Netflix- messiah

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It sounds like the movie is more a modern portrayal of what it would be like if Jesus waiting until our day to come, and less a portrayal of the second coming of Christ.  Am I understanding that correctly?  

I think it kind of leaves it open to different cultural perspectives. For many believing Muslims and Christians, he is Jesus returned, the Messiah.  We actually have that belief in common - that is something I learned about Islam, they too believe that Jesus will return to destroy the anti-Christ in the last days.  Their prophecies of the second coming, which are different from ours obviously, play into the script.  I think they do a really good job at portraying different perspectives, and it is fascinating to watch it all unfold. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by pogi

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It sounds like the movie is more a modern portrayal of what it would be like if Jesus waiting until our day to come, and less a portrayal of the second coming of Christ.  Am I understanding that correctly?  

Yeah, but it kind of depends on the person's personal religious perspective.

[california boy]

I started watching it last night.  Found it very though provoking.  One of the things that hit me is that it is not a portrayal of what everyone is expecting the Second Coming to be like.   People had this expectation of what they thought the coming of Christ should be like the first time He came and completely missed the opportunity to hear His words.  In the series, many dismiss Him and brand him a charlatan this time around as well.

I also like that the Messiah isn't doing what would be easy for Him to prove who He is.  He doesn't go around healing everyone that comes to Him.  At least that is where I am in the series (I think about 4 or 5 episodes).   For me, part of the appeal is that it asks the question if you can recognize the good and wisdom the Messiah is giving over the hyped up expectation of how you think Christ should return to the earth.  It is a complexed series that, for me, requires a lot of real thought, even personal thought, about what my. expectations are, and how I would react.  

There is no identification of what faith Christ represents.  There is identification of what faiths think who Christ should be.  He doesn't magically make it easy for those who believe in Him, nor does He use His powers to punish those that don't believe in Him.

 

[Duncan]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'll have to watch it.  Hubby and I started watching some sitcom from the late 1990s that takes place in Scotland and is about two old widowers.  It's hilarious but the funniest part is that I can't understand 3/4 of what they say, even though they are speaking English!

Please do! yeah the English is hard to get but I think that's part of the lure, at least for us here on this side of the pond! Derry Girls is set in the 90's, it's like  "The Facts of Life" but set in Ireland and better then "The Facts of Life" 😶

[rpn]

If it were really an LDS president, she would know that he wasn't actually Jesus Christ, because she'd see that signs were missing, that he wasn't using his organized church,  and his people were way past what he was doing in the series, when it is the judgment and Second Coming (which btw, the scriptures say will be pretty dramatic such that no one misunderstands, if I recall correctly).

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Um... no.

The President is more focused on the political implications and what the messiah is asking him to do.

But I think that's part of what is fascinating. This messiah's emergence doesn't really fit the Mormon version, or the evangelical version, or the Jewish version, or the muslim version of what would be expected of a Messiah. So everyone has to grapple with how he doesn't quite meet their expectations. I suspect it was similar in Jesus' day.

Hmmm. I think Ed Decker and Dave Hunt's scenario is more realistic....

Quote

The Mormon "Zion" fits into an emerging pattern of increasing occult 
activity leading to a one-world government that could well prepare for 
the fulfillment of biblical prophecies concerning Antichrist. To 
understand it properly, the "Zion" kingdom must be viewed in the 
broader context of the planned Mormon takeover of the world. This is the 
real "key," the secret hope Mormons cling to, and the basis for storing one 
year's supply of food, guns, and ammunition....

There is a disquieting statement in Mormonism: "When the 
leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done." To me, 
democracy can't thrive in that climate. 

They [Mormon politicians] don't have to be called to 
Church headquarters for political instruction. They know 
what they're supposed to do. 

That's why non-Mormons can only look toward the 
Mormon Church and wonder: "What is Big Brother doing to 
me today?" 

While the election of a Mormon U.S.President seems unlikely, it is 
highly probable under the present swing toward conventional morality 
and conservatism that a Mormon could one day become a Republican 
Vice-Presidential nominee. With the power, wealth, wide influence, 
numerous highly placed Mormons, and large voting block under their 
virtual control, The Brethren have a great deal to offer a Republican 
Presidential candidate. Let's assume that a Mormon Vice-Presidential 
candidate is on the winning ticket, and thereafter the President dies in 
office or is assassinated, causing the Mormon to succeed him as President 
of the United States. 

There is every reason to believe that the new President would 
immediately begin to gather around him increasing numbers of zealous 
Temple Mormons in strategic places at the highest levels of government. 
A crisis similar to the one which Mormon prophecies "foretold" occurs, 
in which millions of Mormons with their year's supply of food, guns, and 
ammunition play a key role. It would be a time of excitement and zealous 
effort by the "Saints" to fulfill Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's 
"prophecy": 

The time will come when the destiny of the nation will 
hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and 
save it from the threatened destruction. 

Now this would be an interesting plot!

Edited January 7, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[strappinglad]

To those who find shows with an Irish or Scottish or heavy accent troublesome, I suggest using ' settings ' to see if you can add English subtitles. while not all shows provide them, they are REALLY helpful. 

[The Nehor]

Too busy watching “Lost in Space” and struggling not to make the obvious Monty Python joke in this thread.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

..........................................

The treatment of the Church and its members in The Expanse also seemed to be lacking.  Maidservant noted: "The Expanse. Mormons in space. (Amazon). Not the main plot, but the Mormon space temple and the pioneer art persist through the rest of the seasons (after the main situation in season 1). Caricatured and gotten wrong, lol, but I still like it. I mean, Mormons in space! We are obviously durable culture! Ha ha."

.....................................................

Glen A. Larson already gave us Mormons in space with his Battlestar Galactica.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

If it were really an LDS president, she would know that he wasn't actually Jesus Christ, because she'd see that signs were missing, that he wasn't using his organized church,  and his people were way past what he was doing in the series, when it is the judgment and Second Coming (which btw, the scriptures say will be pretty dramatic such that no one misunderstands, if I recall correctly).

Funny.  This is exactly why so many Jews, especially the church leaders rejected Christ the first time He came.  They failed to see and hear what Christ was actually doing, and relied more on what they though He should be doing.

Some of this is a part of this series.  The Muslins keep pointing out that the Messiah is not quoting scripture exactly as they think it should be quoted.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I once had a dream, in the dream that made me think of these things, it was about someone who was a Latter-day Saint, who was (a term I chose), “An unlikely Seer”. As a result, of his knowing what was going to come to pass, he soon gave up on telling anyone, anything! But, it was too late, those who found he knew of the future, wanted more. So he became the enemy of first his family, then those who knew him, because he would not tell more. Then when the Government, and Governments of the World got wind, he could indeed give prophecies, and would no longer do so, he became their enemy for not telling them anymore of the future. Then, although a member in good standing, and even though he never claimed to be a “Prophet, Seer, or Revelator”, he was then labeled an apostate, for having ever used the gift, without Church permission, or ever telling anyone of the future, and was excommunicated. 
 

Sadly, the only way the “Messiah”, can ever come to this world, will be from the heavens, witnessed by the entire world, surrounded by the “hosts of Heaven”. If not, no matter his miracles, his revelations, his gifts, or any other thing, he will become the enemy of all the world, be it secular, governmental, or religious. They will do as they always have done, seek out his destruction, as mankind has always done to the Messiah, and all the Prophets who he has ever sent. Even in the last days, when the two great Prophets of old come before the Messiah, it has already been foretold in scripture, that the world will seek to kill them, but they will only appear dead for a few days, before they begin to lay waste many of the unrighteousness, until Jesus Christ comes to lay waste to all the wicked. If not, the entire world would seek to lay waste to Christ and his angels! This is why, only the righteous can remain, those with, “pure hearts and pure intent”, or they would all seek to kill the Messiah, and anyone he calls, even if trying to do so leads to instant death, the next “in-pure hearted”,  individual world pick up the weapon to seek to kill again. Although scripture tells us the Messiah will first come to the Church, before coming from the heavens,  members who believe themselves to be righteous, will still reject him, and wonder why he did not appear to them? Why they were not a part of the 144,000 Priesthood holders who we called to see him? The instant comparison to the brethren who were chosen will begin, then “breakaway sects”, etc, etc, etc. Such is and always be the human condition, a reason that at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, Satan will be “loosed again for a season”, just as happened in the Book of Mormon, after Jesus Christ came after his resurrection. The more things change, the more they stay the same, to quote scripture, “there is nothing new under the sun”. Sorry for the long post, please forgive my errors, spelling, punctuation, and grammar, as I am sure they are copious, or should I say,  legion!  

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There is a new series on Netflix called Messiah. It's essentially a modern take on what it might be like if a Messiah figure came on the scene in today's world. Even though this figure does nothing dangerous or even inappropriate, the level of fear generated because of the numbers of people who begin following him get the attention of the CIA, Mossad, etc. It's really quite fascinating to see the depiction of both faith and fear generated after this Messiah performs miracles, and it strikes me as a fairly accurate portrayal of the different types of human responses we might expect to see. It's a fairly intense/suspenseful show and there is some language. But it is fascinating.

On top of the general concept of a Messiah figure into today's geo-political landscape, there is an LDS President of the United States who wrestles with the politics and religious elements of the situation. At one point the President is speaking to this rogue Messiah, incredulous at what he is being asked to do, and the messiah asks him "Do you not believe in the coming of One Mighty and Strong?"  He gets the President to think about more than just the politics.

Not only does it make me stop and think about how I might respond to a modern Messiah, but the political fear generated helps me appreciate a little bit more what it must have been like for the religious and political leaders of Jesus' day.

Has anyone else seen this? Thoughts?

Just started it tonight. But i’m liking it so far. It seems really well done.

[HappyJackWagon]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Just started it tonight. But i’m liking it so far. It seems really well done.

I finished it last night. They did manage to work one silly love scene into the series, but it was brief.

No Spoilers: but it ends with many unanswered questions and great possibilities for a 2nd season.

[bluebell]

I watched the first one last night.  I'm not sold on it yet but I'll keep going.  It's hard for me to think of the Messiah as someone who would physically push people over or lead people away and let them be hungry, but I'm open to episode 2 showing a more plausible side (in my opinion) of the main character.  

[HappyJackWagon]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I watched the first one last night.  I'm not sold on it yet but I'll keep going.  It's hard for me to think of the Messiah as someone who would physically push people over or lead people away and let them be hungry, but I'm open to episode 2 showing a more plausible side (in my opinion) of the main character.  

Challenging our own assumptions and beliefs about what a messiah should look like, what he should say, or do, or not do is part of the fun of the show, in my opinion.

But it's easy for me to imagine Jesus walking and people just starting to line up behind him and follow, not knowing where they are going or why. And did Jesus solve everyone's problems? Not really. In some ways he was very radical and probably did cause some trouble for those in power, and even his followers who had to suffer real life consequences of discipleship.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Challenging our own assumptions and beliefs about what a messiah should look like, what he should say, or do, or not do is part of the fun of the show, in my opinion.

But it's easy for me to imagine Jesus walking and people just starting to line up behind him and follow, not knowing where they are going or why. And did Jesus solve everyone's problems? Not really. In some ways he was very radical and probably did cause some trouble for those in power, and even his followers who had to suffer real life consequences of discipleship.

Yeah, there were very few people who just kind of mildly approved of Jesus. He was adored, hated, feared, or was an object to be exploited for personal gain and in some cases they had more than one of these at a time.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I watched the first one last night.  I'm not sold on it yet but I'll keep going.  It's hard for me to think of the Messiah as someone who would physically push people over or lead people away and let them be hungry, but I'm open to episode 2 showing a more plausible side (in my opinion) of the main character.  

He never actually calls himself or claims to be the Messiah.  Whenever people ask him who he is, he answers in a question, "who do you think I am?"  I think that is the point of the show, to keep you guessing.  It shows seeming miracles, then offers possible explanations.  For example, in the sand storm it is claimed he preached in it for 30 days without food or water, then the friend says something like "at least that is what is claimed".  With the healing of the child that is shot, they leave room for potential fraud in that no shots are seen fired on video.  With every miracle, it seems they leave just enough room for doubt to question what and who he is.  I think the show is playing on how delicate human perceptions can be, and questioning the often blurry line for some between true faith vs unskeptical-cool-aide-drinking-suckers, and how do you know the difference?  I don't know how the plot will play out, but it is entirely possible that he is nothing more than a charlatan in the end, with the show having a strong atheistic theme, making all those who believed in him (including viewers) to be nothing more than cool-aide drinking suckers.  Of course the way to distinguish is through the Spirit, a critical element of discernment that they fail to address in the show.  But it is fun to watch none the less. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by pogi

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Challenging our own assumptions and beliefs about what a messiah should look like, what he should say, or do, or not do is part of the fun of the show, in my opinion.

But it's easy for me to imagine Jesus walking and people just starting to line up behind him and follow, not knowing where they are going or why. And did Jesus solve everyone's problems? Not really. In some ways he was very radical and probably did cause some trouble for those in power, and even his followers who had to suffer real life consequences of discipleship.

There are some things that I don't believe need to be challenged though, such as the idea that Christ wouldn't physically push people around that he was annoyed with, or that Christ doesn't care about people's needs.   He does not solve everyone's problems but He does show love and concern.  He cries with people, He serves them.  He doesn't ignore their suffering, even when He does not take it away.

But I know it was just the first episode and things that look one way might turn out to be another as the show progresses.  I'm trying to remember that this show is ultimately for entertainment and isn't trying to teach truth, nor is it capable of really doing so.

Speaking to the idea that we need to challenge our assumptions about God however, I think that that is a very interesting and good idea. It's one of the best parts of the series in my opinion.  But, it's portrayal of how the Messiah will manifest Himself, and who He will be, should also be challenged, in my opinion.     

 

   

[Jeanne]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have a friend, who teaches for BYU, who loved Messiah.  She also loved 2 Popes.  I haven't gotten around to seeing either of them yet but Messiah looks interesting.  

My biggest problem with shows like these is that I struggle to get passed the religious parts that they usually get wrong (which seems to be inevitable when people who don't usually believe in God or have any personal experience with the religion in question try to make a movie about it from a faithful--or even once faithful now doubting--point of view).  It becomes too aggravating for me.  Like watching a movie about math where they teach that 2+2=5.

Does this movie do better with that?

I really enjoyed the Two Popes...it was a great movie and portrayed real feelings as humans not just men of God. 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

He never actually calls himself or claims to be the Messiah.  Whenever people ask him who he is, he answers in a question, "who do you think I am?"  I think that is the point of the show, to keep you guessing.  It shows seeming miracles, then offers possible explanations.  For example, in the sand storm it is claimed he preached in it for 30 days without food or water, then the friend says something like "at least that is what is claimed".  With the healing of the child that is shot, they leave room for potential fraud in that no shots are seen fired on video.  With every miracle, it seems they leave just enough room for doubt to question what and who he is.  I think the show is playing on how delicate human perceptions can be, and questioning the often blurry line for some between true faith vs unskeptical-cool-aide-drinking-suckers, and how do you know the difference?  I don't know how the plot will play out, but it is entirely possible that he is nothing more than a charlatan in the end, with the show having a strong atheistic theme, making all those who believed in him (including viewers) to be nothing more than cool-aide drinking suckers.  Of course the way to distinguish is through the Spirit, a critical element of discernment that they fail to address in the show.  But it is fun to watch none the less. 

I think that's a good point.  

We have a lot of experience in our culture with people convincing themselves that someone was Christ returned, despite that person challenging all or most of their assumptions of what and who Christ would be when He came back.  In the end, all of them have turned out to have been mislead.  

It'll be interesting to see where this series takes us. Does challenging our expectations, and accepting someone who doesn't fit them, always bring us closer to the truth?  Or, does it make it easier for us to be deceived?  I don't know the answer to that (I doubt there is a simple answer), and I don't expect to get one from a t.v. show, but it'll be fun to see how the t.v. show handles it.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I really enjoyed the Two Popes...it was a great movie and portrayed real feelings as humans not just men of God. 

I'll add it to my watchlist.  

[katherine the great]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I watched the first one last night.  I'm not sold on it yet but I'll keep going.  It's hard for me to think of the Messiah as someone who would physically push people over or lead people away and let them be hungry, but I'm open to episode 2 showing a more plausible side (in my opinion) of the main character.  

Yah. This messiah is very into selecting people carefully, letting them solve their own problems and separating the wheat from the chaff. I loved this show. Lots of unanswered questions though so I hope there's a second season.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

There are some things that I don't believe need to be challenged though, such as the idea that Christ wouldn't physically push people around that he was annoyed with, or that Christ doesn't care about people's needs.   He does not solve everyone's problems but He does show love and concern.  He cries with people, He serves them.  He doesn't ignore their suffering, even when He does not take it away.

But I know it was just the first episode and things that look one way might turn out to be another as the show progresses.  I'm trying to remember that this show is ultimately for entertainment and isn't trying to teach truth, nor is it capable of really doing so.

Speaking to the idea that we need to challenge our assumptions about God however, I think that that is a very interesting and good idea. It's one of the best parts of the series in my opinion.  But, it's portrayal of how the Messiah will manifest Himself, and who He will be, should also be challenged, in my opinion.     

This is a good example- When you suggest that Christ wouldn't "physically push people" (I don't actually remember that from the episode but I'll trust you're right), we do know that Christ upended tables at the temple and that he showed anger. In his temple outburst were there likely people there who said "The Messiah would never behave in such a way."? I suspect there were.

Or it 'appears' as if he has no love or concern for the plight of the people when he doesn't do what we think he should do, but I wonder if Jesus healed every single sick person or fed every hungry person he came across. I doubt it. I think Jesus was somewhat selective in the timing of when he performed miracles. What looks to us like neglect, may be an example of the messiah waiting for the proper timing of God, so that he is truly doing God's will and not performing miracles to look good, or because it's what others expect of him. In the show, the messiah does not seem concerned with doing anything to please or meet the expectations of others, only God.

[Meadowchik]

On 1/7/2020 at 4:54 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

There is a new series on Netflix called Messiah. It's essentially a modern take on what it might be like if a Messiah figure came on the scene in today's world. Even though this figure does nothing dangerous or even inappropriate, the level of fear generated because of the numbers of people who begin following him get the attention of the CIA, Mossad, etc. It's really quite fascinating to see the depiction of both faith and fear generated after this Messiah performs miracles, and it strikes me as a fairly accurate portrayal of the different types of human responses we might expect to see. It's a fairly intense/suspenseful show and there is some language. But it is fascinating.

On top of the general concept of a Messiah figure into today's geo-political landscape, there is an LDS President of the United States who wrestles with the politics and religious elements of the situation. At one point the President is speaking to this rogue Messiah, incredulous at what he is being asked to do, and the messiah asks him "Do you not believe in the coming of One Mighty and Strong?"  He gets the President to think about more than just the politics.

Not only does it make me stop and think about how I might respond to a modern Messiah, but the political fear generated helps me appreciate a little bit more what it must have been like for the religious and political leaders of Jesus' day.

Has anyone else seen this? Thoughts?

I have seen the ads and wasn't sure if I could muster enough interest for something that serious in my free time (I get enough of that sort of tension in discussions here  ) So maybe I'll alternate days!

But seriously, I think it is too easy to separate oneself from scriptural cannon, resulting sometimes in all its 20-20 hindsight, rather than really appreciating the struggles occurring. I think that any story is more meaningful when it is personalisable at some level. So this sounds like a very worthwhile exercise, to envision a Messianic figure appearing in a relatable context. 

Of course I don't think it can be done without exposing some biases of the creators, so I'm also curious about what if any spiritual conclusions are implied or drawn. If I can watch it, I'll come back to this and compare notes!

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is a good example- When you suggest that Christ wouldn't "physically push people" (I don't actually remember that from the episode but I'll trust you're right), we do know that Christ upended tables at the temple and that he showed anger. In his temple outburst were there likely people there who said "The Messiah would never behave in such a way."? I suspect there were.

Though I doubt there were people there who believed that the Messiah wouldn't ever show anger (they did believe He was going to physically overthrow a government after all), I do get what you are saying.  But where is the line?  Maybe that's something the show is going to focus on the next season, who knows, but the show has gotten me thinking....

When David Koresh was not the Messiah that people expected, was the willingness of some to leave all of their expectations behind good or bad?  Having expectations, or beliefs, about who Christ is and how He will show Himself is not all bad.  I get that the show focuses on how expectations can hold us back, but can they also keep us safe from those who are trying to deceive us?  

All interesting ideas.  I look forward to watching more of the show.

Quote

Or it 'appears' as if he has no love or concern for the plight of the people when he doesn't do what we think he should do, but I wonder if Jesus healed every single sick person or fed every hungry person he came across. I doubt it. I think Jesus was somewhat selective in the timing of when he performed miracles. What looks to us like neglect, may be an example of the messiah waiting for the proper timing of God, so that he is truly doing God's will and not performing miracles to look good, or because it's what others expect of him. In the show, the messiah does not seem concerned with doing anything to please or meet the expectations of others, only God.

Or, the Messiah on the show is a fraud or a crazy person who is really good at manipulating people.  Hopefully season two will give more answers.  I'm not in as much of a hurry to watch all of season one now that I know that the question doesn't get resolved at the end but hopefully the show will answer that question eventually.