'If Ye Love Me'

[RichYoungRuler]

 

Anonymous poll

Edited March 13, 2020 by RichYoungRuler

[Ahab]

You provided no way to judge whether or not those people loved the winner, so the question would still remain.  Do they really love me?

Our Lord did give us a way to know whether or not we or other people truly love him, though, and that is by seeing if we do what he commands us to do.  If we do, we love him, and if we don't do as he commands, then we really don't love him, even if we say we do.

[The Nehor]

(In deadpan voice)

Oh wow. This is deeply intriguing question that I now eagerly answer because it will lead to an interesting discussion. It is definitely not the vague ramblings of a dimwit trying to hamfistedly trick us into accepting his theology with a hackneyed ruse that was cliche way back in the 80s.

[rpn]

Those aren't the only two choices.

But "loving you" would NOT be part of anything I'd pick, unless maybe the person had been on your doorstop for other reasons within the same week.

[The Mean Farmer]

The first in line is Irwin R. Schister.   An acquaintance of yours that has come to visit at least once a year for nearly your entire life.

 

He goes by 'IRiS'. 

When he is done at your door there isn't much left.

 

Your question is moot.

 

Thanks for playing.

Edited March 13, 2020 by The Mean Farmer

[bluebell]

I'm not answering the poll for two reasons.  1) it doesn't seem like it's in good faith and 2) there is no way it can used as an analogy for anything related to our beliefs because it illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding of them (which has been repeatedly pointed out to the OP but which he continues to ignore).  

 

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not answering the poll for two reasons.  1) it doesn't seem like it's in good faith and 2) there is no way it can used as an analogy for anything related to our beliefs because it illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding of them (which has been repeatedly pointed out to the OP but which he continues to ignore).  

 

I noticed he changed the answers to his poll, too, after I had already answered by choosing the first option which was: "Do they love me?   Now the first option is: "They love you and want nothing from you."  I would not have chosen either of those answers.

 

 

[JAHS]

     👎👎

[Kenngo1969]

Oh, a "gotcha" game, the rough equivalent of a "have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife-yet" question!  I love those!

[InCognitus]

John 14:21:  "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:23-24:  "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

John 15:9-10:  "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

John 15:14  "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."
 

[Bob Crockett]

I personally find that participation in a state lottery to be ethically offensive.   

1.  It is gambling.  

2.  The state should not be in the business of promoting gambling.  No state should do that.  

3  Lotteries afflict the poorest segment of society.

4.  About 50% of lottery money goes to the promoter, a gambling exercise.

5.  Lottery promoters engage in extensive lobbying to keep legalized gambling out of the state.  There's a lot of evidence that promoters engage in bribery and corruption to keep or expand their franchise, much like waste haulers once the government says waste hauling is a government exercise.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Bob Crockett

[Avatar4321]

Follow the prophet and you won’t be gambling so you don’t need to worry about this scenario.

instead love others with the time and resources you have

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Anonymous poll

It seems to me that predestination is much like a lottery.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It seems to me that predestination is much like a lottery.

How do we know if we've won or lost?  Do we wait until the Judgment, whereupon He opens a trap door or welcomes us through the Pearly Gates?

[pogi]

21 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

 

Anonymous poll

Then there were those kids who only started to “believe” in you and “love” you once you had something to offer them, but wouldn’t really put forth any effort to prove their love.  They wouldn’t serve you or do anything you asked.  They were in it for the money, but wouldn’t really make any effort.

[LoudmouthMormon]

 

Quote

Suppose you were the single ticket winner of the largest lottery ever - you've won billions. The next morning, you awaken to a line of people at your front door claiming to be friends and distant relatives and they are here to help you in any way they can because they love you.

Easy answer.  I let in the ones who do what my Dad tells them to do. 

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Again, dude, do you even Bible?

 

 

 

[Meadowchik]

Never, ever, ever, go public.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

Easy answer.  I let in the ones who do what my Dad tells them to do. 

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Again, dude, do you even Bible?

 

 

 

One of the biggest issues I have with many Evangelicals is they insist that conscientious striving to keep the commandments of God will save no one, but that the keeping of the commandments of God will follow as a natural consequence of being redeemed from the fallen state and becoming new creatures by the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. Yet how many of these supposedly ‘redeemed’ and ‘sanctified’ people are there who are actually living the kinds of holy, obedient lives that we are assured will quite naturally follow in the wake of being saved? 

Take the author of the op of this thread as an example. He’s a sarcastic and mean spirited individual who actually thinks he’s going to convert committed Latter-Day Saints to his way of thinking by thinly veiled ridicule and contrivance.
 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by teddyaware

[MustardSeed]

Please consider a new hobby. 

[pogi]

21 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One of the biggest issues I have with many Evangelicals is they insist that conscientious striving to keep the commandments of God will save no one, but that the keeping of the commandments of God will follow as a natural consequence of being redeemed from the fallen state and becoming new creatures by the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. Yet how many of these supposedly ‘redeemed’ and ‘sanctified’ people are there who are actually living the kinds of holy, obedient lives that we are assured will quite naturally follow in the wake of being saved? 

Another issue I have is how many accuse us of obeying for selfish reasons - to be saved.  But I wonder how many evangelicals would believe in Jesus if he didn’t offer them salvation for their belief.

How many believers would answer option “a” to his question above?  Probably all hope for something from Him.  That is the point of Him offering it after all.

It seems to me that they brag about their inheritance and snobbishly rub it in our faces more than they talk of Christ.

Edited March 15, 2020 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/14/2020 at 3:59 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

How do we know if we've won or lost?  Do we wait until the Judgment, whereupon He opens a trap door or welcomes us through the Pearly Gates?

As it has been explained to me, you find out you are chosen or not here on earth and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Kenngo1969]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As it has been explained to me, you find out you are chosen or not here on earth and there is nothing you can do about it.

Hmmm.  I wonder how that's supposed to work.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hmmm.  I wonder how that's supposed to work.

A while back there were a couple of very well-informed and energetic Calvinists here. Dr. James White and a fellow Pole, something-ski...can't remember his name. First hame might have been Paul, or else he quoted Paul a lot. From what I understand, they adhere to the TULIP* principles to one extent or another, or a modification thereof. I would really like to have a Calvinist come aboard. There were some interesting discussions. RichYoungRulerhas  shown a few signs he leans this way, but he has ignored several questions about him being a Calvinist (Reformed Protestant).

Basically, we are all condemned to hell, but God saves whom he wills. You are either saved or you are damned. You discover you are saved through the workings of the Spirit, but I'm not certain how that happens. Nothing you do can influence Him in any way. It is His sovereign will. In fact, if you try to influence Him, you offend Him. If you don't think that is fair,  then you oppose His will. If you fall away, that means you were not saved in the first place. I would really like to have a Calvinist come aboard. There were some spirited and  interesting discussions.

*From Wikipedia

Quote

The central assertion of these points is that God saves every person upon whom he has mercy, and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or inability of humans.

• "Total depravity", also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved (the term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be). This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin. While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.
• "Unconditional election" asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
• "Limited atonement", also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."
• "Irresistible grace", also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ." This is not to deny the fact that the Spirit's outward call (through the proclamation of the Gospel) can be, and often is, rejected by sinners; rather, it is that inward call which cannot be rejected.
• "Perseverance of the saints" (also known as "perseverance of God with the saints" and "preservation of the believing") (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with (1 John 2:19), or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened (Hebrews 12:5–11) and will repent (1 John 3:6–9).

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

Paul was a good man. One of the few Calvinists that was informed and committed to his own faith, not afraid to recognize what was to others the harshness, and yet never came across to me as arrogant or condescending.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68204-theologically-uninformed-evangelicals-and-lds-beliefs/?do=findComment&comment=1209669610

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:58 AM, Meadowchik said:

Never, ever, ever, go public.

Easier said than done. Most lotteries want to announce winners to drum up hope that others can win. It is hard to hide.

If you ever feel like playing the lottery I heartily recommend this piece which has been posted in various places all over the internet:

Warning: Some profanity

https://gist.github.com/1RedOne/20c55b6cf7f27f7ef783aefd4214e771