Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[ttribe]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

This just in from Governor Ducey: School mask mandates are "toothless, unenforceable, and won't hold up in court."

https://www.abc15.com/news/coronavirus/gov-duceys-office-mask-mandates-toothless-unenforceable-and-will-not-hold-up-in-court

Maybe he's wiser than I give him credit for, and he's taking the short-term apparent loss by appearing to be defied and flouted in order to win the long-term (like an umpire patiently getting dirt kicked on him before sending the coach to the showers). 

I hope that he's right about not holding up in court, but I have questions about "toothless and unenforceable." If, for example, my kids at college refuse to wear a required mask, can't the schools kick them out of school or impose other sanctions (until the law is enforced --- I would think that having the law fully behind you would help eventually, but probably not in the moment)? 

What about someone in Tucson or Phoenix who refuses to wear a mask to high school --- what could the school actually do to them? Worst case scenario, hypothetically, call the police for removal for trespassing or the standby "Class 6 felony --- disturbing the operation of an educational facility?"

We couldn't be in a better situation as far as not being forced to wear a mask and be vaccinated, but I'm curious what the ultimate logical extension of "mandates" is or will be. 

Aren't city and county mandates also limited by "only" misdemeanor trespass arrests, worst case? 

Ducey is a fool who is subordinating people's health and welfare to his political ambitions.  I am openly embarrassed I voted for the man twice.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Can you show a source for that?   That sounds more like a prophecy than a prayer, and doesn't sound legitimate to me.  It takes responsibility off of people to be responsible for their own lives and reckless decisions and can potentially lead people to say "I am not going to get vaccinated, or take any preventative measures because the Lord will protect me if it is not my time to go".   That is nonsense!  If the Lord throws you a rope (vaccines - "a literal God send") and you don't grab it, he ain't gonna save you! 

I live near an Amish community. The do not mask or get vaccines. One of their prominent members apostatized from the Amish but still lived in the community and ran a store etc. He died from Covid and the rest of the Amish said it was God's punishment. It was his time because of his lack of faith.

In one store I saw a sign that read "Faith is our vaccination". That philosophy is prevalent throughout Christianity.

[provoman]

Nothing from my ward as to any changes this coming Sunday - currently all rows open, mask not "required" (that is we can enter the building and chapel without a mask or with a mask and the Bishop has essentially said "let others be"), sacrament passed down a row person to person.

[provoman]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Where can I read about this god-given right to walk around on both private and public property without a mask on during a pandemic?

I'm not a fan of mask mandates and I don't always wear a mask when I'm out, but it's not because I think it's some right that has God has granted me.  Where is that idea coming from??

Sorry, when I read your comment, this came to mind, though I readily accept context matters. I could see some misapplication with it.

2 Nephi 2:26

And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, ... to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

Edited August 13, 2021 by provoman

[ttribe]

7 hours ago, BCSpace said:

 

Actually, most of us who aren't worried about COVID understand that even the CDC reports on their COVID-19 Mortality Overview page (in the fine print) that only 5% or fewer of the reported COVID deaths are "of" COVID as opposed to "with" COVID. That makes the already miniscule death rate even smaller and nothing to worry about assuming they can even pin a rate down. We are dumbfounded that the corporate and social media would collude so much to suppress information, even scientific information from reliable sources, about the ineffectiveness of masking, social distancing, the vaccines and the effectiveness of other treatments. Such censorship only lends credence to the notion of tyranny and oppression.  The doctrine and scripture of the Church itself is against such things. C.f. Alma 30:7 for example.

We understand that President Nelson was a surgeon and a medical researcher of no small consequence in the past.  But the Church recently put a premium on using the right sources and I think Nelson hasn't had the time to see that many once reliable sources of news, information, and even science from years past are now corrupted. I'm quite sure the First Presidency prayed about it and I believe they believe they received an answer.  However, and I know it's hard for some people to understand, a prophet can be fallible and still be a prophet, even a good one. I have no such qualms and such does not present a stumbling block to my faith.  Even so, considering that the statement also says...

“We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders,”

...I don't think I'm in conflict with the First Presidency at all because I am indeed following "the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders". They're just not necessarily someone else's preferred experts and leaders.

In a similar vein, I think the Church has gotten so good at walking a fine line between sides on highly politicized issues that statements like this amount to equivocation.  Besides "which experts and leaders?" we might also ask "which policies?" or "which immigrants" etc. etc. I think the Church needs to stand for something and risk offending some of it's members. By not doing so, it loses much power and influence.

I know, I know.  Criticizing Church leaders, steadying the ark, and all that. But it's what I believe and I have no problem expressing these things to my local and regional Church leaders. There are quite a few who agree.

 

This is LDSFreedom Forum nonsense.  I suspect you'll find a more welcoming crowd over there.

[HappyJackWagon]

It will be interesting if wards go back to mandated masks. In my area these mandates were not well received and attendance was abysmal. 

I had very faithful family members tell me they would not go as long as masks were required. And they didn't. The mandate was lifted and they returned.

IMO- as long as people are given the "out" of not attending while remaining "active" with current TR, people will opt out of church. Especially if they are given the choice to merely stay home and do their own sacrament service. I see many of the faithful becoming more reticent about participation in organized church. Then again, if no mask is required, they'll be there.

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I live near an Amish community. The do not mask or get vaccines. One of their prominent members apostatized from the Amish but still lived in the community and ran a store etc. He died from Covid and the rest of the Amish said it was God's punishment. It was his time because of his lack of faith.

In one store I saw a sign that read "Faith is our vaccination". That philosophy is prevalent throughout Christianity.

Yes, that philosophy is alive and well in our own faith too. 

After praying, "she was convinced that the faith based decision to keep the family unvaccinated was right..."  This is a sad story.  Now, after her perfectly healthy and young (under 65) husband is clinging on to life with 5 chest tubes and a collapsed lung.  She was blinded by "lies".   Her regret and anger is thick.  "I do believe that it is really hard to get an answer when the noise around you is so loud".   "Noise she says came from bogus online studies and so called experts that skewed her view of the disease." 

https://www.ksl.com/article/50219844/utah-family-shares-regret-over-not-getting-covid-19-vaccine-because-of-fear-and-lies

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, provoman said:

Nothing from my ward as to any changes this coming Sunday - currently all rows open, mask not "required" (that is we can enter the building and chapel without a mask or with a mask and the Bishop has essentially said "let others be"), sacrament passed down a row person to person.

Does that somehow make you feel like you are justified in not wearing a mask (it sounds like social distancing wont be possible)?  The prophet did not call for a mandate.  He simply urged us with his counsel to wear a mask as indicated.  Must you be mandated in all things before you will obey?

Edited August 13, 2021 by pogi

[Gillebre]

34 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is LDSFreedom Forum nonsense.  I suspect you'll find a more welcoming crowd over there.

I spent some time last night and this morning reading all 13 pages of their replies to this topic over there. Yikes!

What did I walk into? As a curiosity can I ask your take on that forum? Is it known to be one that has issues with the Church and Prophet? Or is this craziness something new for them, if you know? If you aren't aware that's okay, but wanted to ask because there were only a handful of people that didn't seem to be in open rebellion or opposition to the Prophet.

[rongo]

41 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Ducey is a fool who is subordinating people's health and welfare to his political ambitions.  I am openly embarrassed I voted for the man twice.

Nobody is happy with him, that's for sure. He covets a senatorship or the presidency, and he's sorely mistaken on his potential for that. His handling of Covid hasn't displayed any leadership (for either side). 

Not enforcing the law should please one side, but he's hoping the courts will uphold it. I have my doubts on that score. 

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It will be interesting if wards go back to mandated masks. In my area these mandates were not well received and attendance was abysmal. 

I had very faithful family members tell me they would not go as long as masks were required. And they didn't. The mandate was lifted and they returned.

IMO- as long as people are given the "out" of not attending while remaining "active" with current TR, people will opt out of church. Especially if they are given the choice to merely stay home and do their own sacrament service. I see many of the faithful becoming more reticent about participation in organized church. Then again, if no mask is required, they'll be there.

I am curious, are you talking about mandates instigated by your ward or health department?  It would surprise me if a ward required masks.

I am grateful for the "out" for opposite reasons - no masks/distancing at church.  I don't think non-attendance because masks are required was the intended reason for the "out". 

 

[rongo]

45 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It will be interesting if wards go back to mandated masks. In my area these mandates were not well received and attendance was abysmal. 

I think the Brethren are well aware that permanent and generational damage to the Church is possible with their handling of this. That's why their statements support one side's concern, but action leaves room for the other. 

45 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It will be interesting if wards go back to mandated masks. In my area these mandates were not well received and attendance was abysmal. 

I had very faithful family members tell me they would not go as long as masks were required. And they didn't. The mandate was lifted and they returned.

IMO- as long as people are given the "out" of not attending while remaining "active" with current TR, people will opt out of church. Especially if they are given the choice to merely stay home and do their own sacrament service. I see many of the faithful becoming more reticent about participation in organized church. Then again, if no mask is required, they'll be there.

There are two problems. The first is that the yo-yoing between abysmal attendance, and back to church, and back again will slough off many members who wouldn't otherwise have been inclined to drop off. They really need to not have any more disruptions to church, and I think they know that. Zoom church is not a suitable replacement for person-to-person socialization and worship. Most hate it with a passion (some here have expressed that they love home church and wish it be that forever more, but this forum is a self-selected microcosm that isn't representative of the Church as a whole. The reality is that this has killed branches and districts, and many wards as well). 

The second problem is that the year and a half church shutdown whetted some appetites for less church and more time away from church, and these attitudes remain even when people have returned. Commitment and reliability are suffering. "Ministering" was non-existent, even pre-Covid, and Covid killed it off completely. Service in callings largely continues the "shutdown feel." My wife is in a new YW presidency; they (and the advisors) all come to church sparingly, and my wife has been to ward council more than the president, who constantly tells her that she isn't feeling well or won't be able to make it. The only other reliable is the wife of my former second counselor --- the young 20s and 30s women (and their husbands) are functionally inactive, but they do attend occasionally. I'm seeing this in other wards I'm familiar with (my dad is on a Gilbert high council, my sister is a Gilbert RS president, and my wife's brother is in a West Jordan high council. I also have compared notes with other friends, acquaintances, and others, and the picture is brutal).

I think the Church emerges from this permanently transformed, and hamstrung by what its young adult - middle aged members are or aren't willing to do. I think it's part of the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled, but it still saddens me. There are a lot fewer willing to kill in "the killing of the willing." 

ETA: it is for this reason that I don't think they're going to authorize indefinite home sacrament. Many "active" families simply won't come back, and a big part of the reason for the Church (Moroni 6, etc.) is social, communal worship, not family. We also had very spiritual, meaningful family services during this, but the Church itself took a massive hit, and many people who otherwise would have been in better shape, spiritually, have had shipwreck during this. The Church hibernating for a year and a half was not a good thing. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by rongo

[bluebell]

50 minutes ago, provoman said:

2 Nephi 2:26

And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, ... to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

They probably do use this one to support that argument, but I think if they do it's because they didn't read the whole verse.

The underlined part is equally applicable, which would mean that people have a God-given freedom not to follow mask mandates, but then they must accept the punishment for doing so.  They are free to choose but not free from the consequences of that choice.

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm pretty sure I saw a meme with a George Washington quote stating that the constitution prohibits the government from requiring us to get vaccines or wear masks.  

Given some of the memes I've seen lately, I completely believe that you did see a meme that said that.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I spent some time last night and this morning reading all 13 pages of their replies to this topic over there. Yikes!

What did I walk into? As a curiosity can I ask your take on that forum? Is it known to be one that has issues with the Church and Prophet? Or is this craziness something new for them, if you know? If you aren't aware that's okay, but wanted to ask because there were only a handful of people that didn't seem to be in open rebellion or opposition to the Prophet.

It was my understanding that the Freedom forum was pro LDS.

[Gillebre]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It was my understanding that the Freedom forum was pro LDS.

Thank you for taking a moment to respond! That just blows my mind. It really felt like a dive into the deep end of 'the church has gone apostate, the Prophet never receives real revelation anymore, they are in league with big pharma and the government, the Lord has allowed evil men to mislead His church, where is our Moroni to lead us against the kingmen?'

Funny how we just studied the parable of the wheat and the tares and how the Lord gives as much time as possible for us to grow and progress before the harvest comes. 

It feels like our culture of outrage is removing from many the ability to extend trust, even as a child trusts their parent. All that's left is frustration and anger now that people can no longer pretend to what they claimed to believe before. "Oh if called upon I would give up everything to build Zion in the last days...but I won't give up my self-will and pride, I will NEVER wear a mask, NEVER get that vaccine, nothing the Prophet can say will change that."

By refusing to be humble and give obedience in the small and simple things, I think we inadvertently disqualify ourselves from the greater blessings we tell ourselves will be ours someday.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Gillebre

[Chum]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

"she was convinced that the faith based decision to keep the family unvaccinated was right..."  This is a sad story.  Now, after her perfectly healthy and young (under 65) husband is clinging on to life with 5 chest tubes and a collapsed lung

1 hour ago, pogi said:

She was blinded by "lies".   Her regret and anger is thick.  "I do believe that it is really hard to get an answer when the noise around you is so loud".

1 hour ago, pogi said:

"Noise she says came from bogus online studies and so called experts that skewed her view of the disease." 

• This is so true it's nearly physics

• I want to repost her quotes every 10 minutes.

• She all but calls out (Dr Senator spreading mask misinfo)  by name

Edited August 13, 2021 by Chum

[ttribe]

33 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I spent some time last night and this morning reading all 13 pages of their replies to this topic over there. Yikes!

What did I walk into? As a curiosity can I ask your take on that forum? Is it known to be one that has issues with the Church and Prophet? Or is this craziness something new for them, if you know? If you aren't aware that's okay, but wanted to ask because there were only a handful of people that didn't seem to be in open rebellion or opposition to the Prophet.

 

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It was my understanding that the Freedom forum was pro LDS.

I've always considered LDS Freedom Forum to be more of an entertaining curiosity to watch people bend church teachings to match their political worldview.  That being said, I agree with Tacenda that it is generally very pro-LDS.  That particular thread strikes me as a significant departure from the norm.  In my opinion, it shows that the real religion of those people is not the LDS Church, it's U.S.-centric right-wing politics.  Clearly, we see which one wins when they come in conflict.

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I've always considered LDS Freedom Forum to be more of an entertaining curiosity to watch people bend church teachings to match their political worldview. 

In my ward we call this Sunday.

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

In my ward we call this Sunday.

I haven't attended in a number of years.  Perhaps I should go this Sunday just to watch the fireworks?

[Chum]

Just now, ttribe said:

I haven't attended in a number of years.  Perhaps I should go this Sunday just to watch the fireworks?

It's not 3rd hour funeral potatoes but at least it's something.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am curious, are you talking about mandates instigated by your ward or health department?  It would surprise me if a ward required masks.

I am grateful for the "out" for opposite reasons - no masks/distancing at church.  I don't think non-attendance because masks are required was the intended reason for the "out". 

 

Where I live the only mandates were from church. Nothing from the health department or county/city.

I agree that the "out" wasn't designed for people refusing to get vaccinated or wear masks, but alas, here we are 

[HappyJackWagon]

57 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think the Brethren are well aware that permanent and generational damage to the Church is possible with their handling of this. That's why their statements support one side's concern, but action leaves room for the other. 

There are two problems. The first is that the yo-yoing between abysmal attendance, and back to church, and back again will slough off many members who wouldn't otherwise have been inclined to drop off. They really need to not have any more disruptions to church, and I think they know that. Zoom church is not a suitable replacement for person-to-person socialization and worship. Most hate it with a passion (some here have expressed that they love home church and wish it be that forever more, but this forum is a self-selected microcosm that isn't representative of the Church as a whole. The reality is that this has killed branches and districts, and many wards as well). 

The second problem is that the year and a half church shutdown whetted some appetites for less church and more time away from church, and these attitudes remain even when people have returned. Commitment and reliability are suffering. "Ministering" was non-existent, even pre-Covid, and Covid killed it off completely. Service in callings largely continues the "shutdown feel." My wife is in a new YW presidency; they (and the advisors) all come to church sparingly, and my wife has been to ward council more than the president, who constantly tells her that she isn't feeling well or won't be able to make it. The only other reliable is the wife of my former second counselor --- the young 20s and 30s women (and their husbands) are functionally inactive, but they do attend occasionally. I'm seeing this in other wards I'm familiar with (my dad is on a Gilbert high council, my sister is a Gilbert RS president, and my wife's brother is in a West Jordan high council. I also have compared notes with other friends, acquaintances, and others, and the picture is brutal).

I think the Church emerges from this permanently transformed, and hamstrung by what its young adult - middle aged members are or aren't willing to do. I think it's part of the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled, but it still saddens me. There are a lot fewer willing to kill in "the killing of the willing." 

ETA: it is for this reason that I don't think they're going to authorize indefinite home sacrament. Many "active" families simply won't come back, and a big part of the reason for the Church (Moroni 6, etc.) is social, communal worship, not family. We also had very spiritual, meaningful family services during this, but the Church itself took a massive hit, and many people who otherwise would have been in better shape, spiritually, have had shipwreck during this. The Church hibernating for a year and a half was not a good thing. 

My father has been a bishop multiple times and he has told me he has no plan to return to in-person church. His testimony of the gospel hasn't changed (I don't think) but he views the role of the organized church differently. I don't think he's particularly unique in this. He does home church every week and enjoys it. The problem (according to some- including my mom) is that he enjoys it too much and dreads the alternative of return.

[HappyJackWagon]

49 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

Thank you for taking a moment to respond! That just blows my mind. It really felt like a dive into the deep end of 'the church has gone apostate, the Prophet never receives real revelation anymore, they are in league with big pharma and the government, the Lord has allowed evil men to mislead His church, where is our Moroni to lead us against the kingmen?'

Funny how we just studied the parable of the wheat and the tares and how the Lord gives as much time as possible for us to grow and progress before the harvest comes. 

It feels like our culture of outrage is removing from many the ability to extend trust, even as a child trusts their parent. All that's left is frustration and anger now that people can no longer pretend to what they claimed to believe before. "Oh if called upon I would give up everything to build Zion in the last days...but I won't give up my self-will and pride, I will NEVER wear a mask, NEVER get that vaccine, nothing the Prophet can say will change that."

By refusing to be humble and give obedience in the small and simple things, I think we inadvertently disqualify ourselves from the greater blessings we tell ourselves will be ours someday.

This is true but the Church as an organization is not blameless in the lack of trust many members are feeling. I believe trust in the church has eroded rapidly in the past decade, but since I'm one who experienced the eroded trust/faith, I feel it is largely justified.

IMO the church has tried, unsuccessfully, to walk the line between faith and politics and has failed pretty miserably. Combining that with the increase of information and even the acceptance by the church of documents and a narrative that undercut the traditional narrative so many of us had been taught our entire lives, a reduction in trust was natural. What is interesting is seeing the people who had been on the right side of the church's political/faith line, even if only marginally, are now rejecting the most modest attempts to reset in a more neutral path.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it many more times. EVERYONE picks and chooses how they follow church leaders. I think there is a very large group right now that is surprised to be publicly outed and NOT following in one particular regard. 

[provoman]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Does that somehow make you feel like you are justified in not wearing a mask (it sounds like social distancing wont be possible)?  The prophet did not call for a mandate.  He simply urged us with his counsel to wear a mask as indicated.  Must you be mandated in all things before you will obey?

You ASSume tooooo much. 

A family member told me their Bishop sent out something within minutes of the Letter.

To my knowledge my Bishop has not sent out anything.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by provoman