reckless decisions and can potentially lead people to say "I am not going to get vaccinated, or take any preventative measures because the Lord will protect me if it is not my time to go".   That is nonsense!  If the Lord throws you a rope (vaccines - "a literal God send") and you don't grab it, he ain't gonna save you!